Startling New Church Video

[Rob Osborn]

This has oft amazed me. From week to week in our family run business we constantly pray about big decisions to make and almost always there is mixed answers we recieve sometimes coming to exactly opposite conclusions or feelings. This has oft made me wonder just what is going on because why else would we be getting different answers?

 

I have thus developed a theory of sorts as to what is possibly happening. First off is our own perception and feeling of the spirit- its different for most people. Second is that even though we may indeed pray for everything under the stars, the Lord doesnt have to respond in the manner we are looking for or even respond at all. And last- perhaps we recieve feelings that are misinterpreted- we havent focused enough on it and thus its like looking through a dark glass. I honestly believe that the Lord never would lead us down the wrong path if it is exactly what we are praying for. If I am praying to know which fork in the road to take and I feel good about the one after prayer and it turns out to be the wrong one perhaps I didnt focus enough or perhaps I misinterpreted my feelings. Let me explain a little more-

 

We had a string of engines that were leaving our shop that failed in the first 50 miles- very expensive engines. We began praying fervently about it and each time we would get feelings about this or that, almost always having to do with something centered around the oil being the culprit. Three engines later- same problem- over and over again. Everything from improper oil clearances to dirty conditions in the build process. At the height of this dilemma it became rather confrontational between ourselves as to the problem. I honestly believe the whole time the Lord was leading us to find the problem but because of our lack of true humble focus and well thought out consensus, we just were coming to opposite answers to our many many prayers. We even went so far as to question the oil companies thinking it was their fault. Whats interesting here is that we had all received answers to our prayers that it was something to do with debris in the connecting rod journals. Turns out (some 50,000$ dollars later in warranty redo) we had changed machinists who was sandblasting the rods and not cleaning out thoroughly the small passageway between the big to small end. Sure, we were blowing that passageway out ourselves but small micro pieces of sand were getting dislodged when the engine ran and then were getting washed out through the oil clearance surface between the bearing and crankshaft wiping out the bearing surface rather quickly. To this day it is still somewhat of a heated debate in our shop as to what was really the problem even though now we havent had a single engine come back with that problem.

 

The short answer here is that the Lord did indeed show us or guide us in the right direction but because of our own stubborness, lack of true humble focus, etc, it was just the classic case of trying to see through a dark glass. One more quick story-

 

I was having some trouble welding some panels that had to be real nice. I prayed and prayed about it and would keep getting the impression of cleanliness. So, I kept cleaning my tip of the welder, the metal, etc. etc and nothing was working. I came in the third day of this trial and cleaned up my mess and was sitting there at the clean weld table and it suddenly dawned on me that in my haste of doing this my surroundings were getting messy and my thoughts were thus foggy. With the clean surroundings and table I was able to resort back to my class at the local college and how important it was to have a clean working place, clear thoughts and to relax and not rush. I tried again and it welded perfectly. My lesson here was that of course the Lord did show me but I had misinterpreted the "cleanliness" part. It wasnt the material I was welding that needed to be cleaned it was my surroundings that needed cleaning so that I could properly and calmly focus on the task at hand. This has beena great lesson to me since then as to not misinterpret and to better focus. All those little things add up preventing us to see clearly the Lords perfect and never waivering answer when he does indeed give it to us.

 

Short and simple- the Lord will never lead us down the wrong path if it is something we specifically ask for.

[Rob Osborn]

Here's a telling of the story from the son's perspective:

 

http://www.lds.org/new-era/2005/07/wrong-roads-and-revelation

 

 

 

I find the idea of an apostle teaching that sometimes we are given the "wrong" answer to prayer to be a little disturbing.

 

Extrapolate and explain it any way you like, the "spirit" is supposed to convey truth, not error.  If people are receiving wrong information from the spirit, even for a greater purpose, that really changes a lot of things.

 

Person A (including Church leaders): You can believe me, because the Spirit has confirmed it.

 

Person B: No, it's possible that you were mislead for a greater purpose. I understand the greater purpose, and see the error, so you're still wrong.

