Why Do These Things Happen?

[inquiringmind]

I was reading an online news story about James Dee Harmston (the leader of The True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of The Last Days), who died of a heart attack on June 27th, 2013, and I was struck by this comment about an ex member.

 

 

She hopes that his death will break up the group, but she suspects the believers will be even more convinced, "especially with him dying on the same day that Joseph Smith was killed. With their superstitions, they’re really going to believe even more that he was a prophet and the reincarnated Joseph Smith."

.http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56525075-78/church-harmston-tlc-christ.html.csp

 

Isn't God in control of coincidences like this?

 

If these people, "with their superstitions," will be likely to "believe even more" that this "James Dee Harmston" was a prophet, because he died on the same day Joseph did, why did God arrange things this way?

 

Maybe I tend to be "superstitious" myself, but I tend to see things in coincidences like this.

 

If God doesn't intend us to, why does He cause (or allow) them?

 

I'd appreciate any thoughts on this (and any thoughts on how to define "superstitious.")

 

Thank you.

Edited September 20, 2013 by inquiringmind

[Robert F. Smith]

I was reading an online news story about James Dee Harmston (the leader of The True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of The Last Days), who died of a heart attack on June 27th, 2013, and I was struck by this comment about an ex member.

 

.http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56525075-78/church-harmston-tlc-christ.html.csp

 

Isn't God in control of coincidences like this?

 

If these people, "with their superstitions," will be likely to "believe even more" that this "James Dee Harmston" was a prophet, because he died on the same day Joseph did, why did God arrange things this way?

 

Maybe I tend to be "superstitious" myself, but I tend to see things in coincidences like this.

 

If God doesn't intend us to, why does He cause (or allow) them?

 

I'd appreciate any thoughts on this (and any thoughts on how to define "superstitious.")

 

Thank you.

The LDS Church theology teaches that people are free to make their own decisions.  Blaming God is just a way of shifting blame away from the free agents who decide.  God doesn't arrange things this way, people do.  Other religions do, however, have beliefs which make God the total sovereign and the only free agent.  Such irrational belief carries the seeds of its own destruction.

[Duncan]

The LDS Church theology teaches that people are free to make their own decisions.  Blaming God is just a way of shifting blame away from the free agents who decide.  God doesn't arrange things this way, people do.  Other religions do, however, have beliefs which make God the total sovereign and the only free agent.  Such irrational belief carries the seeds of its own destruction.

 

 

I've been taught, not personally! by Elder Maxwell that God micromanages our lives and so he is in the details of our lives

 

http://ldsmag.com/ldsmag/articles/030604details.html

 

“The Lord does a good job of micromanagement through the Holy Spirit, doesn’t he!”

http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=138

 

I read what he wrote later as to that story about the lady that wanted to take her won life, I am in the dark about how involved God is or wants to be or how life should be  as per his design or not design or whatever

 

so, I dunno what to make of it! haha!  I guess though God wants to micromanage our lives but doesn't necessarily does so if we don't follow the spirit but i don't know what that means for non Mormons

Edited September 20, 2013 by Duncan

[Questing Beast]

I was reading an online news story about James Dee Harmston (the leader of The True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of The Last Days), who died of a heart attack on June 27th, 2013, and I was struck by this comment about an ex member.

 

.http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56525075-78/church-harmston-tlc-christ.html.csp

 

Isn't God in control of coincidences like this?

 

If these people, "with their superstitions," will be likely to "believe even more" that this "James Dee Harmston" was a prophet, because he died on the same day Joseph did, why did God arrange things this way?

 

Maybe I tend to be "superstitious" myself, but I tend to see things in coincidences like this.

 

If God doesn't intend us to, why does He cause (or allow) them?

 

I'd appreciate any thoughts on this (and any thoughts on how to define "superstitious.")

 

Thank you.

There was something like a one in 365 chance of Harmston dying on 27 June in a given year. If he had died on my birthday instead should that mean something too?

 

"God" has a sense of humor and sees the "big picture", while we live inside this "dark glass" world like bugs inside a bottle. At least we "bugs" are equipped mentally to ask questions endlessly about what is going on outside of our "jar".

