cdowis Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 Wrong Roads http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNQC-_srxH8 Elder Holland recounts an experience with his son regarding an answer to prayer. But it's not what you think it is. Before I make a comment, I want to see what you think.
Freedom Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 Starling? This is a very simple and basic doctrine - we learn line upon line and through trial and error. We learn through acting and until we act, we will never know what is right. If we have two choices and we try one and it works, we will never know if the other one is the better choice. If we try one and it does not work, we will know with absolute certainty that the other one is the better choice.
cdowis Posted November 7, 2013 Author Posted November 7, 2013 This is not a matter of trial and error == both of them got the same answer, and the answer was "wrong". 1
Senator Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 This is not a matter of trial and error == both of them got the same answer, and the answer was "wrong". I think it speaks to the reality of the plan of having to know(to some level) the good from the evil; not just knowing about it. 1
cdowis Posted November 7, 2013 Author Posted November 7, 2013 I think you are on to something. Keep going.
Freedom Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 This is not a matter of trial and error == both of them got the same answer, and the answer was "wrong". It was trial and error. God teaches through trial and error. God will encourage us to make a choice that is wrong so that we can learn from it. It was not the wrong answer, it was a confirmation of what was the right answer. If they traveled down the other road, and drove down it for 30 minutes, they would never have been certain if it was the right path.
halconero Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 Sometimes we have to start down a path that, while not evil, isn't for us. It is only in undertaking that journey that we realize that much better options are available. 1
daz2 Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 that they may learn the good from the evil. and if we yield wrongly, we have a savior.
cdowis Posted November 7, 2013 Author Posted November 7, 2013 Ok, sometimes we learn from taking detours. I remember when the church changed the mission time to 18 months for elders, but that did not turn out very well. Perhaps another lesson is ==>> why don't you just try something instead of asking Me. 1
ksfisher Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 God will encourage us to make a choice that is wrong so that we can learn from it. Perhaps I'm taking more away from this than you are intending, but are you saying that God encourages me to make wrong choices? So any of the wrong choices I make, if I felt God wanted me to make them, I can blame on Him?
Buckeye Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) I think the concern comes when one extrapolates to mistakes with much bigger consequences than just going down the wrong road for a few minutes. What about trying heroin, infidelity, or genocide. Could the spirit direct you to commit these mistakes as learning experiences? Or what if the spiritual confirmation to praying about the BOM was just a wrong turn? After you go down that road for 20 years you realize, "nuts, I should have been a baptist all along." As for my answer. I don't doubt Elder's Holland and his son's experience. They are the best to judge what the reason for the "false" impression was. I'm glad Elder Holland has come to terms with the experience, though I'm not sure his answer is the required answer for everyone or even that he will not come to an additional conclusion some time down the path. After all these years, Elder Holland is still working things out. That's comforting to know. For me, the real message is that sometimes what we feel is inspiration does not turn out to be what we expected. In those instances, don't give up. Make a correction and then try to make sense of the situation rather than throw out the spirit entirely. For example, if you thought that blacks were cursed but then the teaching changed, don't give up. Instead, be glad for the additional light and knowledge. Likewise, if you're confused as to why the church opposes same-sex unions when you've seen the joy and happiness such unions can provide, don't give up. It's a long journey. Edited November 7, 2013 by Buckeye 1
bluebell Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 Perhaps I'm taking more away from this than you are intending, but are you saying that God encourages me to make wrong choices? So any of the wrong choices I make, if I felt God wanted me to make them, I can blame on Him? Maybe Freedom was talking about God encouraging us to make choices that are 'wrong' in that they won't lead to a successful ending that we are expecting, and not 'wrong' as in sinful?
cdowis Posted November 7, 2013 Author Posted November 7, 2013 I think the concern comes when one extrapolates to mistakes with much bigger consequences than just going down the wrong road for a few minutes. What about trying heroin, infidelity, or genocide. As for my answer. I don't doubt Elder's Holland and his son's experience. They are the best to judge what the reason for the "false" impression was. I'm glad Elder Holland has come to terms with the experience, though I'm not sure his answer is the required answer for everyone or even that he will not come to an additional conclusion some time down the path. After all these years, Elder Holland is still working things out. That's comforting to know. I appreciate that he has shared this experience, and I agree that he is still working it out. That's why I call this "startling" because these talks and videos are usually complete within themselves. I think this is a work in process, and I sense that he may not be completely satisfied with his conclusion. There is a lesson to be learned, but exactly what is it. And does that lesson change over time and experience as he looks back on it.
