Do You Think You Will Be Exalted One Day?

[jkwilliams]

Agreed.

 

But who does their "personal best" always? 

 

No one, hence the atonement.

[mfbukowski]

While I agree the physical ordinance is no guarantee that one has been sealed up unto eternal life, does it not point to the fact that one may know, while yet in mortality, that he or she will be exalted?

Just for the record, I agree 100% with your post, AND this point.  WE can personally know this by the Holy Spirit of Promise.

 

But if that was revealed to me, the last thing I would do is go on the internet and brag about it.

 

That is all I was ever saying.

Edited October 30, 2013 by mfbukowski

[jkwilliams]

Just for the record, I agree 100% with your post, AND this point.  WE can personally know this by the Holy Spirit of Promise.

 

But if that was revealed to me, the last thing I would do is go on the internet and brag about it.

 

 

I used to know a guy who posted here and elsewhere who used to brag about having had his calling and election made sure. Most of the time I thought he was joking, but once in a while I wasn't sure.

 

But you're right: If indeed we have been forgiven such that we are assured a place in the celestial kingdom, it should fill us with humility, not pride. In a paradoxical way, on the other hand, worrying that we haven't been forgiven could be seen as a form of pride in that we can't accept that God is merciful to us and has forgiven us. It would almost be like saying that the atonement applies to everyone else, but not to us. I can relate to having felt that way before.

[mfbukowski]

No one, hence the atonement.

You are just sitting out there waiting for a comment from me, aren't you?

 

I challenge your implication that it is doctrinal that everyone who receives the benefits of the atonement will be exalted.  It's these ambiguous one liners of you that drive me nuts.

 

Take a position, state it firmly in a logical manner and defend it if you have a point to make.

[jkwilliams]

You are just sitting out there waiting for a comment from me, aren't you?

Well, no, I've been commenting for the last hour or so since I finished my work and started waiting for my ride home. You just happened to show up.

 

I challenge your implication that it is doctrinal that everyone who receives the benefits of the atonement will be exalted.  It's these ambiguous one liners of you that drive me nuts.

To receive all the benefits of the atonement is to be perfect and sinless. And those who are perfect and sinless are exalted. That is doctrine, isn't it?

 

Take a position, state it firmly in a logical manner and defend it if you have a point to make.

If you believe the Bible Dictionary, the atonement gets you only so far: "However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, “It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23)." This is basically adapted from McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine."

I disagree, and disagreed even when I was still an active believer. If you ask me, and no one did, "all we can do" is essentially nothing. Our pitiful works cannot save or exalt us. I've long believed that for grace to operate in our lives, we must be willing to give our wills over to God and say "Not my will but thine be done." Of course, even after we do that, we are not going to be perfect and we aren't always expending our best efforts. Sometimes we don't try much at all. Without the atonement our best efforts, all the works in the world, will neither save or exalt us. If we think we are exalted by what we do, we are fooling ourselves and essentially denying the Atonement of Christ.

That would be my position. IIRC, Stephen Robinson agrees with me.

[thesometimesaint]

Well, no, I've been commenting for the last hour or so since I finished my work and started waiting for my ride home. You just happened to show up.

 

To receive all the benefits of the atonement is to be perfect and sinless. And those who are perfect and sinless are exalted. That is doctrine, isn't it?

 

If you believe the Bible Dictionary, the atonement gets you only so far: "However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, “It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23)." This is basically adapted from McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine."

I disagree, and disagreed even when I was still an active believer. If you ask me, and no one did, "all we can do" is essentially nothing. Our pitiful works cannot save or exalt us. I've long believed that for grace to operate in our lives, we must be willing to give our wills over to God and say "Not my will but thine be done." Of course, even after we do that, we are not going to be perfect and we aren't always expending our best efforts. Sometimes we don't try much at all. Without the atonement our best efforts, all the works in the world, will neither save or exalt us. If we think we are exalted by what we do, we are fooling ourselves and essentially denying the Atonement of Christ.

That would be my position. IIRC, Stephen Robinson agrees with me.

 

I don't believe that is supportable from the Scriptures. For faith without works is dead. We are not to hide our lamp under a bushel; every man(woman) is to be judged, and rewarded according to their works; The separation of the sheep and the goats; The Sermon on the Mount; The Sermon at the Temple.

 

The Lord wants and demands that we be more than mere bumps on a log. We are to get out there and change the world for the better.

