Russell Nelson

[Damien the Leper]

A friend of mine stated that he has observed Russell Nelson being on an anti-science kick of late? Am I missing something or is his observation off? I'm just curious.

[Deborah]

Not knowing to what he was referring I'd say he is off.

[Calm]

Science in general, I highly doubt it. He was a highly skilled MD after all.

I believe he believes in some of the more literal interpretations of creation, but that is but a small part of science.

[David T]

He is the last Apostle to be on record mocking ideas of evolution and the big bang.

[Calm]

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/thanks-be-to-god?lang=eng

See "big bang" reference.

[Damien the Leper]

Hmmm....thanks for the replies. I'll have to ask my friend for some specifics then because I'm confused by his comment.

[thesometimesaint]

The Big Bang and Evolution are only the processes by which God created everything.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Elder Nelson's statements on the Big Bang and evolution show he understands neither.

[Calm]

He got his MD in 47 and appears to have been on the cutting edge of his field so a brilliant scientist in his area:

"A native of Salt Lake City, Utah, Nelson studied at LDS Business College while in his mid-teens and then worked as an assistant secretary at a bank.[2] He attended the University of Utah, earning a B.A. in 1945 and an M.D. in 1947.[3] Shortly thereafter, he began working with the team of doctors which created the first heart-lung machine. In 1951, the machine was used in the first open-heart operation on a human being. Four years later, Nelson was the first doctor in Utah to perform successful open-heart surgery using a heart-lung machine.

Nelson served a two-year term of medical duty in the U.S. Army during the Korean War, being stationed in Korea, Japan, and at Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, D.C. He served his residency in surgery at Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston and at the University of Minnesota, receiving a PhD in 1954.[3]

Nelson returned to Salt Lake City in 1955 and was initially on the academic staff of the College of Medicine at the University of Utah, where in November of that year he performed the first cardiac operation in Utah utilizing cardiopulmonary bypass. That operation was performed at the Salt Lake General Hospital (SLGH) on an adult with an atrial septal defect.

In March 1956, Nelson performed the first successful pediatric cardiac operation at the SLGH, a total repair of tetralogy of Fallot in a four-year-old girl. In 1959, he joined the staff of the Salt Lake Clinic, became associated with LDS Hospital, and continued to make major contributions to the development of the thoracic specialty, both in the clinical sciences and as the second director of the residency program.

Nelson's surgical volume was sufficiently large that it was a critical component of the residents' experience. He was an innovative and facile surgeon responsible for many improvements in cardiac operations. He also established a research laboratory at LDS Hospital.

By the late 1960s, Nelson's experience with artificial aortic valve implantation was such that he was able to report a large series of patients with an exceptionally low operative mortality.

In a unique combination of spiritual and professional obligations, Nelson performed heart surgery on LDS Church president Spencer W. Kimball.

In 1985, Nelson along with his colleague Dr. Conrad B. Jensen performed a quadruple bypass surgery on the famous Chinese opera star Fang Rongxiang.[4][5]"

Edited September 14, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

Reading the wiki history of the BB, it looks like while Nelson was in school, the steady state theories were considered more likely and the BB was just getting going, gaining its name in 49.

[Calm]

Elder Nelson's statements on the Big Bang and evolution show he understands neither.

It is possible he hasn't studied it much since college days, if so his view would be a limited one.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

I didn't say he wasn't brilliant. Just that he doesn't appear to understand evolution.

[thesometimesaint]

I remember when plate tectonics theory was still a revolutionary idea.

[Sevenbak]

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/thanks-be-to-god?lang=eng

See "big bang" reference.

This reference is even more direct.   I respect him a great deal and am glad he is so forthcoming with his language.

 

 

"Through the ages, some without scriptural understanding have tried to explain our existence by pretentious words such as ex nihilo (out of nothing). Others have deduced that, because of certain similarities between different forms of life, there has been an organic evolution from one form to another. Many of these have concluded that the universe began as a “big bang” that eventually resulted in the creation of our planet and life upon it.

 

To me, such theories are unbelievable! Could an explosion in a printing shop produce a dictionary? It is unthinkable! Even if it could be argued to be within a remote realm of possibility, such a dictionary could certainly not heal its own torn pages or renew its own worn corners or reproduce its own subsequent editions!

 

We are children of God, created by him and formed in his image. At least 55 verses of scripture attest to our divine creation. I have selected one to represent all the verses that convey the same conclusion:

“The Gods took counsel among themselves and said: Let us go down and form man in our image, after our likeness. …

 

“So the Gods went down to organize man in their own image, in the image of the Gods to form they him, male and female to form they them” (Abr. 4:26, 27).