 

Superstition is any belief that there are connections that mean things when no evidence can be shown or demonstrated as proof. Even science, to some extent, is believed in superstitiously, since science cannot actually prove anything, but only demonstrate through repeated experiment that something is likely enough to be true all of the time: enough so that we spend countless billions of dollars exploiting the findings of said-experiments and have for years created medicines, built machines and begun to explore space, etc. Yet the body of ignorance vastly outweighs the little that we know enough to call "facts". Inside of the vast ignorance lives superstition....

[inquiringmind]

God doesn't arrange things this way, people do. .

 

So are you saying that James Dee Harmston didn't really die of natural causes?

 

If he or his followers arranged for him to die on June 27, wouldn't his death have to be a suicide or homocide?

 

If he died of a heart attack, on that date, wasn't it God who arranged it?

[ERayR]

So are you saying that James Dee Harmston didn't really die of natural causes?

 

If he or his followers arranged for him to die on June 27, wouldn't his death have to be a suicide or homocide?

 

If he died of a heart attack, on that date, wasn't it God who arranged it?

 

I will let Robert Smith answer for himself but I will also point out a glaring misinterpretation of his answer.  I read his answer to mean that God does not micro-manage events.

[inquiringmind]

There was something like a one in 365 chance of Harmston dying on 27 June in a given year. If he had died on my birthday instead should that mean something too?

 

365 to one seem like pretty long odds to me.

 

 

If he had died on my birthday instead should that mean something too?

 

If you had some historical significance relevant to his religious claims, maybe it would.

 

 

 

Superstition is any belief that there are connections that mean things when no evidence can be shown or demonstrated as proof.

 

What kind of evidence?

 

Joseph Smith Jr. started the restoration movement, and he died on June 27th.

 

Harmston claimed to be his rightful successor (and/or reincarnation), and died on the same day.

 

If he died of natural causes, he couldn't have arranged this, but if there is a God in control of life and death He presumably did.

 

If the ex member quoted in the OP is right, Harmston's followers will be more inclined to believe his claims because of this "coincidence."

 

Is this "evidence" of a connection?

 

Is it evidence that the God in control of life and death is telling these people that Harmston was a prophet (like Joseph, who also died on June 27th)?

 

And if he wasn't a prophet, and these people really are more inclined to believe he was because of this "coincidence," why does He allow coincidences that further misconceptions, and reinforce false beliefs?

 

The Muslims say "Whoever Allah guides none can send astray, and whoever Allah sends astray, none can guide."

 

Could they be right?

 

Their Holy Book says "And they deceived and God deceived, and God (is) the best (of) the deceivers." (Qur'an 3:54.)

 

And even in the Bible, He does seem to sometimes cause (or allow) circumstances that mislead, as in 2 Kings 3 (starting in verse 16.)

 

 

And he said, Thus saith the Lord, Make this valley full of ditches.For thus saith the Lord, Ye shall not see wind, neither shall ye see rain; yet that valley shall be filled with water, that ye may drink, both ye, and your cattle, and your beasts.And this is but a light thing in the sight of the Lord: he will deliver the Moabites also into your hand...And it came to pass in the morning, when the meat offering was offered, that, behold, there came water by the way of Edom, and the country was filled with water.And when all the Moabites heard that the kings were come up to fight against them, they gathered all that were able to put on armour, and upward, and stood in the border.And they rose up early in the morning, and the sun shone upon the water, and the Moabites saw the water on the other side as red as blood:And they said, This is blood: the kings are surely slain, and they have smitten one another: now therefore, Moab, to the spoil.And when they came to the camp of Israel, the Israelites rose up and smote the Moabites, so that they fled before them: but they went forward smiting the Moabites, even in their country.

 

But the Bible (and, I believe, The Book of Mormon) also says that He cannot lie, and this is why I've sometimes asked whether there's some difference between lying and deception (and have started threads on that subject here.)

 

So why did God take Harmston on the same day that Joseph Smith Jr. died?

 

Is He telling his followers that he was a prophet, or does He want them to go on believing that even if it isn't true, or could there be some other reason I haven't seen or thought of?