 

Is it ever enough on our own to get us into Heaven. No, not even the lowest degree of glory therein. But we are to be working towards the goal of the Celestial Kingdom every day of our lives.

Edited October 30, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[VideoGameJunkie]

I don't believe that is supportable from the Scriptures. For faith without works is dead. We are not to hide our lamp under a bushel; every man(woman) is to be judged, and rewarded according to their works; The separation of the sheep and the goats; The Sermon on the Mount; The Sermon at the Temple.

 

The Lord wants and demands that we be more than mere bumps on a log. We are to get out there and change the world for the better.

 

Is it ever enough on our own to get us into Heaven. No, not even the lowest degree of glory therein. But we are to be working towards the goal of the Celestial Kingdom every day of our lives.

I have a goal of getting closer to the Celestial Kingdom everyday, but I wish the general authorities would talk more about the 3 different levels of the Celestial Kingdom, like who goes where.

[danielwoods]

Or this one...Luke 14:11 "For everyone that exalts himself will be humbled, and everyone who humbles himself will be exalted".

I guess there is a scripture about exaltation.

So Daniel, we will be "like" angels? What does that mean?

In the context of each of those passages, we will be like angels in two specific ways. One we won't die anymore

(we will be in a resurrected state), and two we won't be married.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Baptism clears away all those sins before we were baptisd, and taking the Sacrament takes away all those sins after, remembered or not. The Lord wants us to be happy. Constantly dredging up all our own past sins, and beating ourselves with them doesn't make us, or IMNTBHO God happy.

Does taking the sacrament really take away the sins?

[pogi]

You know, that is the question that haunts me. I don't know. I know I have the ability, the opportunity, but I don't know if I will measure up. And if I don't, I will lose two good women whom I am sure will be.

 

Glenn

 

I thought we did away with polygamy.  

[jkwilliams]

I don't believe that is supportable from the Scriptures. For faith without works is dead. We are not to hide our lamp under a bushel; every man(woman) is to be judged, and rewarded according to their works; The separation of the sheep and the goats; The Sermon on the Mount; The Sermon at the Temple.

 

The Lord wants and demands that we be more than mere bumps on a log. We are to get out there and change the world for the better.

 

Is it ever enough on our own to get us into Heaven. No, not even the lowest degree of glory therein. But we are to be working towards the goal of the Celestial Kingdom every day of our lives.

I said nothing about being bumps on a log. I'm just saying that, in the eternal scheme of things, it is not our works that save us but the Atonement. To believe that we work our way to heaven is not only to deny the atonement but to deny the reality: we all fall short.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I said nothing about being bumps on a log. I'm just saying that, in the eternal scheme of things, it is not our works that save us but the Atonement. To believe that we work our way to heaven is not only to deny the atonement but to deny the reality: we all fall short.

So what gets us exalted? Just the atonement? Don't our works count for a lot and what ordinances we've had done in the temple?

[Calm]

Does taking the sacrament really take away the sins?

Does baptism?

 

God has given us the promise that it will if we are committed to the covenant.  Perhaps we are not always as fully committed as we should be, but that is why the Lord has allowed for it to be a process of becoming and not an instant of being saved or not, exalted or not.

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2000/10/the-challenge-to-become?lang=eng

 

 

 

We are challenged to move through a process of conversion toward that status and condition called eternal life. This is achieved not just by doing what is right, but by doing it for the right reason—for the pure love of Christ. The Apostle Paul illustrated this in his famous teaching about the importance of charity (see 1 Cor. 13). The reason charity never fails and the reason charity is greater than even the most significant acts of goodness he cited is that charity, “the pure love of Christ” (Moro. 7:47), is not an act but a condition or state of being. Charity is attained through a succession of acts that result in a conversion. Charity is something one becomes. Thus, as Moroni declared, “except men shall have charity they cannot inherit” the place prepared for them in the mansions of the Father (Ether 12:34; emphasis added).

All of this helps us understand an important meaning of the parable of the laborers in the vineyard, which the Savior gave to explain what the kingdom of heaven is like. As you remember, the owner of the vineyard hired laborers at different times of the day. Some he sent into the vineyard early in the morning, others about the third hour, and others in the sixth and ninth hours. Finally, in the eleventh hour he sent others into the vineyard, promising that he would also pay them “whatsoever is right” (Matt. 20:7).