Freedom Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 Perhaps I'm taking more away from this than you are intending, but are you saying that God encourages me to make wrong choices? So any of the wrong choices I make, if I felt God wanted me to make them, I can blame on Him? Yes. Now a wrong choice is different from willful disobedience. We are not talking about moral choices, but practical day to day live choices. In scientific investigation, the researcher must test out the wrong options as well to confirm that they are wrong and to find out why they are wrong. When dating, date a variety of people, even those who may not be compatible. This will help you confirm what you know to be right for you. If you do not know whether to have a blue wall or a pink wall, just pick a color. Then you will know and once you paint it to the other color, you will have no doubt that you made the write choice. God is not telling you to do anything, he is telling you that you are on the right tract. If He were to tell you what to do, there would be no agency. This is a common misconception of how revelation works. If you pray about choosing a career and you feel good about becoming a sales rep which turns out to be a lousy job, God did not trick you, He is simply saying 'I think you trying this out would be a good experience for you'. He is a parent. A good parent will support their children unless the choice is really bad. God does not really care what job you have or who you married. Like a good parent, he will let you know if he approves of your choices. My son wants to go into business administration but for his first year of college he ended up taking 4 political science classes. I advised him that he can learn all he wants about this course material for free by going to the library and I advised him to focus on courses that he needs rather than courses he is interested in. So he took courses that were relevant to his plans. And they were quite diverse. He still took a poli sci course which he enjoyed, but he fell in love with another area of study that he only took because it was the only one left available. I often am told what is wrong and not what is right. The choices I have made that I felt good about but turned out to be wrong taught me a lot about discernment which I lacked. A friend of mine wanted all his life to be a school teacher. It turned out to be a disaster, so he became a librarian. He has no regrets, only wisdom. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 This is a very beautiful story and an enlightening message. For me personally, it helps clarify some things. I do have a mild objection to the manner in which it was portrayed. This is quite clearly a re-enactment with actors portraying Elder Holland and his son. But there is an obvious effort to make it seem like a primitive, 8 mm type "home movie". Clearly it was not. I find this to be disingenuous. If there had been a very brief disclaimer, either at the beginning or the end, that this was a re-enactment, I would feel better about it. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 I appreciate that he has shared this experience, and I agree that he is still working it out. That's why I call this "startling" because these talks and videos are usually complete within themselves. I think this is a work in process, and I sense that he may not be completely satisfied with his conclusion. There is a lesson to be learned, but exactly what is it. And does that lesson change over time and experience as he looks back on it.How is he "still working it out"? I didn't get that. To me, it seems he has drawn a very clear and sensible conclusion from the experience.
ksfisher Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 Maybe Freedom was talking about God encouraging us to make choices that are 'wrong' in that they won't lead to a successful ending that we are expecting, and not 'wrong' as in sinful? I was careful not to use the word sin for that reason. But, if God were to encourage me to make a choice that was wrong he would be partly responsible for my actions. How then could I trust any inspiration that I receive?
