A Moderate Mormon Manifesto

[juliann]

Sister Neylaine McBain posted http://www.neylanmcbaine.com/2013/10/a-moderate-mormon-manifesto.html. While she can sympathize with the Ordain Women movement, she doesn't go that far. The manifesto is an interesting read; worth the time to go through it in my opinion. In the article she asks a question:

 

What is your opinion on the how far the spheres of gender roles/primary responsibility overlap?

Just ask single women who have to do everything the man would do in the home.  I think the point is that these roles are for the most part assigned or taught not organic.  That is not to deny that there are differences or predispositions in the sexes on a statistical level, there most certainly are.  Upper body strength does become an issue and women are always going to be shortchanged in that area.  Pregnancy and lactation is an issue and men will always be shortchanged (or freed depending on how one looks at it)  in that area.  So overlap would depend on what will be accepted by those demand strictly delineated roles as God's doing.

[EllenMaksoud]

Owing to my various experiences, it is not that long since I began to see men as anything but the givers of pain. Happily, the Mormons have begun to change that experience. Still, it is hard for me to yield to a man so that colors every encounter I have with them. AND, in absence of a reliable male, I have changed the oil, a U joint, put my own chains on all four wheels, and changed diapers, washed dishes and baked cakes. I have not chewed tobacco. To me, it is obvious that I can do anything a man can, including shoot, and gut an Elk.

 

So maybe it is not a question of function but of nature. It would have been nice to have someone interrupt my dish-washing with his chin beside my neck. It would have been nice to have him get rid of the snake on the porch.  And, no matter how much people want to explain it away, God did say that I would look to my husband, though I do not know of any women who will vocalize about that. We tend to wear a public mask that says that we women tolerate their men and take care of them, and to be sure, men do certainly take a lot of care.

 

I am not going to say here, but there are qualities in a man that can make them really endearing. And, it helps to have someone to share the burdens with. It would be nice to have a man there to answer the door when a man comes around. It took a man to baptize me. It takes a man or two to give a blessing. Can women do those things? I doubt that a 4'11 woman could baptize me. I have most certainly felt the power of the Holy Spirit when a man blesses me.

 

Can my sister do the same thing?  I am sort of tired of hearing that women can't be priests. I don't want to but to those that want to, then let them try. It could surprise everyone.

[ERayR]

For us, my wife liked shopping.  I was by far the better cook and I cooked most of the meals and she cleaned up until the children were old enough and then they had kitchen chores.  Each of our children can cook well.  However, neither of them seemed to ever really learn the value of keeping a clean bedroom.  Growing up they were pigs; now they are better or at least I hope so.

 

I don't know how to sew, but my wife is a true artist.  Though she does enjoy teaching as much as doing, she did teach our children the basics and I think she taught our daughter more complex things.  My wife loved working in the yard; particularly planting flowers and such. I did the mowing and she planted the flowers. I was much better with the babies. She nursed and I changed, bathed and clothed more often than not.  As I said, I don't see a need to divy up chores based upon sex; it is more what each enjoys or accepts doing.  There are trade-offs.  

 

I can remember one of those members coming to our home that wanted to share a great message. We specifically said, if it is Shamway, don't bother.  He came anyway.  Midway through his Amway presentation he started telling us how to run the business and what I needed to do as the man and what my wife needed to do as the woman.  My wife told him to get out of home; I backed her up and he left. Geez, don't ever try and tell my wife what she should do as a woman. People are different I guess and different people run their homes differently. It takes all kinds. 

 

In our home my wife much preferred the "traditional" female roles.  However, she didn't really care for cooking so until we got kids old enough to teach cooking skills to, I helped out when I could.  I worked shift work or farm work during those early years so it was not always possible for me to do it.  My wife loved to sew new garments but detested patching so she made new clothes and I did the patching.

 

Yes, Isay whatever it takes to get it done.

[Stone holm]

Is the assignment of roles by gender somehow critical to the Gospel of Christ?

[katherine the great]

Personally, I think however a couple decides to split up responsibilities is their own business.  If a guy wants to be the homemaker and the gal wants to work and they are both happy with that arrangement, that's what they should do.  The church, however is an organization.  They can structure it any way they like.  If some of it falls down gender lines, I don't have a problem with that.  I personally am happy with my husband being the priesthood holder.  I was happy while I was raising my children and I'm happy now pursuing my education and career.  I don't WANT priesthood duties on top of all that.