 

As far as I can tell, the best explanation for someone receiving a "wrong" answer to a prayer was that they misunderstood the answer, or didn't actually get one.  In other words, it was their fault.  We would have expected Elder Holland to tell his son that they were both mistaken, and sometimes people think they're getting revelation but really aren't.

 

Saying they received an authentic spiritual confirmation for the wrong path is totally different.

There have been times when listening to a talk at church or in class, even by someone of high authority, that I have felt that what they were saying wasnt the words of the Lord or spirit, just their own musings and then they testified to its truthfulness. I honestly believe that we sometimes speak and believe things that are not inspired by the Lord but somehow believe they are at the time.

[Rob Osborn]

I also believe that God lets us walk blindly for a time before he shows us the right way or allows us to find that right way on our own and then he confirms at that time it is right. This can help us become more dependant on our own intelligence already within us (that light of Christ)

[Buckeye]

I find the idea of an apostle teaching that sometimes we are given the "wrong" answer to prayer to be a little disturbing.

 

 

Isn't there a statement from Joseph about some revelations being from God and some from the adversary?  I think he said it in response to a revelation to sell the copyright to the BOM or something else he regretted.

[Calm]

This will help you confirm what you know to be right for you.....

I often am told what is wrong and not what is right. The choices I have made that I felt good about but turned out to be wrong taught me a lot about discernment which I lacked. A friend of mine wanted all his life to be a school teacher. It turned out to be a disaster, so he became a librarian. He has no regrets, only wisdom.

I believe that one of the main reasons we are here in life is not just to be tried, but to find out what we value most, what is more important to us and in fact this is the purpose of us being tried because we will endure in what we desire more than what we don't...what is our Will so to speak so that we know if we truly want to link our own desires with the desires of the Father for us.  I believe that it is likely that in the Father's presence, he is so magnificent, etc. that for most of us we would just agree with everything he says (much like children agree with what their parents want for them when young, but have different ideas when they grow up and move out of the house and away from the constant influence of their opinions and desires).  If we are going to be making choices for our eternal destinies, then the Father wants to ensure for us that it is ultimately our choice and desires we pursue and not his, because he loves us so much that he is willing to step back and let us make that choice for ourselves.

Edited November 7, 2013 by calmoriah

[David T]

I find the idea of an apostle teaching that sometimes we are given the "wrong" answer to prayer to be a little disturbing. Extrapolate and explain it any way you like, the "spirit" is supposed to convey truth, not error.  If people are receiving wrong information from the spirit, even for a greater purpose, that really changes a lot of things.

 

I don't think this is what Holland is trying to say. I think the suggestion is that the "right answer" might be to first go down and experience the dead end of another path, in order to strengthen conviction of the other. I can think of circumstances where individuals, having immediately chosen the ultimately correct course of action, would still be halted by wonderings of "what if", or a lack of full conviction and action, based on that 'what if'. But having had an experience to show exactly where the opposite path would have (and in fact did) lead, what was formerly just one possible option would be clearly understood as THE way.

 

I'm not saying this model is without need for concern, but it's misrepresenting to say he said "God will lead you to make the wrong decision" - the suggestion, as I see it,  being that the ultimate goal is to get the individual not just to the correct end place, but in a way that will foster strength and conviction to it when it is arrived at. That heading down the initial dead-end path was part of an ultimately best-possible beneficial outcome and conversion. It was a longer and detour-filled journey, not the big-picture wrong journey.

[Calm]

Isn't there a statement from Joseph about some revelations being from God and some from the adversary?  I think he said it in response to a revelation to sell the copyright to the BOM or something else he regretted.

Highly debatable now the actual revelation has been uncovered through the JSP project...