At the end of the day the owner of the vineyard gave the same wage to every worker, even to those who had come in the eleventh hour. When those who had worked the entire day saw this, “they murmured against the goodman of the house” (Matt. 20:11). The owner did not yield but merely pointed out that he had done no one any wrong, since he had paid each man the agreed amount.

Like other parables, this one can teach several different and valuable principles. For present purposes its lesson is that the Master’s reward in the Final Judgment will not be based on how long we have labored in the vineyard. We do not obtain our heavenly reward by punching a time clock. What is essential is that our labors in the workplace of the Lord have caused us to become something. For some of us, this requires a longer time than for others. What is important in the end is what we have become by our labors. Many who come in the eleventh hour have been refined and prepared by the Lord in ways other than formal employment in the vineyard. These workers are like the prepared dry mix to which it is only necessary to “add water”—the perfecting ordinance of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. With that addition—even in the eleventh hour—these workers are in the same state of development and qualified to receive the same reward as those who have labored long in the vineyard.

This parable teaches us that we should never give up hope and loving associations with family members and friends whose fine qualities (see Moro. 7:5–14) evidence their progress toward what a loving Father would have them become. Similarly, the power of the Atonement and the principle of repentance show that we should never give up on loved ones who now seem to be making many wrong choices.

Instead of being judgmental about others, we should be concerned about ourselves. We must not give up hope. We must not stop striving. We are children of God, and it is possible for us to become what our Heavenly Father would have us become.

How can we measure our progress? The scriptures suggest various ways. I will mention only two.

After King Benjamin’s great sermon, many of his hearers cried out that the Spirit of the Lord “has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually” (Mosiah 5:2). If we are losing our desire to do evil, we are progressing toward our heavenly goal.

The Apostle Paul said that persons who have received the Spirit of God “have the mind of Christ” (1 Cor. 2:16). I understand this to mean that persons who are proceeding toward the needed conversion are beginning to see things as our Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, see them. They are hearing His voice instead of the voice of the world, and they are doing things in His way instead of by the ways of the world.

 

 

 

[jkwilliams]

When I was on my mission, a woman was baptized in a font that was so cold the elders had to break the ice on the surface. She became quite ill and died about 5 days later. From what one of the elders, who was later my companion, said, she was one of those people who accepted the gospel with great faith and enthusiasm. She wept with joy when she was confirmed and was as happy as anyone had ever seen her.

Yet she never attended church again. She never held a calling, never paid tithing, never took the sacrament, never went to the temple, never was a visiting teacher, never did anything in the church. Will someone like her be exalted, or are more works required, more effort, more perfecting of the self?

This is what I mean when I say our works don't exalt us. This faithful woman literally did not have time to do any works or make and keep any additional covenants, yet according to the doctrine, she has as much right to the celestial kingdom as anyone else.

[mfbukowski]

Well, no, I've been commenting for the last hour or so since I finished my work and started waiting for my ride home. You just happened to show up.

 

To receive all the benefits of the atonement is to be perfect and sinless. And those who are perfect and sinless are exalted. That is doctrine, isn't it?

 

If you believe the Bible Dictionary, the atonement gets you only so far: "However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation, “It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do” (2 Ne. 25:23)." This is basically adapted from McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine."

I disagree, and disagreed even when I was still an active believer. If you ask me, and no one did, "all we can do" is essentially nothing. Our pitiful works cannot save or exalt us. I've long believed that for grace to operate in our lives, we must be willing to give our wills over to God and say "Not my will but thine be done." Of course, even after we do that, we are not going to be perfect and we aren't always expending our best efforts. Sometimes we don't try much at all. Without the atonement our best efforts, all the works in the world, will neither save or exalt us. If we think we are exalted by what we do, we are fooling ourselves and essentially denying the Atonement of Christ.

That would be my position. IIRC, Stephen Robinson agrees with me.

To receive all the benefits of the atonement is to be perfect and sinless. And those who are perfect and sinless are exalted. That is doctrine, isn't it?

 

Cleanliness is next to Godliness and Godliness is next to impossible.

Therefore cleanliness is next to impossible.  

 

I would be surprised if the extent of Stephen Robinson's position is equivalent to what you have stated, which amounts to no more than "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven".

 

Essentially you are saying that all will be exalted, since all receive the benefits of the atonement.  No, I don't think that's doctrine at all.

[mfbukowski]

This is what I mean when I say our works don't exalt us.