 

http://www.lds.org/new-era/1987/10/the-magnificence-of-man?lang=eng

Edited September 14, 2013 by Sevenbak

[Calm]

I didn't say he wasn't brilliant. Just that he doesn't appear to understand evolution.

That was meant as a reply with info to the OP, not as criticism for anything anyone said.

[thesometimesaint]

This reference is even more direct.   I respect him a great deal and am glad he is so forthcoming with his language.

 

 

"Through the ages, some without scriptural understanding have tried to explain our existence by pretentious words such as ex nihilo (out of nothing). Others have deduced that, because of certain similarities between different forms of life, there has been an organic evolution from one form to another. Many of these have concluded that the universe began as a “big bang” that eventually resulted in the creation of our planet and life upon it.

 

To me, such theories are unbelievable! Could an explosion in a printing shop produce a dictionary? It is unthinkable! Even if it could be argued to be within a remote realm of possibility, such a dictionary could certainly not heal its own torn pages or renew its own worn corners or reproduce its own subsequent editions!

 

We are children of God, created by him and formed in his image. At least 55 verses of scripture attest to our divine creation. I have selected one to represent all the verses that convey the same conclusion:

“The Gods took counsel among themselves and said: Let us go down and form man in our image, after our likeness. …

 

“So the Gods went down to organize man in their own image, in the image of the Gods to form they him, male and female to form they them” (Abr. 4:26, 27).

 

http://www.lds.org/new-era/1987/10/the-magnificence-of-man?lang=eng

No scientist that I know claims that.

 

By what process did the Gods use when they formed men(Women)?

[Sevenbak]

No scientist that I know claims that.

 

By what process did the Gods use when they formed men(Women)?

I think God alone knows the process, but if I had to choose the wisdom of men or the testimony of an apostle who is also very learned in the ways and sciences of the world as a renowned heart surgeon, I would choose the latter.

 

His council here is even more direct.

 

 

"It is incumbent upon each informed and spiritually attuned person to help overcome such foolishness of men who would deny divine creation or think that man simply evolved. By the spirit we perceive the truer and more believable wisdom of God." - Russell M. Nelson, 1987

[strappinglad]

The vast majority of scientists readily admit that they have no idea how life began. Current discussions even present the idea that life came from Mars or perhaps some comet. Well, that is not too far off in my opinion. The delivery method is up for debate.

As far as Bro. Nelson's statements, I think that the more one is familiar with the complex intricacies of the human body ,the less one feels it all came about by random mutation over billions of years.

Edited September 14, 2013 by strappinglad

[David T]

I have read many of Elder Nelson's books, including his privately-published pre-Apostolic Autobiography (thanks interlibrary loan!). I have a former Mission companion born with a heart defect that was able to be managed due to a procedure pioneered by Russel Nelson. I do not doubt his testimony, his intelligence, or his devotion to God.

 

He has a very strong testimony of the human body's magnificence, and its place as a sacred host for a divine spirit. His reverence for the body comes across in many, many of his writings.

 

I have the impression that somewhere along the line, he encountered multiple expressions of individuals who denigrated or dissed the body, using aspects of evolutionary theory as their excuse and reason for it. It appears as though he took the insults (which opposed something he had a strong conviction was true), and married them to the general concepts of evolution, and the further cosmological Big Bang. He has shown no evidence that he is aware of the key general modern understanding of those principles. Either that, or he is intentionally creating straw men when he mocks and dismisses them. From what I've seen of his character, I tend to think it's the former rather than the latter.

 

When I hear his talks which dismiss or mock these concepts, I try to 'translate them' as being what I believe he is trying to convey - the human body is unique, sacred, and chosen by God to be joined with our Eternal Spirits. It's a Temple, and not a mistake, or a mess, or something to disrespect.

 

Some people use Evolution and the Big Bang to make those arguments he is opposing. But then again, I am aware of many others, including myself, who would also assent to the idea that the human body is unique, sacred, and chosen by God to be joined with our Eternal Spirits, that they are Temples, and not mistakes, a mess, or something to disrespect. But that this does not remove the possibility that these marvelous vessels were a masterful result of the beautiful (but, yes, messy) process of evolution, and the scattering and progressive and orderly gathering of 'matter unorganized' that spread out from the Big Bang.

 

In short, I'd agree with his message, just not the language and example he'd use to express it.

Edited September 14, 2013 by David T

[MormonMason]

I think God alone knows the process, but if I had to choose the wisdom of men or the testimony of an apostle who is also very learned in the ways and sciences of the world as a renowned heart surgeon, I would choose the latter.

