Socially Doctrinal Vs Doctrinal

[thatjimguy]

Hey again,

 

I once talked to a member of the bishopric that told me that not everything Mormons do is doctrinal, but ends up seeming like it because it just got popular. If you could shed light on some things for me (and references if you got em) I would like that.

 

 

Example: Suit and tie to deliver sacrement - Doctrinal or not?

[Storm Rider]

Of course it is not doctrine; if a local bishop wants everyone to wear a white shirt and a solid black tie to pass, prepare, and bless the Sacrament, then that is the policy one follows to participate as a priesthood holder.  The concept is to learn obedience and humility.

 

We have little "doctrine" that directs social policies in the Church. The WofW is a temporal teaching and it will exist as presently taught until a prophet says we will revert to the original parameters of the 89 Section or whatever else is chosen as direction. The leadership tries the best they can to direct the saints in righteousness and sometimes, imo, get a little carried away (only white shirts, etc.).

 

You will find our doctrine in the Scriptures and their appendages i.e. 13 AofF, Proclamations, etc.

[Doctrine 612]

There are doctrines, principles, and applications. We are told to teach the first two, and the third is up to everyone else in how they are fulfilled. We should be careful not to tell others how to apply the teachings.

Using your example of passing the sacrament, the rule is you wear a white shirt if possible but it is not required.

[thesometimesaint]

As in all things let's not get too Pharisaical.

[Stone holm]

Hey again,

 

I once talked to a member of the bishopric that told me that not everything Mormons do is doctrinal, but ends up seeming like it because it just got popular. If you could shed light on some things for me (and references if you got em) I would like that.

 

 

Example: Suit and tie to deliver sacrement - Doctrinal or not?

There is doctrine and then there is image control. The Church wants to project a certain middle class image and show they have respect for things like the Sacrament. In cultures where ties are not part of the culture, then you may see different attire. But what you wear to Church is not something that should be elevated to the level of doctrine, it's not part of our belief system.

[thatjimguy]

Thanks for the answer to that one everyone. Does anyone have a social mormon doctrine that may not be?

[Hamba Tuhan]

f a local bishop wants everyone to wear a white shirt and a solid black tie to pass, prepare, and bless the Sacrament, then that is the policy one follows to participate as a priesthood holder.

 

Actually, the Church Handbook specifically forbids a bishop making such requirements.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan

[canard78]

Thanks for the answer to that one everyone. Does anyone have a social mormon doctrine that may not be?

Beards are banned

Right hand to take the sacrament

Don't stand up for any hymns

White bread for the sacrament

Women don't pray in sacrament/general conference (former was ended in 1978, latter in 2012)

Jesus was born on 6th April

[BCSpace]

Does anyone have a social mormon doctrine that may not be?

 

That women are more spiritual than men.

[canard78]

That women are more spiritual than men.

Ah, but now that one really is right

[thatjimguy]

Actually, the Church Handbook specifically forbids a bishop making such requirements.

 

 

I was trying to look that up, what page is it on?

[canard78]

I was trying to look that up, what page is it on?

Those who bless and pass the sacrament should dress modestly and be well groomed and clean. Clothing or jewelry should not call attention to itself or distract members during the sacrament. Ties and white shirts are recommended because they add to the dignity of the ordinance. However, they should not be required as a mandatory prerequisite for a priesthood holder to participate. Nor should it be required that all be alike in dress and appearance. Bishops should use discretion when giving such guidance to young men, taking into account their financial circumstances and maturity in the Church.

http://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/priesthood-ordinances-and-blessings/20.4#204

[Stargazer]

Beards are banned

Right hand to take the sacrament

Don't stand up for any hymns

White bread for the sacrament - Gosh I wish they would stick to white bread.  We get some very goofy breads sometimes, with seeds, and other stuff.

Women don't pray in sacrament/general conference (former was ended in 1978, latter in 2012)

Jesus was born on 6th April

[Hamba Tuhan]

 Gosh I wish they would stick to white bread.  We get some very goofy breads sometimes, with seeds, and other stuff.

 

I once had a clueless American branch president in Indonesia who, when he realised there was no sacrament bread, ran out to buy some from a street vendor, but because he couldn't speak a word of the language despite several years in the country, came back with chocoloate-filled bread rolls ... discovered only when the poor priests began breaking them.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan

[canard78]

White bread for the sacrament - Gosh I wish they would stick to white bread. We get some very goofy breads sometimes, with seeds, and other stuff.

Lol

My Dad on the other hand has always had a bee in his bonnet about all the junk and impurities that goes into white bread and how brown bread is more wholesome and more like what was used 2000 years ago.

But I agree that getting a big sesame seed stuck in your teeth is a bit distracting.

[canard78]

I once had a clueless American branch president in Indonesia who, when he realised there was no sacrament bread, ran out to buy some from a street vendor, but because he couldn't speak a word of the language despite several years in the country, came back with chocoloate-filled bread rolls ... discovered only when the poor priests began breaking them.

