A Moderate Mormon Manifesto

[Nofear]

Sister Neylaine McBain posted http://www.neylanmcbaine.com/2013/10/a-moderate-mormon-manifesto.html. While she can sympathize with the Ordain Women movement, she doesn't go that far. The manifesto is an interesting read; worth the time to go through it in my opinion. In the article she asks a question:

 

One prominent Mormon equality feminist told me I made her “head spin” when I expressed confidence in unique responsibilities that I believe define women’s priesthood and can be seen in their infancy in the temple. For feminists like her, biology and gender personality differences do not justify unique responsibilities or spaces. But are not all communities built on carefully negotiated Venn diagrams of overlapping but contrasting forces? Isn’t the legal system of a civilized society simply the practical implementation of how much justice and mercy, represented by separate spheres, overlap with each other? Don’t our educational systems rely on agreed upon negotiations between knowledge and ignorance? The push and pull of contrasting forces is at the heart of gender conversations in the Church and in the world. How much should the separate spheres of men and women overlap? Historically, those spheres have not overlapped very much at all, and feminism from its earliest days as a movement has been an effort to acquire mainstream cultural acceptance for a greater overlap of the spheres. But how far do we go in overlapping those spheres?

 

What is your opinion on the how far the spheres of gender roles/primary responsibility overlap?

[Senator]

Sister Neylaine McBain posted http://www.neylanmcbaine.com/2013/10/a-moderate-mormon-manifesto.html. While she can sympathize with the Ordain Women movement, she doesn't go that far. The manifesto is an interesting read; worth the time to go through it in my opinion. In the article she asks a question:

 

What is your opinion on the how far the spheres of gender roles/primary responsibility overlap?

 

Look, from the very beginning God set the first couple down and said, "I give you, Adam (speaking specifically to him), dominion over the whole earth".  What more needs to be said?

[CV75]

Sister Neylaine McBain posted http://www.neylanmcbaine.com/2013/10/a-moderate-mormon-manifesto.html. While she can sympathize with the Ordain Women movement, she doesn't go that far. The manifesto is an interesting read; worth the time to go through it in my opinion. In the article she asks a question:

 

What is your opinion on the how far the spheres of gender roles/primary responsibility overlap?

I'm not sure if it's a matter of overlapping but of integrating. There is so much that is common to all God's children, the few differences that remain are easily accentuated and can be applied to accomplsih either good or evil. If they are integrated, they won't be "dys"integrated, and they will be used for the fulfillment of God's work.

[BCSpace]

What is your opinion on the how far the spheres of gender roles/primary responsibility overlap?

 

The primary responsibility of the one is the secondary responsibility of the other.

[thesometimesaint]

Sister Neylaine McBain posted http://www.neylanmcbaine.com/2013/10/a-moderate-mormon-manifesto.html. While she can sympathize with the Ordain Women movement, she doesn't go that far. The manifesto is an interesting read; worth the time to go through it in my opinion. In the article she asks a question:

 

What is your opinion on the how far the spheres of gender roles/primary responsibility overlap?

 

Neither is the man without the woman, nor the woman without the man in the Lord.

[Nofear]

The primary responsibility of the one is the secondary responsibility of the other.

So no overlap (except as a secondary situation)? No callings / duties in the Church or society but that they are preferentially gender differentiated?

[Storm Rider]

Neither is the man without the woman, nor the woman without the man in the Lord.

Yes, and that is often taken completely out of context. What is worse is that when corrected, the blinders go up and repetition goes on knowing the error. What does that indicate?

I prefer the symbolism of Yin and Yang; there is value in both the feminine and the masculine and the efforts to portray them the same is ignorance to an extreme. It is a bit like the the monkeys that do not see, hear, or speak the difference all the while knowing in their hearts there are differences.

Regardlous, the quote above is worth pondering. At a time when everyone bemoans the lack of influence of fathers and the placement of too much familial responsibility on mothers, we have a segment of society that determined to take a mother completely out of the home. Is motherhood valued so little?

