Sister Stephens And Brother Andersen's Talks/women And The Priesthood

[Calm]

These two talks were, imo, directed to addressing the controversy of whether women should be ordained.

 

Sister Stephens:

 

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/print/2013/10/do-we-know-what-we-have?lang=eng

 

Brother Andersen:

 

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/print/2013/10/power-in-the-priesthood?lang=eng

 

I would be interested in hearing others' opinions after they read them...especially with specific quotes attached to support their conclusions.

Edited October 9, 2013 by Nemesis

[danieldemol]

This quote is interesting;

"Elder M. Russell Ballard said: “When men and women go to the temple, they are both endowed with the same power, which by definition is priesthood power. … The endowment is literally a gift of power.”

If God gives women who go to the temple priest power, one wonders why men in the church disagree with ordaining women as priests. Do they disagree with God?

[DBMormon]

Elder Neil L Anderson seen to indicate that while Women do not have Priesthood, We don't exactly know why.  I appreciated that honest admission.  I think for a prophet or an apostle to sometimes say, hey we just don't know is refreshing.  

[Jude2]

This quote is interesting;

"Elder M. Russell Ballard said: “When men and women go to the temple, they are both endowed with the same power, which by definition is priesthood power. … The endowment is literally a gift of power.”

If God gives women who go to the temple priest power, one wonders why men in the church disagree with ordaining women as priests. Do they disagree with God?

 

When William Barclay translated Eph 5:11 he wrote; “…for this cause a man will leave father and mother, and will be inseparably joined to his wife, and they two will be come so completely one that they will no longer be two persons, but one..”

 

There is no need for two ordainings! 

[bluebell]

This quote is interesting;

"Elder M. Russell Ballard said: “When men and women go to the temple, they are both endowed with the same power, which by definition is priesthood power. … The endowment is literally a gift of power.”

If God gives women who go to the temple priest power, one wonders why men in the church disagree with ordaining women as priests. Do they disagree with God?

First, it's too simplistic to say that men in the church disagree with ordaining women.

The majority of women in the church are just as vocally opposed to OW and their goal, if not more so, than the men.

Second, when people in the church say they do not support OW, they generally say that because they feel OW is not trying to do God's will but instead trying to carry out their own agenda. And BKP's quote does not support carrying out your own agenda.

So, no, such people do not disagree with God.

[CV75]

This quote is interesting;

"Elder M. Russell Ballard said: “When men and women go to the temple, they are both endowed with the same power, which by definition is priesthood power. … The endowment is literally a gift of power.”

If God gives women who go to the temple priest power, one wonders why men in the church disagree with ordaining women as priests. Do they disagree with God?

It is priesthood power, not priest power, and we don't ordain women as "priesthoods" (what does that mean, anyway?!). There is no disagreement with God on either point.

Edited October 9, 2013 by CV75

[Jude2]

First, it's too simplistic to say that men in the church disagree with ordaining women.

The majority of women in the church are just as vocally opposed to OW and their goal, if not more so, than the men.

 

As a woman I have no desire to be put in the position of having someone confess their sins to me nor sit in judgment of a neighbor and friend. I have enough burdens of my own, I don’t want someone else’s to stew about at 3:00 am. 

 

Having the priesthood keys of authority maybe a blessing on some level but mostly it is a great burden. 

[CV75]

These two talks were, imo, directed to addressing the controversy of whether women should be ordained.

 

Sister Stephens:

 

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/print/2013/10/do-we-know-what-we-have?lang=eng

 

Brother Andersen:

 

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/print/2013/10/power-in-the-priesthood?lang=eng

 

I would be interested in hearing others' opinions after they read them...especially with specific quotes attached to support their conclusions.

I think talks like these corner critics into entering the realms of accusation about past intentions, speculation about past and future changes, and fortune-telling to detract from the truths that are so clearly laid out in front of us. They haven't much to say about the actual truth of the matter.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

 

Having the priesthood keys of authority maybe a blessing on some level but mostly it is a great burden. 

