Sister Stephens And Brother Andersen's Talks/women And The Priesthood

[Kenngo1969]

I doubt they see it that way, I suspect they see it as getting the Church to look at the question differently and to align its policies more in accord with a God who treats men and women as equally beloved and intelligent. I doubt they see God and the Brethren as being one and the same. Just my guess as I am not a mind reader. Most Mormons expect the Church to reflect God's Enlightened status, when they perceive something less they ascribe the flaw to the Church leadership not God.

We have differing confidence levels, then, in the extent to which the Brethren are able to perceive God's will and to act accordingly.  I believe God is perfectly able to make His Will known to the leaders of His Church without OW having to act as an intermediary, and I believe the Brethren are perfectly willing and able, in turn, to discern God's Will and to act upon it, likewise without OW having to act as an intermediary.  (Whoever thinks me naïve for so believing, that's fine; to each, his or her own. )

[Stone holm]

We have differing confidence levels, then, in the extent to which the Brethren are able to perceive God's will and to act accordingly.  I believe God is perfectly able to make His Will known to the leaders of His Church without OW having to act as an intermediary, and I believe the Brethren are perfectly willing and able, in turn, to discern God's Will and to act upon it, likewise without OW having to act as an intermediary.  (Whoever thinks me naïve for so believing, that's fine; to each, his or her own. )

 

Fair enough, I don't think it necessarily reflects on one's confidence in the Brethren to try and get a message to them that basically says -- would you please pray about this some more.  Given the fact that there may have been a lapse in praying about a Priesthood extension once before between Pres. McKay's tenure and Pres. Kimball's tenure -- whatcha think, we shouldn't try to get messages to the Prophet?

[Kenngo1969]

What might've happened in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints had the Priesthood ban been lifted before 1978?  I don't know.  Perhaps nothing dire.  Perhaps, according to one perspective, a blot on the Church's history and reputation would have been smaller, and gee, how could that possibly be a bad thing?   I'm at a disadvantage because I'm arguing from the perspective that the Lord has His own timing and methods for accomplishing what He wants to accomplish, even if that timing isn't "historically sound" and even if those methods aren't "sociologically sound."  I'd like to be able to explain that timing and those methods to the satisfaction of those who would question them, but, gosh, darn it, my perspective isn't infinite enough!

 

Could He "remove" a prophet who He realizes, for whatever reason, is, e.g., too "stubborn" or not "in tune enough" to accomplish His purposes?  Could he orchestrate the departure from this mortal life of the leaders of His Church such that any such potential "stumbling blocks" would be removed and that the right leader would be raised up and assume the Prophetic and Presidential mantles at the right time?  I don't see why not.  Death may seem random to us, but I don't see any reason to not trust Him when He told us that "all flesh is in [His] hand."  As I've said before on this topic, while much revelation (even most of it) might come in response to a specific question from one of His children, to say that it all does is to posit a god who, while allegedly omnipotent and allegedly omniscient, is overlooking His creation, tapping his foot, and impatiently checking His watch until we're "ready" for this revelation or that one, or until we finally pray about a given topic.

 

And in any event, as I've also said previously on this topic, comparing the prospect of ordaining women to the lifting of the prohibition on ordaining men of African descent is inapposite.  In the case of the latter, there was always a contingent among the Brethren who felt that the restriction would be lifted at some future time, while in the case of the former, not only has there never been such a contingent among Church leadership, but Church leaders repeatedly have affirmed that the opposite is the case (most recently at the just-concluded General Conference ... several times and independently, since topics aren't assigned).  Maybe the reasons for that are "sociologically unsatisfying" (and unsatisfying to the mortal mind in myriad other ways), but I trust that the Lord knows what He's doing.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Kenngo1969

[Calm]

Fair enough, I don't think it necessarily reflects on one's confidence in the Brethren to try and get a message to them that basically says -- would you please pray about this some more.  Given the fact that there may have been a lapse in praying about a Priesthood extension once before between Pres. McKay's tenure and Pres. Kimball's tenure -- whatcha think, we shouldn't try to get messages to the Prophet?

There is a difference between saying "please pray to find a solution to the problem of _______" and "please pray so you too can know the solution that I know what God wants us to do and thus implement what God and I agree must happen".

