ERayR Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 Yep to the full extent of my comfort zone. I don't see God pushing me beyond that.
Glenn101 Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 You know, that is the question that haunts me. I don't know. I know I have the ability, the opportunity, but I don't know if I will measure up. And if I don't, I will lose two good women whom I am sure will be. Glenn
Tacenda Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 Eh? That's a new one on me. I thought the only one was denying the Holy Ghost, or did I miss the memo.Me too!
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 30, 2013 Author Posted October 30, 2013 How does one exactly deny the Holy Ghost? I want to make sure I haven't done that.
Hamba Tuhan Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) How does one exactly deny the Holy Ghost? I want to make sure I haven't done that. From Joseph Smith: All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost; for Jesus will save all except the sons of perdition. What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say that the sun does not shine while he sees it; he has got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him, and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it ... From Joseph F. Smith: No man can possibly commit the unpardonable sin in ignorance. A man must be brought to a knowledge of Christ; he must receive a testimony of Christ in his heart, and possess light and power, knowledge and understanding, before he is capable of committing that sin. But when a man turns away from the truth, violates the knowledge that he has received, tramples it under his feet, puts Christ again to open shame, denies His atonement, denies the power of the resurrection, denies the miracles that He has wrought for the salvation of the human family, and says in his heart, “It is not true”, and abides in that denial of the truth, after having received the testimony of the Spirit, he commits the unpardonable sin. From Spencer W. Kimball: In the realms of perdition or the kingdom of darkness, where there is no light, Satan and the unembodied spirits of the pre-existence shall dwell together with those of mortality who retrogress to the level of perdition. These have lost the power of regeneration. They have sunk so low as to have lost the inclinations and ability to repent, consequently the gospel plan is useless to them as an agent of growth and development. Edited October 30, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan
Hamba Tuhan Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 Can you provide a reference for that? You might have just answered the question in my previous post. See the quote from Pres Kimball directly above.
canard78 Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=51969daac5d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD http://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/unpardonable-sin http://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/forgive Sorry that doesn't could as answering the question. Anyone can link to a list of Gospel Topics. You said: "Denying the Holy Ghost is an unwillingness to repent." Given denying the Holy Ghost is the unpardonable sin I'd always considered it to be a completed action. (The comparison Joseph once gave was: Is the sun shining at noon day? No it isn't). I like your proposal that actually Denying the Holy Ghost is not a one-off action but an attitude, that people who refuse to repent are denying the Holy Ghost. Are you saying that unrepentant will become sons of perdition? It's an interesting argument and can see it has merit. I'd just like some references as I'd like to study it further. So, yes, this is an official C(all) F(or) R(eferences) - please. Not because I'm trying to shut you down, but because I'd like you to expand further on your statement and I'd like to see if there are any specific references by leaders or in the scriptures that state that an unwillingness to repent is the way (the only way?) to deny the Holy Ghost and commit the unpardonable sin.
canard78 Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 From Joseph Smith:...After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him... From Joseph F. Smith:...denies His atonement... From Spencer W. Kimball:...They have sunk so low as to have lost the inclinations and ability to repent... Very interesting. I had always assumed that Joseph Smith was saying that "there is no repentance for him" because the denier was unable to, not because he was unwilling to. Joseph F. Smith talks of someone who denies the atonement, that is to not accept the power of repentance. President Kimball's is the most clear, saying they have lost the inclination/ability to repent. Almost suggesting that even as sons of perdition they could still repent and return to God but have sunk so low that they are unwilling to repent. In other words, is perdition (from the Latin lost or destroyed) the person who simply says: "No, I will never change, I will not repent." Much as I can't imagine being in that state of mind, it makes sense that it's the only state of mind that could never be recovered from. JFS says: A man must be brought to a knowledge of Christ; he must receive a testimony of Christ in his heart, and possess light and power, knowledge and understanding, before he is capable of committing that sin. Again, I'd often presumed that this was a one-off event in mortality. But it could just as well refer to a state in the next life. Every knee shall bow... every tongue confess. Are the few that refuse to - even in that face-to-face knowledge those who ultimately sin against the Holy Ghost. Interesting...