Edited September 20, 2013 by inquiringmind

[mercyngrace]

I've been taught, not personally! by Elder Maxwell that God micromanages our lives and so he is in the details of our lives

 

http://ldsmag.com/ldsmag/articles/030604details.html

 

“The Lord does a good job of micromanagement through the Holy Spirit, doesn’t he!”

http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=138

 

I read what he wrote later as to that story about the lady that wanted to take her won life, I am in the dark about how involved God is or wants to be or how life should be  as per his design or not design or whatever

 

so, I dunno what to make of it! haha!  I guess though God wants to micromanage our lives but doesn't necessarily does so if we don't follow the spirit but i don't know what that means for non Mormons

 

 

How do we account for the fact that God helps one man find a nickel on his way home from work so that he can buy himself a piece of chicken while leaving entire tribes of people in the hands of a genocidal maniac?

 

Does God love the Mormon fellow more? Is he more righteous? Does he pray better?

 

How do we decide when it's God helping us out or when coincidence or another's agency is in play?

 

What if the person who lost that nickel on the side of the road had walked home along a different path?

 

Would the absence of the nickel still be God's hand in the life of the hungry cyclist?

 

One answer I've gotten from fellow church members in the past is that God helps us in those somewhat trivial matters so that we have faith when we are in circumstances where He does not intercede. 

 

Another answer I've received is that God simply isn't involved in the small stuff and we affix His signature to serendipity.

 

For my part, I imagine the math must be a little more complex than either of these responses allow. I can't deny the overwhelming sensation that God has been with me in some small acts of grace as well as in some of my personal tragedies. He's also felt noticeably absent in spite of some of my most pleading prayers, without regard to my worthiness or the good that would have come from His intercession. 

 

So. I've stopped trying to answer questions about when and where God is or isn't acting. I just don't always know. But I also reject the idea that when something good happens, it's God and when something bad happens, it's an abuse of agency. It strikes me as self-serving and simplistic.

[Tacenda]

I was reading an online news story about James Dee Harmston (the leader of The True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of The Last Days), who died of a heart attack on June 27th, 2013, and I was struck by this comment about an ex member.

 

.http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56525075-78/church-harmston-tlc-christ.html.csp

 

Isn't God in control of coincidences like this?

 

If these people, "with their superstitions," will be likely to "believe even more" that this "James Dee Harmston" was a prophet, because he died on the same day Joseph did, why did God arrange things this way?

 

Maybe I tend to be "superstitious" myself, but I tend to see things in coincidences like this.

 

If God doesn't intend us to, why does He cause (or allow) them?

 

I'd appreciate any thoughts on this (and any thoughts on how to define "superstitious.")

 

Thank you.

Maybe to see how dumb they really are?  No, I shouldn't say that,  I've been overly superstitious  in my life too.  As with the comments above, I wonder too how God can do small things to increase our faith, but yet so many in the world suffer with no answers at all.  And many in the world starve and die with no help.  But like in my life I pray to find something and get an answer, I just don't get it.  It's probably just my mind doing the work, similar to how we google something on the internet and get answers, but I'm contributing it to Him.  I hope this is the case, because if not, there is a stark discrepancy that doesn't look good for God and His ways.     

[Calm]

There have been a number of men who have claimed to be JS's successor, eventually one of them is going to die on the same day. Doesn't make him the actual successor though.

In a room of 23 people, there is a 50/50 chance that two people will have the same birthday. It is simply a matter of math.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem

Edited September 20, 2013 by calmoriah

[Duncan]

How do we account for the fact that God helps one man find a nickel on his way home from work so that he can buy himself a piece of chicken while leaving entire tribes of people in the hands of a genocidal maniac?

 

Does God love the Mormon fellow more? Is he more righteous? Does he pray better?

 

How do we decide when it's God helping us out or when coincidence or another's agency is in play?

 

What if the person who lost that nickel on the side of the road had walked home along a different path?

 

Would the absence of the nickel still be God's hand in the life of the hungry cyclist?

 

One answer I've gotten from fellow church members in the past is that God helps us in those somewhat trivial matters so that we have faith when we are in circumstances where He does not intercede. 