 

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Attempt_to_sell_copyright

 

The primary evidence supporting the negative aspects of the Canadian Mission story come from David Whitmer, who was not a participant in the event, and who had left the church many years before. With the discovery of the Hiram Page letter of 1848 showing that the actual participants involved in the trip felt that Joseph Smith delivered an accurate revelation of what would transpire on the Mission, and in fact even found the event uplifting rather than negative, it is evident that no individual contemporary to the event felt that this represented a false prophecy by Joseph Smith. What we do see is excellent evidence in fulfillment of the teachings of Deuteronomy 12 and 18 that Joseph Smith was perceived as a true prophet of God by those involved in the Mission to Canada in early 1830.

 

 

 

Another interesting development from work on the Revelations and Translations Series has been the identification of a previously unpublished revelation on securing a copyright for the Book of Mormon in Canada. David Whitmer, after he left the Church, recalled that the revelation promised success in selling the copyright, but upon return of the men charged with the duty, Joseph Smith and others were disappointed by what seemed like failure. Historians have relied upon statements of David Whitmer, Hiram Page, and William McLellin for decades but have not had the actual text of the revelation. Revelation Book 1 will provide that. Although we still do not know the whole story, particularly Joseph Smith’s own view of the situation, we do know that calling the divine communication a “failed revelation” is not warranted. The Lord’s directive clearly conditions the successful sale of the copyright on the worthiness of those seeking to make the sale as well as on the spiritual receptivity of the potential purchasers. ^[1]

 

 

 

[pogi]

"The Lord gave me the wrong answer, so that I would see it was wrong, so I could then get the right path more quickly."  Huh?

 

 

OK, so I didn't draw the same conclusion as he did.  I have to agree with David.  There is something to be said for going down the wrong path.  This is fundamental to the principle of "good, better, best"

 

You have misquoted him here.  He never said he gave him the "wrong answer,"  he said that he sent him down the "wrong road", which for them, happened to be the best answer for them to assure them of the right way.  God could have told them to take the correct road, but he saved them from worrying wether they made the right decision.  It was a merciful answer.  Some of those desert roads can go on for days and days where all the landscape starts to look the same.  Choosing a wrong road in a dessert can be a deadly mistake.  God blessed them with this slight detour to give them comfort and assurance that they are on the right path.  

 

The "wrong" road, in this case, is not a metaphor for sin or deviation from the straight and narrow, but it is used to show that the Lord will bless us with assurance and comfort that he is watching over us if and when we follow his voice by means that are unquestionable and possibly even surprising.  Too many people are getting caught up on the word "wrong."  For them, it was the right way to give them the assurance they wanted. 

 

The actual quote is, "I think that the Lord, His wish for us there, and his answer to our prayer was to get us on the right road as quickly as possible with some reassurance, with some understanding, that we were on the right road and we didn't have to worry about it, and in this case, the easiest way to do that was to let us go 400 yards or 500 yards on the wrong road, and very quickly know, without a doubt, that it was the wrong road, and therefore with equal certainty with equal conviction that the other one was the right road."

Edited November 7, 2013 by pogi

[Calm]

I don't think this is what Holland is trying to say. I think the suggestion is that the "right answer" might be to first go down and experience the dead end of another path, in order to strengthen conviction of the other. I can think of circumstances where individuals, having immediately chosen the ultimately correct course of action, would still be halted by wonderings of "what if", or a lack of full conviction and action, based on that 'what if'. But having had an experience to show exactly where the opposite path would have (and in fact did) lead, what was formerly just one possible option would be clearly understood as THE way.

I have my own experience to use an analogy.  When I chose my college major, I wanted to go into physics and astronomy but my dad persuaded me to alter it to electrical engineering because he believed that there were few jobs available in my desired path.  Well, later on I found out not only he was very wrong...as a woman at the time I would have been guaranteed a job and possibly any job I wanted if I was as good as everyone told me I was, but that I hated EE.  When I found out the second I still believed what he had said about job opportunities so I switched to psychology, my second love, instead of back to my first.  It still hurts when I realized the lost opportunity as there is a hole in my life due to losing one of my dreams, but in the long run I have found out that there are more important things to me that I was able to find through my ultimate choice and that was my family since I met my husband in my psych classes where I would never have encountered him otherwise.  And knowing now what I know about what my health was going to be like, I needed a man like my husband (a very rare type of individual from what I've seen) much more than I needed knowledge about creation and stars and worlds without end in this lifetime.  And the children he has given me prove to me that going down the wrong path of EE originally put me where it was much easier for me to make the choices I wanted to ultimately, that my second love--learning about people---is much more important to me than learning about what surrounds all those people even if there is more sense of excitment for me in the first field.