[Buckeye]

What is your opinion on the how far the spheres of gender roles/primary responsibility overlap?

 

I've heard something about all truth being combined into one great whole.

[Buckeye]

The primary responsibility of the one is the secondary responsibility of the other.

 

A few examples:

 

Changing diapers is a primary responsibility for women; secondary for men.

Changing car oil is a primary responsibility for men; secondary for women.

Gathering fast offerings is a primary responsibility for young men; secondary for young women.

Quilting blankets for Africa is a primary responsibility for young women; secondary for young men.

[rpn]

Buckeye, surely you are joking.   Isn't diaper and oil changing related to the proximity and talents of the person, not their gender?

[ERayR]

Buckeye, surely you are joking.   Isn't diaper and oil changing related to the proximity and talents of the person, not their gender?

 

That may be but I could never get my wife to change oil so made a deal with he.  I wouldn't ask her to change oil and she didn't ask me to change diapers.  Other things we compromised on. 

[Senator]

That may be but I could never get my wife to change oil so made a deal with he.  I wouldn't ask her to change oil and she didn't ask me to change diapers.  Other things we compromised on. 

 

And she accepted that deal?

[Buckeye]

Buckeye, surely you are joking.   Isn't diaper and oil changing related to the proximity and talents of the person, not their gender?

 

That's the point - to show the absurdity of BCSpace's statement by listing a few examples.  99%+ of the talents a man or woman brings to their marriage are not a result of their sex.  There are very few roles, attributes, abilities, etc. that are truely gender-specific.  The few that are are determined by our biology, not our choices.  The minute someone has to teach or preach about a gender difference, you can be certain it is not a real difference.

[ERayR]

And she accepted that deal?

She absolutely hated changing oil.  She didn't like crawling under a car.

[BCSpace]

So no overlap (except as a secondary situation)? No callings / duties in the Church or society but that they are preferentially gender differentiated?

 

With respect to the Proclamation on the Family and the Priesthood, yes.

[BCSpace]

A few examples:

 

Changing diapers is a primary responsibility for women; secondary for men.

Changing car oil is a primary responsibility for men; secondary for women.

Gathering fast offerings is a primary responsibility for young men; secondary for young women.

Quilting blankets for Africa is a primary responsibility for young women; secondary for young men.

 

Now you're waxing Pharisaical.  But sure, the man is the bread winner and the woman's responsibility is for raising the children at home.  Sometimes that's not realistic or possible and so the man and woman participate in each as necessary.

Edited October 3, 2013 by BCSpace

[Senator]

She absolutely hated changing oil.  She didn't like crawling under a car.

 

Wow, you came out on top of that deal!! One oil change every 3 months or so..(cough..JiffyLube) compared to a half a dozen or more diapers a day? Sweet deal..

[thesometimesaint]

Yes, and that is often taken completely out of context. What is worse is that when corrected, the blinders go up and repetition goes on knowing the error. What does that indicate?

I prefer the symbolism of Yin and Yang; there is value in both the feminine and the masculine and the efforts to portray them the same is ignorance to an extreme. It is a bit like the the monkeys that do not see, hear, or speak the difference all the while knowing in their hearts there are differences.

Regardlous, the quote above is worth pondering. At a time when everyone bemoans the lack of influence of fathers and the placement of too much familial responsibility on mothers, we have a segment of society that determined to take a mother completely out of the home. Is motherhood valued so little?

 

Of courrse the only way I use it is the way the Church uses it.   But seriously I've always thought of the phrase as requiring the full commitment of both the husband and the wife to the service of their family through the Lord. I expect some divison of labor, but not one just based on sex. The person whom won't do something needed for their family because of sex is really no better off than someone whom can't do it for whatever reason.

Edited October 3, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[ERayR]

Wow, you came out on top of that deal!! One oil change every 3 months or so..(cough..JiffyLube) compared to a half a dozen or more diapers a day? Sweet deal..

 

Jiffy Lube was not an option.  It was crawl under the car and get your hands dirty. 