David T Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) A very interesting insight , which also is additionally fascinating to consider when applied to the institutional Church. Maybe one can apply it as a suggested reference to policies and positions held by the Church in the past that are perhaps viewed by some as the brethren as having been allowed so that the leadership and membership could learn for sure by their experience that it was definitely the WRONG Path, leading to a dead-end, and, to use President Uchtdorf's words, "not in harmony with our values, principles or doctrine". It presents a "Yes, we know today with firm conviction that the path, understanding, and policy was ultimately the wrong way, but we don't regret having gone down that path, and now we know by experience even stronger that the New Path is the right one. We are grateful for having gone down the wrong path to understand with greater clarity today the True Path. This is a form of revelation." What's very interesting about this is that it somewhat parallels some of the thoughts I expressed a little over a year ago as to how I might view the life of Brigham Young as modeling a form of revelation that clarified by contrast of experience the true nature of God. See my Review and Musings on Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet. Here's some of my thoughts from that post:As I neared the end of the book, what I found most fascinating was not the details of the life of Brigham himself, but what our reactions to him and his life reveal about our deeply held views of God’s personality and character. Many of the attributes we may find naturally repugnant in Brigham Young’s doings are attributes and actions that have traditionally been ascribed to God for millennia, and are found in our scriptures. God, as presented throughout the scriptural records, was understood and presented as being willing to deceive (1 Kings 22:23), condoning extrajudicial killing and massacres (Numbers 31:17–18) , being inconsistent in his sometimes subjugating (see nearly all laws in Leviticus treating women as property)/sometimes exalting positions on women (see praise of Deborah, Esther), being discriminatory by lineage, employing fiery and harsh rhetoric (see Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel), etc. These were popular divine attributes part and parcel of admitting the Ultimate Sovereignty of God. An encounter with an undiluted Brigham Young is a powerful reality check for our understanding and approach to the scriptural records of God. Joseph Smith took the once-upon-a-time nature and views of Ancient Prophets and Living Scripture, and demanded that we confront them and wrestle with them as a present and practical reality. I see Brigham Young doing much of the same for traditional – and scriptural – expressions of the deeds and sayings of God. If confronted with the Old Testament’s Yahweh in our present reality, as he was literally presented in that record – in broad strokes, would we see him as a Loving Fatherly King, or a Deviant Tyrant? Would we respect him out of love, or out of the Fear of Retribution? Just as there were some who saw God through both lenses, it is fascinating that the same can be applied to Brother Brigham. The relationship between the Saints and Brigham was just as complicated as the relationship between ancient Israel and their God. To me, Brigham fulfilled his role as revelator, not in telling us about God, but by revealing how we all truly do feel about the actual ancient, traditional, scriptural expression of God. While Jesus was sent as a presentation and revelation of the God Who Is, I suggest that Brigham presented a contrasting revelation of the God who the religious world actually claimed to love and worship and adore. While providing extraordinary, necessary, and perhaps miraculous temporal and practical services to the Church and its members, I find the strength in the broad strokes of Brigham’s spiritual ministry to be that he created a sharp contrast which made the ministry of Jesus shine even brighter. His life, most likely unknown to him, was a living parable. In a fascinating way, Brigham’s life and theology paved the way in later years for a strong and lasting reformation of the LDS relationship with and view of the attributes of God. Edited November 7, 2013 by David T 3
cdowis Posted November 7, 2013 Author Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) How is he "still working it out"? I didn't get that. To me, it seems he has drawn a very clear and sensible conclusion from the experience. "The Lord gave me the wrong answer, so that I would see it was wrong, so I could then get the right path more quickly." Huh? OK, so I didn't draw the same conclusion as he did. I have to agree with David. There is something to be said for going down the wrong path. This is fundamental to the principle of "good, better, best" Edited November 7, 2013 by cdowis
bluebell Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 I was careful not to use the word sin for that reason. But, if God were to encourage me to make a choice that was wrong he would be partly responsible for my actions. How then could I trust any inspiration that I receive? But if the choice is not sinful, then what does it matter if God is partly responsible or not? I guess i'm confused by that point. As to your question, the way I look at it is, if God knows that you won't be able to choose a 'right' choice without first experiencing the 'wrong' one, then Him inspiring you in that direction is a blessing. God's not here to make sure we never take a difficult path, or fail, or have to start over. He's here to help us grow and become exactly who He knows we can be. And that's why we know we can always trust His inspiration. We trust in inspiration because we know that God will always do what is best for us (on an eternal timeline), not because we know God will make sure every choice we make is successful. 1
Senator Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 But if the choice is not sinful, then what does it matter if God is partly responsible or not? I guess i'm confused by that point. As to your question, the way I look at it is, if God knows that you won't be able to choose a 'right' choice without first experiencing the 'wrong' one, then Him inspiring you in that direction is a blessing. God's not here to make sure we never take a difficult path, or fail, or have to start over. He's here to help us grow and become exactly who He knows we can be. And that's why we know we can always trust His inspiration. We trust in inspiration because we know that God will always do what is best for us (on an eternal timeline), not because we know God will make sure every choice we make is successful. Is it the "all things work together for the good of them that love Him" idea?