 

I also learned that it was much more important for me to make up my own mind by searching out the truth of things rather than depending on others even if I trust them to supply me with ideas and choices because even those I view as ultimate authorities at the time are human and therefore may be wrong.  And I think my life has been much better having learned not to be swayed so easily by others earlier in my life than later.

[Scott Lloyd]

I find the idea of an apostle teaching that sometimes we are given the "wrong" answer to prayer to be a little disturbing.

 

 

It's easier for me to grasp if I think of it in terms of God answering what should have been asked instead of what was asked. It's my conviction that, in His mercy and wisdom, He does so from time to time.

 

In this case the request that was answered, whether asked or not in so many words, was "Help us to find the right road." They did find it in a way that put them at ease and spared them worry and fear, as Elder Holland noted.

 

Or, as Matt Holland put it in the link you provided:

 

 

We had prayed that we could make it safely home that day, and we did.

 

Edited November 7, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

 Choosing a wrong road in a dessert can be a deadly mistake.  

 

Isn't that the truth.  I still regret those extra two pounds from going back to the dessert buffet at Great America 27 years ago that started my path down into dieting hell.  The cream puffs just weren't worth it. 

Edited November 7, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

 

The actual quote is, "I think that the Lord, His wish for us there, and his answer to our prayer was to get us on the right road as quickly as possible with some reassurance, with some understanding, that we were on the right road and we didn't have to worry about it, and in this case, the easiest way to do that was to let us go 400 yards or 500 yards on the wrong road, and very quickly know, without a doubt, that it was the wrong road, and therefore with equal certainty with equal conviction that the other one was the right road."

I think there are many times where it is important that we be able to give our full heart, body and soul to our efforts and if we are secondguessing ourselves, this can be fatal to our efforts.  Knowing what the other choices would result in can allow us to give that level of commitment that is needed.

[pogi]

Isn't that the truth.  I still regret those extra two pounds from going back to the dessert buffet at Great America 27 years ago that started my path down into dieting hell.

Lol!  Nice one!  Funny, I used the correct spelling in the sentence before.  The chocolate cake in my fridge must have distracted me. 

[jwhitlock]

Interesting video. In this particular case, I suspect that if the Lord had told them to take the left road, that they might have - down that road - wondered if they were really on the right track, and then turned around, gone all the way back to the right hand road, found the dead end, and ended up back on the left hand road after having wasted a great deal of time. In this case, with the Lord knowing all thing in advance, He saved them a great deal of time and uncertainty by letting them resolve that certainty in the beginning, so that they could progress along the correct road without doubt.

 

I believe that there's a significant principle being taught here, where the Lord gives us early on the opportunity to resolve doubts when it comes to particular events so we are better equipped later on to address those same doubts in more trying situations. I've found that to be true in my own life, where the Lord provides adversity in controlled situations to allow us to resolve certain things and "get it out of us", so to speak. I don't think that process ever ends in this life; we sometimes need to be guided down detours in order to prune us and strengthen us. The road needs to be bumpy; if we were only provided with a smooth road where the Spirit always clearly told us the "right" path to take, I don't think we'd come out of this temporal existence much stronger or wiser than when we entered it.

[Calm]

Lol!  Nice one!  Funny, I used the correct spelling in the sentence before.  The chocolate cake in my fridge must have distracted me. 

Chocolate will do that to you.

[Robert F. Smith]

Wrong Roads

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNQC-_srxH8

 

 

Elder Holland recounts an experience with his son regarding an answer to prayer.  But it's not what you think it is.

 

Before I make a comment, I want to see what you think.