[Senator]

Jiffy Lube was not an option.  It was crawl under the car and get your hands dirty. 

 

Still a sweet deal..

[Nofear]

A few posts from men, ranging from lots of overlap (e.g. Buckeye) to essentially no overlap (e.g. BCSpace). Sisters?

[Storm Rider]

I am not an advocate that a marriage household is divided up into responsibilities according to sex. It was not that way in my family and I see no reason for it to be for others. Why would you think differently? Are all those that do not agree with the OW group supposed to be Neanderthals? To think in such extremes is not helpful for intelligent conversation.

[ERayR]

I am not an advocate that a marriage household is divided up into responsibilities according to sex. It was not that way in my family and I see no reason for it to be for others. Why would you think differently? Are all those that do not agree with the OW group supposed to be Neanderthals? To think in such extremes is not helpful for intelligent conversation.

 

My mother and father saw to it the boys learned cooking, sewing and laundry and the girls helped with the farm work.  My wife and I did the same.

[Calm]

Sometimes we are off on our own jobs, sometimes we work together.  Due to our circumstances, my husband has slowly become the one who does the vast majority of shopping and we split cooking, he does his own laundry by choice.  In my better days, I used to wire up the lamps and other stuff, rip up rugs, move the heavy furniture around, clean out the garage....he never used to do bathrooms, but he's finally doing his own since I just won't bother as I figure if someone is the sole user of something, they are responsible for taking care of it if they are capable of doing so....but he's more than made up for all the bathroom cleaning I did over the years by having to clean the kitchen most of the time these days, poor guy.  If I could work, I would definitely be doing so simply to keep my mind occupied and it would be nice to be able to add to the family income so he wouldn't worry as much (thankfully we seem to have come to a secure enough spot we don't have the monthly angst right after the time of the month when all the bills come due).

 

I am the one who organizes almost everything though...I don't know if it is because I trained my family just to leave it to me (since they knew it would get put away if they just waited me out) due to my obsessiveness with everything having a place so I know exactly where everything is or it was just that his family lived in a home more cluttered than mine (it was smaller with three more children) so he just isn't aware of it or because he had so little when in his youth, he just never developed the habit....he is the one that goes out and has fun with the kids (though I make sure there is plenty of opportunity to do so), even now when they are adults.  My family was always work first and I married him for his ability to enjoy life and not be serious...

 

I don't know if that is the usual gender division though...I think that is more just the families we came from and habits we picked up that will probably persist until we die.  I certainly never decided that certain work was his and others were mine because of our gender, we chose what we wanted to do based on what mattered to us most and eventually the necessities were covered  and the rest we just make sure we aren't causing any problems for the other with our projects...

[Storm Rider]

My mother and father saw to it the boys learned cooking, sewing and laundry and the girls helped with the farm work.  My wife and I did the same.

 

For us, my wife liked shopping.  I was by far the better cook and I cooked most of the meals and she cleaned up until the children were old enough and then they had kitchen chores.  Each of our children can cook well.  However, neither of them seemed to ever really learn the value of keeping a clean bedroom.  Growing up they were pigs; now they are better or at least I hope so.

 

I don't know how to sew, but my wife is a true artist.  Though she does enjoy teaching as much as doing, she did teach our children the basics and I think she taught our daughter more complex things.  My wife loved working in the yard; particularly planting flowers and such. I did the mowing and she planted the flowers. I was much better with the babies. She nursed and I changed, bathed and clothed more often than not.  As I said, I don't see a need to divy up chores based upon sex; it is more what each enjoys or accepts doing.  There are trade-offs.  

 

I can remember one of those members coming to our home that wanted to share a great message. We specifically said, if it is Shamway, don't bother.  He came anyway.  Midway through his Amway presentation he started telling us how to run the business and what I needed to do as the man and what my wife needed to do as the woman.  My wife told him to get out of home; I backed her up and he left. Geez, don't ever try and tell my wife what she should do as a woman. People are different I guess and different people run their homes differently. It takes all kinds.