Storm Rider Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 Do I think I will be exalted one day? I am not sure of your motives for the question, but it is an excellent one. Sorry I did not read everything that has been written, but I took this as a personal question. The answer lies within my faith in the Atonement of Christ; how could anything else merit it? Yes, I believe that I may be exalted one day if I am willing to run the good race; if I remember him always; if I follow after the Father willingly and without shame or in secret; strive to keep his commandments and maintain an active repentant spirit for my daily actions. 1
canard78 Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 See the quote from Pres Kimball directly above. Thanks
Hamba Tuhan Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) Almost suggesting that even as sons of perdition they could still repent and return to God but have sunk so low that they are unwilling to repent. God simply doesn't cast off His children. 'For God sent not His son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved'. But He can't save those who refuse the Gift of His son. Whether unto life or death, the choice is always ours, the deciding factor our willfulness. In other words, is perdition (from the Latin lost or destroyed) the person who simply says: "No, I will never change, I will not repent." Much as I can't imagine being in that state of mind, it makes sense that it's the only state of mind that could never be recovered from. Exactly. Every knee shall bow... every tongue confess. Are the few that refuse to - even in that face-to-face knowledge those who ultimately sin against the Holy Ghost. Yes, they are included. They've already tasted of hell and know what their choice is leading to and persist in their refusal to repent and be saved. Mosiah 16:5: 'But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature, and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him. Therefore he is as though there was no redemption made, being an enemy to God; and also is the devil an enemy to God'. That's a choice that can also be made here. Edited October 30, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan
canard78 Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 God simply doesn't cast off His children. 'For God sent not His son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved'. But He can't save those who refuse the Gift of His son. Whether unto life or death, the choice is always ours, the deciding factor our willfulness. Exactly. Yes, they are included. They've already tasted of hell and know what their choice is leading to and persist in their refusal to repent and be saved. Mosiah 16:5: 'But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature, and goes on in the ways of sin and rebellion against God, remaineth in his fallen state and the devil hath all power over him. Therefore he is as though there was no redemption made, being an enemy to God; and also is the devil an enemy to God'. That's a choice that can also be made here. Thanks - I find this a very exciting new way of considering this principle and teaching. It makes far more sense to me framed in this way compared to the slightly ambiguous 'scare-monger' perspective I'd initially had of not knowing how much needed to be known and how the denial was done.
janderich Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 People are talking about having "confidence", in being exalted- which is essentially faith. Of course that is not what I was talking about. I was talking about the hubris of some who think once they have been sealed, they are "in", and those who are not are "out". If you think that, you are clearly not "in". Notice in my original comment I mentioned work for the dead- that was why I mentioned it. Being sealed in this life is a pre-requisite, but far from a guarantee, and of course people who have not been sealed before death are still just as much in the running as anyone else. There is no point in arguing it further.While I agree the physical ordinance is no guarantee that one has been sealed up unto eternal life, does it not point to the fact that one may know, while yet in mortality, that he or she will be exalted? And if one may know, is it not their privilege to obtain this knowledge? I say it is. This is the testimony of scripture... Henceforth, there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day....And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom...(2 Tim 4:8,18) And I soon go to the place of my rest, which is with my Redeemer; for I know that in him I shall rest. ...then shall I see his face with pleasure, and he will say unto me; Come unto me, ye blessed, there is a place prepared for you in the mansions of my Father. (Enos 1:27) Thou art my servant; and I covenant with thee that thou shalt have eternal life...(Mosiah 26:20) And it came to pass that the Lord said unto me: ....And because thou hast seen thy weakness thou shalt be made strong, even unto the sitting down in the place which I have prepared in the mansions of my Father. (Ether 12:37) Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, ....This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life... (D&C 88:3,4) For I am the Lord thy God, and will be with thee even unto the end of the world, and through all eternity; for verily I seal upon you your exaltation, and prepare a throne for you in the kingdom of my Father, with Abraham your father. (D&C 132:49)
Tacenda Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 Exalted? I've never read anything about being exalted in the Bible or BOM. Can someone help me with a scripture? I plainly have not delved into them like some of you have. I've only read that Christ said we would be angels, which sounds good to me, I will stay plenty busy.
rpn Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 It is a false teaching that being exalted requires humility in the way that is is said above. The atonement always and forever makes one perfect in Christ immediately and continually WHEN we are doing our personal best and quickly repenting of the mess ups. This means that today, if you are doing your personal best to keep the commandments, then you ARE PERFECT IN CHRIST today. (You may well conquer more difficulties in the rest of your life, get more control over your tongue or your hands and feet and desire to do this or that that impedes your usefulness to God or that interferes with your own objective perfection. But since the atonement covers everything (whether big or small) in the gap between our personal 100% perfection, and objective perfection, it matters not how big the gap is for any individual. It only matters whether we have qualified for the atonement by being baptized and by doing our personal best and quickly repenting (part of personal best). I hate all this notion that we have to be objectively perfect and how that is a long slog and we'll never get there, and only a few will ever be able to make it. It has always been false doctrine and I thought even us really old time members who heard that over the pulpit before we learned better some 20 or so years ago (for me it was after Stephen Robinson's Believing Christ was published), were getting the atonement after all.
thesometimesaint Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 So if I died right now while being single, I'd still be in the running? Yes.