 

Yes it is. I think the most important part of the talk was were he said that men and women have different roles. And men having the preisthood in the capacity that they do is part of their role. It is not for women to have. I don't know why women don't hold the preisthood but what I do know is that it is a man's role to hold it and that is not going to change.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I think talks like these corner critics into entering the realms of accusation about past intentions, speculation about past and future changes, and fortune-telling to detract from the truths that are so clearly laid out in front of us. They haven't much to say about the actual truth of the matter.

You are correct. It would be like me thinking that one day God will make it ok to commit adaultry. Of course I am mainly thinking of those that think gay marriage will be performed in the temple.

Edited October 9, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[JLHPROF]

This quote is interesting;

"Elder M. Russell Ballard said: “When men and women go to the temple, they are both endowed with the same power, which by definition is priesthood power. … The endowment is literally a gift of power.”

If God gives women who go to the temple priest power, one wonders why men in the church disagree with ordaining women as priests. Do they disagree with God?

 

I am starting to feel that ordaining women in the church has been reduced to a political motivation, ie we want a say in the running of the church.

I 100% agree with Elder Ballard - women who have been endowed do already hold priesthood power, and have potential to be ordained Queens and Priestesses.  If they already hold priesthood power, why seek Ecclesiastical power. 

As I said before, God will no more make a man a Queen and Priestess than he will make a woman a Deacon or High Priest.  In my opinion it shows a lack of understanding of eternal law and an unreasonable desire for another persons priesthood office.

[danieldemol]

I am starting to feel that ordaining women in the church has been reduced to a political motivation, ie we want a say in the running of the church.

On this point I must disagree, I actually don't care about how the LDS church is run, having said that it strikes me as odd to say God gives them power as such but they may not be ordained as such.

You seem to have the observation of an oddity confused with a desire for power, I am neither LDS nor female, so noticing an oddity doesn't give me a dog in the fight so to speak.

I 100% agree with Elder Ballard - women who have been endowed do already hold priesthood power, and have potential to be ordained Queens and Priestesses. If they already hold priesthood power, why seek Ecclesiastical power.

I didn't use the word "ecclesiastical" anywhere.

So has the church ordained any as priestess? Because the potential you speak of remains dubious unless it is actualised.

[Brenda]

This quote is interesting;

"Elder M. Russell Ballard said: “When men and women go to the temple, they are both endowed with the same power, which by definition is priesthood power. … The endowment is literally a gift of power.”

If God gives women who go to the temple priest power, one wonders why men in the church disagree with ordaining women as priests. Do they disagree with God?

But Ordain Women want ordination as men have it.  They want more than in the temple.  They want more leadership and administrative roles and the ability to baptize, give blessings, etc.  And actually, according to polls, LDS men are much more open to female ordination than are LDS women.  Roughly 90% LDS women are against it.  I am included in that majority. 

[Deborah]

One theme goes through many of the OW supporters. That of how they have been oppressed in the church. I have said to them that that is a rather strong word and do they know what it means. One woman put up this definition. Sorry, ladies, as I said oppression is an exaggeration that doesn't fit in the church even if they feel they have been treated badly by someone.

 

prolonged cruel or unjust treatment or control

synonyms: persecution, abuse, maltreatment, ill-treatment, tyranny, despotism, repression, suppression, subjection

[Tacenda]

There is a great podcast on Mormonstories that will give great insight before we judge them too much. It's a part one, of more to come. Fiona Givens and Maxine Hanks were mentioned to be joining the conversation in podcast #2. Two things stood out, one, they only wanted to try to get into a men's PH session to open doors to the possibility of women holding the PH, or using and participating in ordinances, they're fine with separate meetings for men and women. Maybe calling the men's session a society also. Two, it's untrue that these women are on their way out of the church, many, if not most are true believers.

Side note, when a son of one of the women went to the RS session, he got in just fine. And also, to many, the suggestion that we would get the Priesthood has been so out of the realm of possibility that maybe a lightbulb needs to turn on to open the mind up to it. Of course I'm still of the opinion it would be a no for me and should be a choice, male and female.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Tacenda

[danieldemol]

...And actually, according to polls, LDS men are much more open to female ordination than are LDS women. Roughly 90% LDS women are against it.