[juliann]

Fair enough, I don't think it necessarily reflects on one's confidence in the Brethren to try and get a message to them that basically says -- would you please pray about this some more.  Given the fact that there may have been a lapse in praying about a Priesthood extension once before between Pres. McKay's tenure and Pres. Kimball's tenure -- whatcha think, we shouldn't try to get messages to the Prophet?

I agree with Cal on this one.  In line with the pray about it so you can come to the same conclusion we already reached, I see a ratcheting up of the "holier than thou" Mormonspeak from radical Mofems on blogs.   It has a disconcerting Evangelical preaching sound to it (as in liberal use of atonement and phrases like "blood of Christ") and in this instance,  http://rationalfaiths.com/sacred-circles/ , even an uncomfortable Jane Austin reading Fascinating Womanhood vibe.   I am wondering if upping the rhetoric is the only weapon they feel they have now.  But as someone who is very sympathetic to them, I find the overwrought prose that I am seeing used to frame issues rather repellent. 

Edited October 16, 2013 by juliann

[Stone holm]

There is a difference between saying "please pray to find a solution to the problem of _______" and "please pray so you too can know the solution that I know what God wants us to do and thus implement what God and I agree must happen".

 

Interesting, what if you have prayed about it and have come to that conclusion (not that I have), but hypothetically?  As a 70 (the local type not the GA type) I used to occasionally watch the pray about thing sort of blow up in the missionaries face when the person would come back and say, "Yep, spent the evening on my knees and the answer was no."  To which the eternally optimistic missionary would basically say, pray again you will get the right answer eventually.  So does that approach not apply to the Brethren?

[Calm]

I would never dictate the answer to a prayer for someone else.

[Stone holm]

I would never dictate the answer to a prayer for someone else.

Would you say that once a Prophet prays and gets an answer the question is thereafter eternally closed?

[Glenn101]

Would you say that once a Prophet prays and gets an answer the question is thereafter eternally closed?

 

 

I would say only if the Lord says that it is eternally closed. When the answer is not now or not yet, then there is chances for a change.

 

Glenn

[Jazzdreamer]

I am starting to feel that ordaining women in the church has been reduced to a political motivation, ie we want a say in the running of the church.

I 100% agree with Elder Ballard - women who have been endowed do already hold priesthood power, and have potential to be ordained Queens and Priestesses. If they already hold priesthood power, why seek Ecclesiastical power.

As I said before, God will no more make a man a Queen and Priestess than he will make a woman a Deacon or High Priest. In my opinion it shows a lack of understanding of eternal law and an unreasonable desire for another persons priesthood office.

Phebe was a deaconess...

[Jazzdreamer]

Indeed. If God wills it, then I'm all for it! My problem with Ordain Women is that the group is attempting to dictate to God what He should do.

I'm half in and half out of this group.

They want to be ordained I think so that people with less than perfect circumstances can access the priesthood.

I'm 18, new convert, not married and nobody in my family is lds. I haven't been to the temple yet I'm still waiting. Honestly, it just sucks.

I want to have it in my home and not rush into marriage to get it.

Having said that, I mean to be in the celestial kingdom, a woman needs to rely on a man just as much as he needs to rely on her...so....that's also something to take about.

I was much more into the group in the beginning but I mean, going to church, blogging, being with mormon friends, I'm realizing women are not "submissive" in any way shape or form...and some of what the OW has to say is great, but some is just too much.

I believe someone has to step up for change to happen but I also know and believe that Heavenly Father will make that change when he feels it's right.

[Deborah]

They want to be ordained I think so that people with less than perfect circumstances can access the priesthood.

 

I've been single for many years. When one of the kids needed a blessing I was able to call on the Priesthood, either my home teachers or the Bishopric or even a friend. You always have access to the Priesthood. But even when you don't have the Priesthood around you can call on the powers of the Priesthood, which I've done many times.

 

OW still fails to understand the difference between "having" the Priesthood and calling on its powers. One of their arguments is that they want their daughters to feel important by being able to pass the Sacrament. If their daughters don't feel important whose fault is that? Why is passing the Sacrament such a rite of passage that one needs to be able to do it to feel valuable. Our young women serve in many capacities. Passing the Sacrament is a necessary task, and may be a rite of passage for young men but it is hardly a symbol of value. It should be seen as something reverent but reverence can be shown by our attitude while receiving the Sacrament. If you are sitting there full of envy that you can't pass the Sarament that is hardly being reverent. I also think the other Priesthood duties are just that "duties" which fall under Priesthood responsibility, whether it's blessing a child or ordaining to an office. But blessing a child for examples requires faith on the part of those asking for the blessing and that is how one participates in those acts.