thesometimesaint Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 Sorry that doesn't could as answering the question. Anyone can link to a list of Gospel Topics. You said: "Denying the Holy Ghost is an unwillingness to repent." Given denying the Holy Ghost is the unpardonable sin I'd always considered it to be a completed action. (The comparison Joseph once gave was: Is the sun shining at noon day? No it isn't). I like your proposal that actually Denying the Holy Ghost is not a one-off action but an attitude, that people who refuse to repent are denying the Holy Ghost. Are you saying that unrepentant will become sons of perdition? It's an interesting argument and can see it has merit. I'd just like some references as I'd like to study it further. So, yes, this is an official C(all) F(or) R(eferences) - please. Not because I'm trying to shut you down, but because I'd like you to expand further on your statement and I'd like to see if there are any specific references by leaders or in the scriptures that state that an unwillingness to repent is the way (the only way?) to deny the Holy Ghost and commit the unpardonable sin. The sun is always shining. Whether we admit to seeing it is another matter. The natural assumption within JS quote is that we see it, and still deny it is. It is one of attitude. It is the attitude that no matter what, I will not ever repent(turn towards God). That there was no need for the Atonement. I am above God. ALL sin can be repented of, except sin against the Holy Ghost. http://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/holy-ghost-unpardonable-sin-against 1
thesometimesaint Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) Exalted? I've never read anything about being exalted in the Bible or BOM. Can someone help me with a scripture? I plainly have not delved into them like some of you have. I've only read that Christ said we would be angels, which sounds good to me, I will stay plenty busy. See https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/john/17?lang=eng Ps. See Theosishttp://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_the_nature_of_God/Deification_of_manhttp://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_theosis.shtml PPs. We are all angels. Angels just means servants. We will always be servants of God. Edited October 30, 2013 by thesometimesaint
danielwoods Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 I've only read that Christ said we would be angels, which sounds good to me, I will stay plenty busy. PPs. We are all angels. Angels just means servants. We will always be servants of God. Just a point of clarification Christ never said we would be angels (or that we are). Rather that we'd be like angels, after we die. If interested Luke 20:36 "and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels." Matt 22:30 "they will be like the angels in heaven."
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 30, 2013 Author Posted October 30, 2013 I try to repent daily, but I forget all of my sins that I need to repent for. I try to make sure in the Lord's eyes that I'm clean each day. But that's only after overcoming a sinful 8 years of my life after being endowed in the temple.
Tacenda Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 Or this one...Luke 14:11 "For everyone that exalts himself will be humbled, and everyone who humbles himself will be exalted". I guess there is a scripture about exaltation.So Daniel, we will be "like" angels? What does that mean?
VideoGameJunkie Posted October 30, 2013 Author Posted October 30, 2013 It is a false teaching that being exalted requires humility in the way that is is said above. The atonement always and forever makes one perfect in Christ immediately and continually WHEN we are doing our personal best and quickly repenting of the mess ups. This means that today, if you are doing your personal best to keep the commandments, then you ARE PERFECT IN CHRIST today. (You may well conquer more difficulties in the rest of your life, get more control over your tongue or your hands and feet and desire to do this or that that impedes your usefulness to God or that interferes with your own objective perfection. But since the atonement covers everything (whether big or small) in the gap between our personal 100% perfection, and objective perfection, it matters not how big the gap is for any individual. It only matters whether we have qualified for the atonement by being baptized and by doing our personal best and quickly repenting (part of personal best). I hate all this notion that we have to be objectively perfect and how that is a long slog and we'll never get there, and only a few will ever be able to make it. It has always been false doctrine and I thought even us really old time members who heard that over the pulpit before we learned better some 20 or so years ago (for me it was after Stephen Robinson's Believing Christ was published), were getting the atonement after all. I like this a lot. Thanks!
thesometimesaint Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 (edited) I try to repent daily, but I forget all of my sins that I need to repent for. I try to make sure in the Lord's eyes that I'm clean each day. But that's only after overcoming a sinful 8 years of my life after being endowed in the temple. Baptism clears away all those sins before we were baptisd, and taking the Sacrament takes away all those sins after, remembered or not. The Lord wants us to be happy. Constantly dredging up all our own past sins, and beating ourselves with them doesn't make us, or IMNTBHO God happy. Edited October 30, 2013 by thesometimesaint 1
thesometimesaint Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 Just a point of clarification Christ never said we would be angels (or that we are). Rather that we'd be like angels, after we die.If interested Luke 20:36 "and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels."Matt 22:30 "they will be like the angels in heaven."Christ calls us Gods. In LDS Theology we will always serve God the Father, even as we become like him. The Resurrection of Christ made it so that none will die in the eternities.
mfbukowski Posted October 30, 2013 Posted October 30, 2013 It is a false teaching that being exalted requires humility in the way that is is said above. The atonement always and forever makes one perfect in Christ immediately and continually WHEN we are doing our personal best and quickly repenting of the mess ups. This means that today, if you are doing your personal best to keep the commandments, then you ARE PERFECT IN CHRIST today. (You may well conquer more difficulties in the rest of your life, get more control over your tongue or your hands and feet and desire to do this or that that impedes your usefulness to God or that interferes with your own objective perfection. But since the atonement covers everything (whether big or small) in the gap between our personal 100% perfection, and objective perfection, it matters not how big the gap is for any individual. It only matters whether we have qualified for the atonement by being baptized and by doing our personal best and quickly repenting (part of personal best). I hate all this notion that we have to be objectively perfect and how that is a long slog and we'll never get there, and only a few will ever be able to make it. It has always been false doctrine and I thought even us really old time members who heard that over the pulpit before we learned better some 20 or so years ago (for me it was after Stephen Robinson's Believing Christ was published), were getting the atonement after all. Agreed. But who does their "personal best" always?
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