Everybody wants a "pony."  Hugh Nibley told me that a "pony" is of no value and that you'll never learn anything by using one.  Easy for him to say, I guess, but the lesson is that we are here largely on our own, learning from the school of hard knocks.  

 

Like Oliver Cowdery, some of us want the answers directly from God without having to even think about it.  Take a look at the experimental method indicated in Alma 32.  Next time someone claims that the prophet is infallible and that he has all the answers, give Elder Holland's recollections equal time, and try to understand the real human condition.  This is a test.  God gave us the wherewithal.  So use it.

[strappinglad]

Hence my siggy.

[Tiki]

I guess all of you missed the gun racks and the NRA sticker on the back window. You must be Easterners.

[Tiki]

Wrong Roads and Revelations:

http://www.lds.org/new-era/2005/07/wrong-roads-and-revelation?lang=eng&query=Wrong+roads+and+revelations

-------

"He continued, “The Lord has taught us an important lesson today. Because we were prompted to take the road to the left, we quickly discovered which one was the right one. When we turned around and got on the right road, I was able to travel along its many unfamiliar twists and turnoffs perfectly confident I was headed in the right direction.

“If we had started on the right road, we might have driven for 30 minutes or so, become uneasy with the unfamiliar surroundings, and been tempted to turn back. If we had done that, we would have discovered the dead-end so late that it would have been too dark to find our way back in totally unfamiliar territory.”

---------

Also see the comment on youtube about the actors and the truck.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Tiki

[Thinking]

I took the wrong road once while trying out a shortcut in the middle of Nevada. The map showed a road that would save me about ten miles. It was paved so I took it. Pretty soon it was dirt, then it faded into the desert. When I turned around to go back I couldn't find the original road. I turned back around and drove north, knowing that I would eventually cross the highway that was going west to east. I found it, and continued my journey. I love my 4WD Dodge Ram.

[cinepro]

“If we had started on the right road, we might have driven for 30 minutes or so, become uneasy with the unfamiliar surroundings, and been tempted to turn back. If we had done that, we would have discovered the dead-end so late that it would have been too dark to find our way back in totally unfamiliar territory.”

 

 

If they had received a spiritual confirmation for the right road, why would a future apostle doubt it after 30 minutes? 

 

I find that really odd.

[The Nehor]

If they had received a spiritual confirmation for the right road, why would a future apostle doubt it after 30 minutes? 

 

I find that really odd.

 

Why assume future apostles are somehow free of doubt?

 

Also, if God had given him the right road we would not have the video. God plans these things in advance you know. He's a clever one.

[Tiki]

If they had received a spiritual confirmation for the right road, why would a future apostle doubt it after 30 minutes? 

 

I find that really odd.

Maybe for the same reason the Prophet Lehi murmured when his sons returned without food.

Or Jonas fled on a ship. Or Peter denied thrice. They learned the unhappiness of their direction and returned to the correct path more confident than ever.

The article: 'Of course, He would never lead us down a path of sin, but He might lead us down a road of valuable experience."

[Tiki]

I took the wrong road once while trying out a shortcut in the middle of Nevada. The map showed a road that would save me about ten miles. It was paved so I took it. Pretty soon it was dirt, then it faded into the desert. When I turned around to go back I couldn't find the original road. I turned back around and drove north, knowing that I would eventually cross the highway that was going west to east. I found it, and continued my journey. I love my 4WD Dodge Ram.

Trucks are great, I own one. But I have driven a Nissan Maxima passenger car to within 5 feet of the North Rim of the Grand Canyon outside of the Park but within the Kaibab National Forest. Get a map, you can figure it out. I guess that's why the video and the article were compelling.

The article talks of the Grand Canyon, but the video is of Bryce Canyon or Cedar Breaks National Monument.

Thanks for posting it! A great message.

[Freedom]

If they had received a spiritual confirmation for the right road, why would a future apostle doubt it after 30 minutes? 

 

I find that really odd.

because revelation doesn't work that way. Revelation is not about being told what to do, it is about teaching us to be self sufficient. Revelation comes after a trial of faith.