Who said that they did? Edited October 31, 2013 by mfbukowski

[jkwilliams]

Cleanliness is next to Godliness and Godliness is next to impossible.

Therefore cleanliness is next to impossible.  

 

I would be surprised if the extent of Stephen Robinson's position is equivalent to what you have stated, which amounts to no more than "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven".

 

Essentially you are saying that all will be exalted, since all receive the benefits of the atonement.  No, I don't think that's doctrine at all.

I explained what I meant in the post about the woman who died a few days after baptism. I'd love to hear your comments.

[JLHPROF]

Exalted? I've never read anything about being exalted in the Bible or BOM. Can someone help me with a scripture? I plainly have not delved into them like some of you have. I've only read that Christ said we would be angels, which sounds good to me, I will stay plenty busy.

 

Is that sarcasm?  Of course you have heard about it.  It may not use the word exalt, but any time scripture talks about a saint sitting on a throne, ruling and reigning, or becoming a God, it refers to exaltation.

 

Any time it refers to angels, servants, or mere entrance into God's Kingdom it is referring to salvation.  The salvation/exaltation divide is easily recognizable in scripture, although we often disagree on the dividing line.  There will be a great many more who receive salvation in the Kingdom of God than there will be those who gave their all and are blessed to rule and reign.

 

Some scriptures on exaltation

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/exaltation  (although some of them apply more to salvation than exaltation.)

Revelation 3:21, Revelation 5:10, 2 Timothy 2:12 and many more.

And the granddaddy of them all in Mormonism:  D&C 132:20

[mfbukowski]

I explained what I meant in the post about the woman who died a few days after baptism. I'd love to hear your comments.

What's there to comment on? Obviously she was doing her best when she died. I am not in a position to judge, but as far as we can tell, she would be on the fast track to exaltation.

[JLHPROF]

It is a false teaching that being exalted requires humility in the way that is is said above.   The atonement always and forever makes one perfect in Christ immediately and continually WHEN we are doing our personal best and quickly repenting of the mess ups.   This means that today, if you are doing your personal best to keep the commandments, then you ARE PERFECT IN CHRIST today.   (You may well conquer more difficulties in the rest of your life, get more control over your tongue or your hands and feet and desire to do this or that that impedes your usefulness to God or that interferes with your own objective perfection.   But since the atonement covers everything (whether big  or small) in the gap between our personal 100% perfection, and objective perfection, it matters not how big the gap is for any individual.   It only matters whether we have qualified for the atonement by being baptized and by doing our personal best and quickly repenting (part of personal best).

 

I hate all this notion that we have to be objectively perfect and how that is a long slog and we'll never get there, and only a few will ever be able to make it.   It has always been false doctrine and I thought even us really old time members who heard that over the pulpit before we learned better some 20 or so years ago (for me it was after Stephen Robinson's Believing Christ was published), were getting the atonement after all.  

 

I agree with this teaching completely, but I do wonder if it applies more to salvation than exaltation.  That mysterious line between being accepting Christ and His salvation and atonement, and the more specific line of those who were wiling to give their all to Christ and His Kingdom and so get to rule and reign.

[jkwilliams]

What's there to comment on? Obviously she was doing her best when she died. I am not in a position to judge, but as far as we can tell, she would be on the fast track to exaltation.

I think we agree, mfb. Not that you'd know it.

I think we usually do agree on things but we're too pig-headed to admit it--or listen to each other.

[Kenngo1969]

It doesn't sound as if that applies to the poster or any of us here. Not even me.

I know you're probably shocked on some level by that, John, but that's right: not even you!

[jkwilliams]

I know you're probably shocked on some level by that, John, but that's right: not even you!

I'm telestial material, so I'm not worried about perdition ... yet.

[Kenngo1969]

... But you're right: If indeed we have been forgiven such that we are assured a place in the celestial kingdom, it should fill us with humility, not pride. In a paradoxical way, on the other hand, worrying that we haven't been forgiven could be seen as a form of pride in that we can't accept that God is merciful to us and has forgiven us. It would almost be like saying that the atonement applies to everyone else, but not to us. I can relate to having felt that way before. [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.]

I can, too, John.

[Kenngo1969]

I'm telestial material, so I'm not worried about perdition ... yet.

Perhaps you're underestimating the power of Christ and His Atonement.  I feel quite safe in saying that, in the end, wherever you end up, you won't feel you've been shortchanged.