[Stone holm]

Personally, I think however a couple decides to split up responsibilities is their own business.  If a guy wants to be the homemaker and the gal wants to work and they are both happy with that arrangement, that's what they should do.  The church, however is an organization.  They can structure it any way they like.  If some of it falls down gender lines, I don't have a problem with that.  I personally am happy with my husband being the priesthood holder.  I was happy while I was raising my children and I'm happy now pursuing my education and career.  I don't WANT priesthood duties on top of all that.

Which is fine for you, should it then be fine for all your sisters in the Church?

[Garden Girl]

Personally, I think however a couple decides to split up responsibilities is their own business.  If a guy wants to be the homemaker and the gal wants to work and they are both happy with that arrangement, that's what they should do.  The church, however is an organization.  They can structure it any way they like.  If some of it falls down gender lines, I don't have a problem with that.  I personally am happy with my husband being the priesthood holder.  I was happy while I was raising my children and I'm happy now pursuing my education and career.  I don't WANT priesthood duties on top of all that.

 

Hi Katherine... so good to see you.... love your avatar picture...

 

I agree... I worked full time for 30 years... if my hubby got home early he'd make the salad, etc. And he had certain dishes he was just better at... gravy for one... potato salad... complete breakfast... etc  but he could actually cook quite well because when he got out of the service he was a cook for a small cafe in San Fran. 

If I needed help around the house he was always willing to help me.  We worked together always...

 

GG 

[Garden Girl]

Which is fine for you, should it then be fine for all your sisters in the Church?

 

It is for me and about 90% of the sisters... this OW group is a small minority of sisters who do not represent the women of the Church nor our perspectives... they have their own agenda (priesthood ord.) and they don't care what anyone else says, particularly our leaders...

 

GG

[katherine the great]

Which is fine for you, should it then be fine for all your sisters in the Church?

I love hearing women in the church expressing their opinions.  I have plenty of my own that are not particularly mainstream in LDS thought.  This just isn't really one of them.  

[katherine the great]

Hi Katherine... so good to see you.... love your avatar picture...

 

Thanks GG.  Good to see you too.  That's my youngest son--on a mission now!

[Stargazer]

 If I could work, I would definitely be doing so simply to keep my mind occupied and it would be nice to be able to add to the family income so he wouldn't worry as much (thankfully we seem to have come to a secure enough spot we don't have the monthly angst right after the time of the month when all the bills come due).

 

 

As to adding to the family income, here's my suggestion: you should write a book.  I've read a great deal of what you've written here in this forum, and you can't say that you don't know how to write.  I think all you need is a subject that catches your interest and off you could go.

[Stargazer]

Owing to my various experiences, it is not that long since I began to see men as anything but the givers of pain. Happily, the Mormons have begun to change that experience. Still, it is hard for me to yield to a man so that colors every encounter I have with them. AND, in absence of a reliable male, I have changed the oil, a U joint, put my own chains on all four wheels, and changed diapers, washed dishes and baked cakes. I have not chewed tobacco. To me, it is obvious that I can do anything a man can, including shoot, and gut an Elk.

 

Holy cow!  I have never shot anything, let alone gutted it!  I have a hunting rifle, though.  Just in case.  Don't ask.  Well, you can ask if you want.  Anyway, I've never changed a U joint, either.

 

I have to tell you that I am highly amused with your insight as to men as "givers of pain". 

[Calm]

I think all you need is a subject that catches your interest and off you could go.

Two problems with that....though I love it that you think so...

 

I have lots of subjects I am interested in but none that I am passionate about (though I am very committed to a few)....this concerns me enough to wonder if there is something 'off' about me (because I am very, very intense when discussing something captures my attention for a time...enough so that friends have often commented on how I 'light up').  I would love to love something enough that I would push past the disabilities that my disorder currently cause for me...but have yet to find something, not even my beloved physics fills that void.

 

I am always willing to take suggestions to consider though.  

 

Two...I was terminally shy in my youth (I don't remember ever enjoying one activity that wasn't me off by myself in my youth and many were pure agony especially lunchtime in high school where every day was a debate on who to eat with who would be least offended by my presence...a totally unrealistic emotional perception that I knew as wrong intellectually but still suffered from to the point of being physically sick to my stomach) and often felt like others saw me as more intelligent and informed than I really was (thus I turned down invitations to math tournaments because I was positive I wouldn't actually understand the questions and be totally blank...contrary to actual experiences in testing which I tended to ace, but I could also see the more complicated implications of the questions and would assume that would be what was asked in contests and such).  Anyway, this added up to me feeling like no one was interested in what I had to say (probably a good deal with having two brilliant older siblings who never had the time for me once they were past the age of 8 save to ridicule me about my oddities at times...even though they are very good people and always were, my siblings and myself just never bonded in that way in our youth with each other though I have managed to do with my older sister in adulthood).  Even after years of having people tell me they appreciate my posts, I still had a flashback moment last night on something unrelated to the board feeling like I should never be considered as someone who 'knew' things...that my understanding was all shallow and for show.  That feeling got so embedded into me in my youth I am not sure I will ever overcome it enough to actually put myself out much more than I have at this point....which I would never have thought I could have managed even ten years ago.  This board has been a real blessing for me in dealing with my shyness...but don't think it is a cure all.  