 

His council here is even more direct.

 

 

"It is incumbent upon each informed and spiritually attuned person to help overcome such foolishness of men who would deny divine creation or think that man simply evolved. By the spirit we perceive the truer and more believable wisdom of God." - Russell M. Nelson, 1987

I think we evolved, but that this evolution process was directed where necessary by an intelligent entity, which in the same process also created many, varied forms of life in addition.  We know that creation was a process, for the Book of Abraham definitely states that all of this occurred as a process and that the Gods watched the creation unfold to see that they had been obeyed before proceeding to the next step.  That is hardly instantaneous and spontaneous creation.

 

When I have looked at the science in any great depth, I see patterns emerge and see that one thing could not have happened without something else happening before that thing.  If any one thing is left out of the equation, life as we know it could not have existed.  I see it as highly improbable that it all just happened by accident.  Well, there is that and the fact that I know there is a God. 

Edited September 14, 2013 by MormonMason

[Sevenbak]

"Matter unorganized" is the language used to describe the creation of the earth, but certainly not the "beautiful process of evolution" of life.

 

I still marvel that this is an issue for some.

 

E. Nelson is hardly alone, there have been many many more.  More recently, in 2002, the First Presidency issued a statement, along with a reprinting of former FP messages confronting evolution and darwinism.  I think this should be a must read for any thread on evolution.

 

I love LoVE LOVE the way they worded part of the introduction:

 

"Truth is what we wish to present, and truth—eternal truth—is fundamentally old. A restatement of the original attitude of the Church relative to this matter is all that will be attempted here. To tell the truth as God has revealed it, and commend it to the acceptance of those who need to conform their opinions thereto, is the sole purpose of this presentation."

 

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/02/the-origin-of-man?lang=eng

[cinepro]

He's also one of the last people to teach that Adam and Eve didn't have blood in their veins until the Fall.

 

That brings us to the Fall. Scripture teaches that “Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.”⁷ The Fall of Adam (and Eve) constituted the mortal creation and brought about the required changes in their bodies, including the circulation of blood and other modifications as well. 8  They were now able to have children.

 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1996/10/the-atonement?lang=eng

 

I can only imagine what he would think of all the "limited Garden" theories that posit animals and humanoids procreating, living and dying outside the Garden of Eden before, concurrent with, and after Adam and Eve's time there....

[Avatar4321]

He could not understand the theories. Or he could simply have a better understanding of how the world was created.

[Garden Girl]

I think we evolved, but that this evolution process was directed where necessary by an intelligent entity, which in the same process also created many, varied forms of life in addition.  We know that creation was a process, for the Book of Abraham definitely states that all of this occurred as a process and that the Gods watched the creation unfold to see that they had been obeyed before proceeding to the next step.  That is hardly instantaneous and spontaneous creation.

 

When I have looked at the science in any great depth, I see patterns emerge and see that one thing could not have happened without something else happening before that thing.  If any one thing is left out of the equation, life as we know it could not have existed.  I see it as highly improbable that it all just happened by accident.  Well, there is that and the fact that I know there is a God. 

Hello MM...

This is where I tend to lean... I've always read Abr 4 as being a description of a form of evolution... because of the way it describes the Gods ordering something and then sitting back and waiting until seeing they were obeyed, and then pronounced it good... and going on to the next phase...  while I think there was some adaptation and natural selection in this process, I don't believe in Darwinism per se... and Abr 4 states that the Gods prepared the earth to bring forth all of the living creatures after their kind.

We really do not understand the full and specific process... I do believe that scientists have been and are inspired to discover the "natural laws" that are the foundation of the creation such as the various laws of physics, plant sciences, entomology, etc., etc.  In D&C section 101:32-34 we are told that "in the day when the Lord shall come, he shall reveal all things-- things which have passed, and hidden things that no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof-- Things most precious, things that are above, and things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, and upon the earth, and in heaven.  That's a lot of knowledge and says to me that, again, we really do not know of certain just how the creative process unfolded... in spite of all the theories about evolution and the big bang... we shall see...

 

I also think there is a message in the Bible and PoGP where it tells of the creating/planting of a separate garden in the east of Eden, and there placing the man/woman they had created, i.e., the beginnings of us...  

 

GG

Edited September 14, 2013 by Garden Girl

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

A friend of mine stated that he has observed Russell Nelson being on an anti-science kick of late? Am I missing something or is his observation off? I'm just curious.

Russell Nelson is a Scientist as all Doctor of Medicine are.