Lol, I miss the random filled rolls of East Asia. Always a lottery when you can't speak the language.

[thatjimguy]

Those who bless and pass the sacrament should dress modestly and be well groomed and clean. Clothing or jewelry should not call attention to itself or distract members during the sacrament. Ties and white shirts are recommended because they add to the dignity of the ordinance. However, they should not be required as a mandatory prerequisite for a priesthood holder to participate. Nor should it be required that all be alike in dress and appearance. Bishops should use discretion when giving such guidance to young men, taking into account their financial circumstances and maturity in the Church.

 

 

 

Now when it comes to this, it's pretty much implying that if someone was spriitually mature they would wear the suit and tie. See the thing is, I come from Erie, PA. It's pretty blue collar all around. Even our high class are low middle class. We dress nice for funerals, but our idea of nice is a better shirt with unripped jeans. We dont have a really good view of suits. They are the enemy to the blue collar man. When you meet a guy in a suit, it's rarely a happy occasion. It's not that we do not value respect, its that we have the feeling "come as you are".

[Stargazer]

Lol

My Dad on the other hand has always had a bee in his bonnet about all the junk and impurities that goes into white bread and how brown bread is more wholesome and more like what was used 2000 years ago.

But I agree that getting a big sesame seed stuck in your teeth is a bit distracting.

 

Well, I am no great fan of white bread, particularly, just that it's like a box of chocolates: you never know what you're going to get. 

 

Anyway, I would prefer a good whole wheat bread.  Without a bunch of distracting add-ons. 

 

But hey, it's the Sacrament, right?  No worries.

[Storm Rider]

Actually, the Church Handbook specifically forbids a bishop making such requirements.

And yet we see some pretty strange things taking root in the Church as a result of the directions of local leadership. A perfect world is one where everyone follows the dictates of the handbook without exceptions. Thank God I don't live in that world; I would rather deal with the consequences of independent action than dealing with the alternative.

[Hamba Tuhan]

Now when it comes to this, it's pretty much implying that if someone was spriitually mature they would wear the suit and tie.

I think you're reading too much into it. To me it appearts to be cautioning bishops against offending those who are new in the Church just by recommending something that can't be required.

I come from Erie, PA. It's pretty blue collar all around.

When I was most recently staying in America, I attended a ward where almost every single member of the elders quorum was in new jeans and a yoke-backed shirt. One of the priests blessing the sacrament was wearing a green plaid flannelette shirt. You're not alone. It's all good.

[Hamba Tuhan]

A perfect world is one where everyone follows the dictates of the handbook without exceptions. Thank God I don't live in that world.

I served one-quarter of my mission in a singles ward where everyone simply followed the handbook. It was brilliant. I've never seen a more effective ward, and I never experienced more success as a missionary. To each his own, I guess.

[Storm Rider]

I served one-quarter of my mission in a singles ward where everyone simply followed the handbook. It was brilliant. I've never seen a more effective ward, and I never experienced more success as a missionary. To each his own, I guess.

 

I once had a companionship where we just followed the Spirit; it was the most successful companionship I ever experienced.  More importantly, we were able to bear testimony to so many people that then took it upon themselves to take upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ as Lord and Master. Never looked at a handbook, never thought of following the rules; our daily actions was built on the Spirit. Yes, I would say to each his own.

 

I suspect you get the difference I was intending? I am not interested in following the Law of Moses or following any group that does. If one is looking for assistance in teaching proper governance, then a handbook is valuable. If you looking to build strong followers of Christ; you teach them to follow the Spirit first and allow all else to line up under that single directive.  I think that is exactly what the handbook teaches, no?

[Hamba Tuhan]

If you looking to build strong followers of Christ; you teach them to follow the Spirit first and allow all else to line up under that single directive.  I think that is exactly what the handbook teaches, no?

So then you do believe in simply following the handbook, no?

[JLHPROF]

Beards are banned

Right hand to take the sacrament

Don't stand up for any hymns

White bread for the sacrament

Women don't pray in sacrament/general conference (former was ended in 1978, latter in 2012)

Jesus was born on 6th April

 

Well, I think that the Right Hand and the April 6th ones may actually have some doctrinal truth behind them.  But as previous threads have shown, that's impossible to proved doctrinally.

The others don't seem to have any significance doctrinally.

[Stone holm]

Beards are banned

Right hand to take the sacrament

Don't stand up for any hymns

White bread for the sacrament

Women don't pray in sacrament/general conference (former was ended in 1978, latter in 2012)

Jesus was born on 6th April

Well the beard thing was thanks to the 20th Century Revolutionaries sporting beards, we wanted to demonstrate that we were part of the Establishment so off with the beards, supposedly when the proudly crew cut bearing BRM was challenged about the fact Christ had a beard, he reputedly replied, "He doesn't now!"