 

Another answer I've received is that God simply isn't involved in the small stuff and we affix His signature to serendipity.

 

For my part, I imagine the math must be a little more complex than either of these responses allow. I can't deny the overwhelming sensation that God has been with me in some small acts of grace as well as in some of my personal tragedies. He's also felt noticeably absent in spite of some of my most pleading prayers, without regard to my worthiness or the good that would have come from His intercession. 

 

So. I've stopped trying to answer questions about when and where God is or isn't acting. I just don't always know. But I also reject the idea that when something good happens, it's God and when something bad happens, it's an abuse of agency. It strikes me as self-serving and simplistic.

 

 

and that's my thinking as well. I don't know what should happen or shouldn't have happened. It's believed that my G-Grandmas committed suicide and so I don't know why things would have gotten so bad in her life that she did herself a mischief or how all that works. I am not quick to judge what is a blessing and what isn't. I dunno, I just have to live my life and hope that God keeps his promises

[Questing Beast]

Everything has significance. we just don't see most of it. But superstition is applying significance fallaciously, which we excel at doing.

 

June 27th is one day out of each and every year. A religion maker was killed on that day. A religion maker died on that day many years later, with some connection to the previous religion maker. MMM occurred on 11 September. 9/11/2001 was a coincidence, but if Mormons had done the flying instead of Muslims there would be a connection. God isn't speaking through the dates of men. Too much fallacious content is bound up with our self-applied significance to dates. God speaks to the heart and the rest is manmade superstition....

[cinepro]

I was reading an online news story about James Dee Harmston (the leader of The True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of The Last Days), who died of a heart attack on June 27th, 2013, and I was struck by this comment about an ex member.

 

.http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56525075-78/church-harmston-tlc-christ.html.csp

 

Isn't God in control of coincidences like this?

 

If these people, "with their superstitions," will be likely to "believe even more" that this "James Dee Harmston" was a prophet, because he died on the same day Joseph did, why did God arrange things this way?

 

Maybe I tend to be "superstitious" myself, but I tend to see things in coincidences like this.

 

If God doesn't intend us to, why does He cause (or allow) them?

 

I'd appreciate any thoughts on this (and any thoughts on how to define "superstitious.")

 

Thank you.

 

 

I don't know the answer to your question, but now it sort of weakens my faith in Joseph Smith because he didn't die on the same day that Christ probably did...  

 

So thanks for that.

 

But it strengthens my faith to realize that God was probably arranging it so Joseph could be born on Christmas day (which is obviously the true day of Christ's birth, else Joseph would have been born in the spring), but Lucy's agency allowed him to be born a little early.  But it's close enough that I think it's a sign...

Edited September 20, 2013 by cinepro

[Billy the Law]

In many respects, God is merely the personification of man's understandings of the causes behind coincidences. You will literally drive yourself crazy with questions like this. 

[Robert F. Smith]

I've been taught, not personally! by Elder Maxwell that God micromanages our lives and so he is in the details of our lives

 

http://ldsmag.com/ldsmag/articles/030604details.html

 

“The Lord does a good job of micromanagement through the Holy Spirit, doesn’t he!”

http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=138

 

I read what he wrote later as to that story about the lady that wanted to take her won life, I am in the dark about how involved God is or wants to be or how life should be  as per his design or not design or whatever

 

so, I dunno what to make of it! haha!  I guess though God wants to micromanage our lives but doesn't necessarily does so if we don't follow the spirit but i don't know what that means for non Mormons

Thank you for calling Sister Proctor's article to my attention.

I have no problem with Elder Maxwell's notions here to the effect that we can accept the influence of the Holy Spirit in our lives, but that is our decision, not His, and we have to do some pretty arduous things to make certain that we don't grieve that Holy Spirit.  This isn't only a matter for Mormons, but applies also to everyone -- based on the light which lighteth every man who cometh into the world.

 

Yes, "God is in the details" through his servants.  He knows the end from the beginning, but can only micromanage to the extent that we allow Him.  Even then, He does not want robotlike conformity, but the full expression of our individual personalities and spirits.