 

I really do have a hard time with some of the attitudes of the OW group and I'm trying to see their point of view, but in all my years in the church, which include living in an era where women in general didn't have as many opportunities as they do now, it's hard to relate. I still believe a lot of what is disturbing to them is that they are viewing these things from the world's perspective and not a gospel perspective, where we are all equal in opportunity for spiritual blessings, revelation, and power if not actually holding an office in the Priesthood.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Deborah

[Jazzdreamer]

I've been single for many years. When one of the kids needed a blessing I was able to call on the Priesthood, either my home teachers or the Bishopric or even a friend. You always have access to the Priesthood. But even when you don't have the Priesthood around you can call on the powers of the Priesthood, which I've done many times.

OW still fails to understand the difference between "having" the Priesthood and calling on its powers. One of their arguments is that they want their daughters to feel important by being able to pass the Sacrament. If their daughters don't feel important whose fault is that? Why is passing the Sacrament such a rite of passage that one needs to be able to do it to feel valuable. Our young women serve in many capacities. Passing the Sacrament is a necessary task, and may be a rite of passage for young men but it is hardly a symbol of value. It should be seen as something reverent but reverence can be shown by our attitude while receiving the Sacrament. If you are sitting there full of envy that you can't pass the Sarament that is hardly being reverent. I also think the other Priesthood duties are just that "duties" which fall under Priesthood responsibility, whether it's blessing a child or ordaining to an office. But blessing a child for examples requires faith on the part of those asking for the blessing and that is how one participates in those acts.

I really do have a hard time with some of the attitudes of the OW group and I'm trying to see their point of view, but in all my years in the church, which include living in an era where women in general didn't have as many opportunities as they do now, it's hard to relate. I still believe a lot of what is disturbing to them is that they are viewing these things from the world's perspective and not a gospel perspective, where we are all equal in opportunity for spiritual blessings, revelation, and power if not actually holding an office in the Priesthood.

Yea. It's easy enough to call someone to do it. They want it to come from the heart of them I think.

Like I said, I was all for OW in the beginning but honestly, nobody in the OW can agree on what they want. I'm on their Facebook page, I post something...half support half hate it.

And I do believe we are in a sense equal. I mean, god made man and woman how they are for a reason.

I think the biggest problem they don't recognize is that men need women as much as women need men when it comes to the gospel. I'm glad I've had a great support system who has taught me that.

Any daughter of Heavenly Father should feel important of our Heavenly Father. He appreciates us all and wanting their daughters to pass the sacrament seems a little disturbing. Passing that makes them no more or less important than anyone else. I actually feel bad that people feel that way.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 Why is passing the Sacrament such a rite of passage that one needs to be able to do it to feel valuable.

Its not. I remember when I was 13 and a snotty teenager. I really did not want to do it and it felt like a burden sometimes (at that age and time). I am with you Deb I am not sure their movement makes sense. 

[Jazzdreamer]

Its not. I remember when I was 13 and a snotty teenager. I really did not want to do it and it felt like a burden sometimes (at that age and time). I am with you Deb I am not sure their movement makes sense.

I think parts of it make sense but like what has been stated, going to the temple may help these women.

[Stone holm]

I think parts of it make sense but like what has been stated, going to the temple may help these women.

I wouldn't expect the to have a completely united voice, sometimes those who are defending the status quo project a unity of thought and intentions on any group of individuals who are perceived to question the status quo. It is much easier to consider them some kind of a conspiracy with an unrighteous agenda under such a perception.

[Jazzdreamer]

I wouldn't expect the to have a completely united voice, sometimes those who are defending the status quo project a unity of thought and intentions on any group of individuals who are perceived to question the status quo. It is much easier to consider them some kind of a conspiracy with an unrighteous agenda under such a perception.

I think they have good intentions. African Americans weren't allowed the priesthood either at one point, things change. Stuff happens. Heavenly Father will take care of everything.

[Deborah]

If I read another "feel like a dagger in my heart and make me cry with sorrow testimony (referring to the inequality of women in the church) I'll scream. I really need to stop going to that page. This same woman is "campaigning" to get back in YW. Does she understand revelation and callings?

[Kenngo1969]

I think they have good intentions. African Americans weren't allowed the priesthood either at one point, things change. Stuff happens. Heavenly Father will take care of everything.