 

hmmm...I think I may use this board too much as a therapy session but it is tons cheaper than actual therapy, lol.

 

PS:  this is not me fishing for more compliment, by the way; just putting too much effort into explaining myself as I tend to do in order to express how much I really appreciated what you said and other positive things others have said.  It has meant a tremendous amount to me, something concrete that I can go to for reassurance for one thing. (believing that people are interested in me outside my family and a few friends such as the UMW is probably the only thing in my life I still need reassurance about...especially when sleep deprived as I am right now, lol)

Edited October 6, 2013 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

Cal, thanks for opening up like that. I think you were born in the wrong time period. Nowadays the "nerds", are the cool people, I see a lot of it when I sub. And I know I'm not suppose to compliment or gush, but you have been a great example here of telling it like it is about yourself and that is so helpful. I'm afraid I was probably a big ditz at times in HS, and had moments of shyness. My lunchtime would often be, just driving home to eat. High School was torture for me.

PS: I hope you find that "something" that will get you excited enough to surpass the disabilities with your illness one day soon.

[Calm]

 And I know I'm not suppose to compliment or gush, but you have been a great example here of telling it like it is about yourself and that is so helpful. 

 

Oh, I don't mind the compliments one bit...just feel better when it is not me asking for them and they come up spontaneously.  

 

I go back and forth about opening up, but I know that I have been helped a great deal when I find out there are others who have been where I am so if I feel it appropriate, I push myself to put in detail that isn't needed by the vast majority of readers but might just mean something to someone who is like I was at 20, trying to figure out how to function as part of society when all I wanted to do was run home and bury myself in my books or take off for the mountains for a solitary walk.

[katherine the great]

Oh, I don't mind the compliments one bit...just feel better when it is not me asking for them and they come up spontaneously.  

 

I go back and forth about opening up, but I know that I have been helped a great deal when I find out there are others who have been where I am so if I feel it appropriate, I push myself to put in detail that isn't needed by the vast majority of readers but might just mean something to someone who is like I was at 20, trying to figure out how to function as part of society when all I wanted to do was run home and bury myself in my books or take off for the mountains for a solitary walk.

Sounds like a great description for a protagonist in a novel!  

[Calm]

Sounds like a great description for a protagonist in a novel!  

I come up with great plots and not bad descriptions...if I say so myself, but my dialogues sound like they were created by a computer program, they are so forced and stilted.  Maybe if I write about a race that doesn't talk at all.  

 

Much better at technical writing.

Edited October 6, 2013 by calmoriah

[sweetpotatoh]

Jiffy Lube was not an option.  It was crawl under the car and get your hands dirty.

There is something about knowing it was done correctly.

[katherine the great]

I come up with great plots and not bad descriptions...if I say so myself, but my dialogues sound like they were created by a computer program, they are so forced and stilted.  Maybe if I write about a race that doesn't talk at all.  

 

 

Actually not a bad idea...Could be quite interesting!

[Senator]

There is something about knowing it was done correctly.

 

Heh..

 

After one oil change I opened the hood to find dangling vacuum lines and a disconnected MAF sensor.  I now always check to see that it was done correctly!

[wenglund]

What is your opinion on the how far the spheres of gender roles/primary responsibility overlap?

 

I believe they should overlap to the extent that God directs--whether generally for the Church or individually for each family unit.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Stone holm]

I believe they should overlap to the extent that God directs--whether generally for the Church or individually for each family unit.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Well that cleared up that issue.

[Nofear]

I believe they should overlap to the extent that God directs--whether generally for the Church or individually for each family unit.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

Of course. The question implies what do you think God would direct? Personally, I think our mortal probation will stay the course until no earlier than the Millenium and perhaps not even then but I was curious, nonetheless, how those who think otherwise (or don't) suppose priestesshood may manifest.

[Stone holm]

Of course. The question implies what do you think God would direct? Personally, I think our mortal probation will stay the course until no earlier than the Millenium and perhaps not even then but I was curious, nonetheless, how those who think otherwise (or don't) suppose priestesshood may manifest.

Status quo isn't that what is expected by all the righteous?

[danieldemol]

Somone has a promising career as a businessman ahead