bluebell Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 Is it the "all things work together for the good of them that love Him" idea? I think so. There is a huge part of me that really wishes that when I felt inspired by God to make a choice, that I could trust that that the path is going to be easy and painless. I know that's not what being inspired means though. Inspiration can be very painful, and very difficult, and even 'wrong' in one way or another sometimes. I think it depends on our personalities and our weaknesses. God has to work with what we give Him, and I think sometimes we give Him a personality that is difficult to guide or weaknesses that we are unwilling to give up, and so He comes at us from a different angle than He would otherwise have to do, or do with someone a little more pliable maybe? As with most things, I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all approach that God uses on His children in regards to this issue. 2
cinepro Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) Here's a telling of the story from the son's perspective: http://www.lds.org/new-era/2005/07/wrong-roads-and-revelation A very interesting insight , which also is additionally fascinating to consider when applied to the institutional Church. Maybe one can apply it as a suggested reference to policies and positions held by the Church in the past that are perhaps viewed by some as the brethren as having been allowed so that the leadership and membership could learn for sure by their experience that it was definitely the WRONG Path, leading to a dead-end, and, to use President Uchtdorf's words, "not in harmony with our values, principles or doctrine". I find the idea of an apostle teaching that sometimes we are given the "wrong" answer to prayer to be a little disturbing. Extrapolate and explain it any way you like, the "spirit" is supposed to convey truth, not error. If people are receiving wrong information from the spirit, even for a greater purpose, that really changes a lot of things. Person A (including Church leaders): You can believe me, because the Spirit has confirmed it. Person B: No, it's possible that you were mislead for a greater purpose. I understand the greater purpose, and see the error, so you're still wrong. As far as I can tell, the best explanation for someone receiving a "wrong" answer to a prayer was that they misunderstood the answer, or didn't actually get one. In other words, it was their fault. We would have expected Elder Holland to tell his son that they were both mistaken, and sometimes people think they're getting revelation but really aren't. Saying they received an authentic spiritual confirmation for the wrong path is totally different. Edited November 7, 2013 by cinepro 2
cinepro Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 (edited) On a related note, Royal Skousen has recently published on some lost verses from Moroni 10 that have been revealed through textual analysis. Apparently these were lost in the printing process, but may be added back in for the next revision: Moroni 105. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things. 5a. But yea, even by that power may the truth of all things not be known, for inasmuch as we hearken unto the voice of the Lord, even so, our path may not be shown. 5b. For the the path is narrow, and even as the servant hearkens unto mine voice, even by the power of the Holy Ghost, may the wide path be shown unto him. 5c. For unto this path is it made knownst unto him the error of his ways. And only by the error may the truth be made known, unto a surety of the way. 5d. Wherefore, follow mine voice in faith, that sometimes the right path may be shown, but sometimes not, for mine greater purpose. 5e. Wherfore, by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of most things, and the rest will be made known unto you in mine own due time.5f. Wherefore, when ye shall receive these things, it is by the power of the Holy Ghost that ye may know that there is a pretty good chance it's true. Interesting stuff! Edited November 7, 2013 by cinepro 1
EllenMaksoud Posted November 7, 2013 Posted November 7, 2013 Wrong Roads http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNQC-_srxH8 Elder Holland recounts an experience with his son regarding an answer to prayer. But it's not what you think it is. Before I make a comment, I want to see what you think.With only some qualification, I am the mistress of "Wrong Roads". And mostly there was never an intention to take the wrong ones. Sometimes others lead us down the wrong road, and sometimes it is due to our own ignorance. I will, with some authority, say that I now know many wrong roads and use that knowledge to warn others from taking them. Sometimes those warnings seem futile, but mostly not. 1
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