The trajectory, however, of the change with respect to those of African descent  being given the Priesthood versus the prospect of women being given the Priesthood (at least, given the Priesthood in the way men have gotten it) are different: there was always a contingent of leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints which felt that those of African descent would be given the Priesthood at some point, while there has never been such a contingent with respect to the ordination of women.

 

(That having been said, I'm not at all opposed to women getting the Priesthood if it is the Lord's will revealed through His Prophet.  I would be rather strongly opposed to any change, however, that involves the Church of Jesus Christ bowing to public and/or political/sociological pressure.  While this isn't a criticism of my brothers and sisters who belong to that faith as my brothers and sisters, this isn't the Community of Christ: we don't do things by majority vote because the sociological or political winds are blowing in a certain direction.  If anyone in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is disgruntled with that state of affairs, there are a multitude of faiths from which one can choose that are less sociologically problematic.

[Jazzdreamer]

The trajectory, however, of the change with respect to those of African descent being given the Priesthood versus the prospect of women being given the Priesthood (at least, given the Priesthood in the way men have gotten it) are different: there was always a contingent of leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints which felt that those of African descent would be given the Priesthood at some point, while there has never been such a contingent with respect to the ordination of women.

(That having been said, I'm not at all opposed to women getting the Priesthood if it is the Lord's will revealed through His Prophet. I would be rather strongly opposed to any change, however, that involves the Church of Jesus Christ bowing to public and/or political/sociological pressure. While this isn't a criticism of my brothers and sisters who belong to that faith as my brothers and sisters, this isn't the Community of Christ: we don't do things by majority vote because the sociological or political winds are blowing in a certain direction. If anyone in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is disgruntled with that state of affairs, there are a multitude of faiths from which one can choose that are less sociologically problematic.

Funny you say that. I met with my branch president today for my temple recommend. Before the interview, we talked about me being a feminist and all. We were discussing how previously, I was offended by not having the priesthood but then I realized I was questioning gods authority.

I explained to him all about my affiliation with the OW and other mormon feminist groups. I didn't realize one of the questions would be if I was in any groups that went against the church. I was glad the Holy Ghost prompted me to say something before hand or honestly I would have started crying. But what he told me was being a feminist made me righteous and worthy to stand up for what I believed in and after everything I explained, I was totally fine and deserved to go.

I'm personally coming a long ways from my previous thoughts. I'm realizing "equality" is impossible. Men and women are just different. Period. But ya know what? I also realized that the men in my church treat me as an equal. I'm equal in their eyes and I feel equal. And that's what's important.

[Kenngo1969]

... But ya know what? I also realized that the men in my church treat me as an equal. I'm equal in their eyes and I feel equal. And that's what's important.

That, my dear Sister, is a wonderful observation.  Check out 2 Nephi 26:33.  We may have different roles and different strengths and weaknesses (and I'm not differentiating by gender when I say that; I'm including everyone, whatever his or her background, experiences, or station in life).  But we're all of equal, infinite worth in God's eyes (see Doctrine & Covenants 18:10-16): you're His Daughter, and I'm His Son, and He loves us both Infinitely.

 

P.S.: And congratulations on your Recommend.  You'll never be closer to Heaven in this life than in the Temple.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Kenngo1969

[Okrahomer]

For my knowledge, are you able to link to or otherwise cite this poll, and if possible give known details of how and where it was taken?

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/10/08/big-majority-of-mormons-oppose-women-in-priesthood-including-women/

[Calm]

I was in any groups that went against the church.

 

That was originally put in, iirc, in regards to groups that split off from the Church to practice polygamy.  It is not just anyone who has a difference of opinion about the Church.  It is not a family member who has left the Church even if she's become a rabid anti-mormon.

[Tacenda]

Jazz, I'm surprised you even got one at your age! A TR that is. In the old days, you usually only got one when you go on a mission, get married or are a lot older. Congratulations!

[Kenngo1969]

Jazz, I'm surprised you even got one at your age! A TR that is. In the old days, you usually only got one when you go on a mission, get married or are a lot older. Congratulations!

Perhaps some clarification is in order.  Anyone twelve and older who has been a member of the Church of Jesus Christ for at least a year can get a Temple Recommend to do baptisms for the dead.  I did, back when dinosaurs roamed the earth and we baptized cavemen, errrrr, cave-people by proxy!