[Robert F. Smith]

So are you saying that James Dee Harmston didn't really die of natural causes?

 

If he or his followers arranged for him to die on June 27, wouldn't his death have to be a suicide or homocide?

 

If he died of a heart attack, on that date, wasn't it God who arranged it?

Studies on mortality show that people pretty much die when they want to.  Death does not come in fully random ways.  Instead, people will choose to let go after they reach a meaningful milestone (birthday, anniversary, victory, defeat, etc.).  I always think of the two great Founding Fathers, Jefferson & Adams, waiting until they reached the fiftieth July 4th before succumbing to death's call (http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/thomas-jefferson-and-john-adams-die).

 

I don't have a psychological report on the attitude of James Lee Harmston, nor a coroner's investigation report of his death, but it would not at all surprise me to find that he wanted to die on that particular day.  The intensity of his desire along with his own physical condition may have made that possible.

Edited September 20, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

I will let Robert Smith answer for himself but I will also point out a glaring misinterpretation of his answer.  I read his answer to mean that God does not micro-manage events.

Depends on what you or inquirer mean by "micromanage events."  I don't see Him waving a magic wand and uttering some word like "presto."  I see  Him working with his servants to achieve a planned condition which will enable all of us to return home to Him.  And that in the midst of utter chaos.  God is not the author of chaos.  We are.  He is not a control freak.  We have complete free will -- along with the consequences.

[Robert F. Smith]

.........................................   

The Muslims say "Whoever Allah guides none can send astray, and whoever Allah sends astray, none can guide."

 

Could they be right?

 

Their Holy Book says "And they deceived and God deceived, and God (is) the best (of) the deceivers." (Qur'an 3:54.)

Many people believe as the Muslims do that all is the will of Allah.   That is very fatalistic, but certainly in line with the Judeo-Christian-Muslim belief that God is the only free actor, and that we are fully contingent creations by Him.   That is the exact opposite of Mormon belief.

 

And even in the Bible, He does seem to sometimes cause (or allow) circumstances that mislead, as in 2 Kings 3 (starting in verse 16.)

..................................  

But the Bible (and, I believe, The Book of Mormon) also says that He cannot lie, and this is why I've sometimes asked whether there's some difference between lying and deception (and have started threads on that subject here.)

 

So why did God take Harmston on the same day that Joseph Smith Jr. died?

God didn't take Harmston out on a particular day.  It is quite likely that Harmston had an intense desire to die that day.  If he was in poor health, that would simply make it easier.

 

Is He telling his followers that he was a prophet, or does He want them to go on believing that even if it isn't true, or could there be some other reason I haven't seen or thought of?

Don't waste precious time worrying about it.

[Robert F. Smith]

I don't know the answer to your question, but now it sort of weakens my faith in Joseph Smith because he didn't die on the same day that Christ probably did...  

 

So thanks for that.

 

But it strengthens my faith to realize that God was probably arranging it so Joseph could be born on Christmas day (which is obviously the true day of Christ's birth, else Joseph would have been born in the spring), but Lucy's agency allowed him to be born a little early.  But it's close enough that I think it's a sign...

Actually Xmas day was originally set on Winter Solstice, but the Julian Calendar drifted (it wasn't precise enough), so the Gregorian Calendar replaced it.  However, in the process Dec 25 was no longer set on Winter Solstice, which is the shortest day of the year and the ancient pagan day of the birth of the Sun.  Roman Catholicism replaced the pagan birthday of the Sun-god with Christ's birth on that day so as to subsume the pagan religion.  They did the same thing with Passover/Easter.  Yet in both cases, paganism still infests those celebrations.

 

What many do not understand is that Xmas day was not actually the birthday of Jesus, who (as the Book of Mormon proves) was clearly born on 1 Tishri of the Jewish calendar in 5 B.C., which is Rosh HaShana (New Year's Day) in the Autumn.

[Glenn101]

There have been a number of men who have claimed to be JS's successor, eventually one of them is going to die on the same day. Doesn't make him the actual successor though.