For my knowledge, are you able to link to or otherwise cite this poll, and if possible give known details of how and where it was taken?

[Lachoneus]

This quote is interesting;

"Elder M. Russell Ballard said: “When men and women go to the temple, they are both endowed with the same power, which by definition is priesthood power. … The endowment is literally a gift of power.”

If God gives women who go to the temple priest power, one wonders why men in the church disagree with ordaining women as priests. Do they disagree with God?

 

Do you think that what Elder Ballard was teaching in this talk is that women who attend the temple are given the priesthood? If so, why does Elder Ballard later in this same talk quote John A. Widstoe that "Woman does not hold the Priesthood, but she is a partaker of the blessings of the Priesthood. [Priesthood and Church Government (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1939), 83]." ? http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=2133 That seems rather clear to me that women do not hold the priesthood, but they are blessed by the priesthood.

[danieldemol]

Do you think that what Elder Ballard was teaching in this talk is that women who attend the temple are given the priesthood?

No, he appears to say they are given the powers, but not the title.

[Lachoneus]

No, he appears to say they are given the powers, but not the title.

 

Your answer makes no sense. What difference does a "title" make if they are the same "powers"? What "powers" are you talking about? How does one have the "powers" of the priesthood, but not the priesthood?

[David T]

We had Stake Conference this weekend, presided over by Elder Piper of the 70, who indicated this is a major topic in Salt Lake right now. He read the oath and covenant, and noted that it referred to women as well as men, and noted it was significant it said 'those who obtain', not 'ordained to' these Priesthoods, and referred to the Temple as where this might occur. Organizational changes and rhetorical changes are being discussed, especially

with more efforts to teach YW about their access to Priesthood Power, and unite the men and women's organizations, and halt the 'the women go here, the Priesthood go there' rhetoric and shorthand we use. No specifics were given, and ordination appears to be off thebtable, but the directions indicated possible without that step being required were exciting and inspiring.

The women are being heard, and revelation and policy adjustments are being sought and explored on the matter. And the General Women's organizations are being consulted and counseled with on these matters.

Edited October 14, 2013 by David T

[danieldemol]

Your answer makes no sense. What difference does a "title" make if they are the same "powers"? What "powers" are you talking about? How does one have the "powers" of the priesthood, but not the priesthood?

Fascinating questions, worthy of reflection by all

[Stone holm]

The women are ordained

Priestesses the talks seem overly vague and somewhat convoluted like they were dancing around an issue which is in flux, the Church is groping for an answer, I believe it understands the issue, eventually The Lord will give them an answer and way out of the cultural minefield the traditions of men have led them into.

[Duncan]

One thing too and hugh Nibley said it in a talk he gave or class or something, we don't even know who has the Priesthood,"Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man." so, in theory you could have 100 holders of the priesthood but like 27 are righteous and should exercise the Priesthood

 

"While the power of the priesthood is unlimited, our individual power in the priesthood is limited by our degree of righteousness or purity."

 

Elder John H. Groberg, 2001 GC

Edited October 15, 2013 by Duncan

[Kenngo1969]

First, it's too simplistic to say that men in the church disagree with ordaining women. ...

 

Indeed.  If God wills it, then I'm all for it! My problem with Ordain Women is that the group is attempting to dictate to God what He should do.

[Stone holm]

Indeed.  If God wills it, then I'm all for it! My problem with Ordain Women is that the group is attempting to dictate to God what He should do.

I doubt they see it that way, I suspect they see it as getting the Church to look at the question differently and to align its policies more in accord with a God who treats men and women as equally beloved and intelligent. I doubt they see God and the Brethren as being one and the same. Just my guess as I am not a mind reader. Most Mormons expect the Church to reflect God's Enlightened status, when they perceive something less they ascribe the flaw to the Church leadership not God.