In a room of 23 people, there is a 50/50 chance that two people will have the same birthday. It is simply a matter of math.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birthday_problem

 

My wife's father was born on February 14th, Valentine's Day. She had a child by her first husband who was also born on February 14th. Then she had a child by her second husband who was also born on February 14th. I don't know what religious significance to draw from those events. Maybe my wife is a reincarnation of Saint Valentine???

 

Glenn

[Robert F. Smith]

Everything has significance. we just don't see most of it. But superstition is applying significance fallaciously, which we excel at doing.

 

June 27th is one day out of each and every year. A religion maker was killed on that day. A religion maker died on that day many years later, with some connection to the previous religion maker. MMM occurred on 11 September. 9/11/2001 was a coincidence, but if Mormons had done the flying instead of Muslims there would be a connection. God isn't speaking through the dates of men. Too much fallacious content is bound up with our self-applied significance to dates. God speaks to the heart and the rest is manmade superstition....

With a little more oomph you could say it like Nietzsche, or Zarathustra.

[The Nehor]

I saw a dead raven earlier. Why would God allow this to happen if he didn't want me to believe that Odin was sending me some pretty bad news?

[Robert F. Smith]

I saw a dead raven earlier. Why would God allow this to happen if he didn't want me to believe that Odin was sending me some pretty bad news?

Exactly!!

I hope that the Beast is paying attention.

[JLHPROF]

365 to one seem like pretty long odds to me.

 

 

If you had some historical significance relevant to his religious claims, maybe it would.

 

 

What kind of evidence?

 

Joseph Smith Jr. started the restoration movement, and he died on June 27th.

 

Harmston claimed to be his rightful successor (and/or reincarnation), and died on the same day.

 

If he died of natural causes, he couldn't have arranged this, but if there is a God in control of life and death He presumably did.

 

If the ex member quoted in the OP is right, Harmston's followers will be more inclined to believe his claims because of this "coincidence."

 

Is this "evidence" of a connection?

 

Is it evidence that the God in control of life and death is telling these people that Harmston was a prophet (like Joseph, who also died on June 27th)?

 

And if he wasn't a prophet, and these people really are more inclined to believe he was because of this "coincidence," why does He allow coincidences that further misconceptions, and reinforce false beliefs?

 

The Muslims say "Whoever Allah guides none can send astray, and whoever Allah sends astray, none can guide."

 

Could they be right?

 

Their Holy Book says "And they deceived and God deceived, and God (is) the best (of) the deceivers." (Qur'an 3:54.)

 

And even in the Bible, He does seem to sometimes cause (or allow) circumstances that mislead, as in 2 Kings 3 (starting in verse 16.)

 

 

But the Bible (and, I believe, The Book of Mormon) also says that He cannot lie, and this is why I've sometimes asked whether there's some difference between lying and deception (and have started threads on that subject here.)

 

So why did God take Harmston on the same day that Joseph Smith Jr. died?

Is He telling his followers that he was a prophet, or does He want them to go on believing that even if it isn't true, or could there be some other reason I haven't seen or thought of?

 

The same reason that God allowed John C. Bennett to start preaching "spiritual wives" at the same time the Lord introduced polygamy to the Church.  The same reason that the Spaulding Manuscript was written around the time the Book of Mormon was published.

The same reason that Joseph Smith learned masonry around the same time as restoring the endowment.

 

God wants to see if we can recognize his real hand from the false pretenders.  He wants to test our spiritual reasoning and understanding in addition to our faith to ask him.  And Jim Harmston was as classic an example of a modern John C. Bennett as you will ever see.  He mixed his own false doctrines with the fundamentalist teachings that originated with Joseph & Brigham and fooled those who didn't have an understanding of correct principles.

Simply put, he died when he did not because he was a true prophet, but to see if people would fall for it because they lack understanding or the faith to ask.

[mfbukowski]

So. I've stopped trying to answer questions about when and where God is or isn't acting. I just don't always know. But I also reject the idea that when something good happens, it's God and when something bad happens, it's an abuse of agency. It strikes me as self-serving and simplistic.

As always, it's in our interpretations I think.  God can guide our interpretations, I think, because everything is interpretation.

 

Of course we can also choose not to listen to that guidance, or not hear it.  Anything more or less would be to interfere with our agency.