Lucifer's Power And Priesthoods

[Maidservant]

This is a good question and I haven't taken an opportunity ever to think deeply on it.  The only thing I have ever really thought in connection to it, is that there is one straight and narrow way to Christ/Father, and broad and many are the roads away from that, "divers ways to sin" paraphrasing King Benjamin.

 

I think it's a valid point that Lucifer may just be lying or grandiose-delusional thinking, but if one takes the premise that there is some substance to it, it might help to start with defining priesthood.  We always say--the power and authority to act in the name of God.

 

So perhaps these are the covenants that Satan offers to those who might follow him.  And lest we think that these are reserved for only the most evil on the planet (a la Akish), these covenants may be things we constantly have to examine ourselves for--violence, idolatry, whoredom, etc.

 

I don't think that Satan has extra power by virtue of an office.  He has agency, or what's left of it, the same as the rest of us.  He has power over the elements--but so do we, everything we do in this life (cooking food, driving a car, flying airplanes, walking, making a play dough sculptures) is power over the elements.

 

 

Why did God want to protect Adam and Eve from Satan by telling them not to eat from the

forbidden tree in the Garden of Eden?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

I think our Father in heaven wanted them to think carefully about their choice to enter mortal, fallen life, because of the grave consequences even though there would also be the potential for great rewards.  We are still even now protected from Satan by our covenants with Christ.

 

And what of this general messing around with people's lives... Like with those cabinets opening and closing... What is the end game?

 

I don't think these things can be ascribed to Satan in the sense that Lucifer himself showed up to play with some cabinets.  I am positive that there are spirits of all kinds, in all conditions and they may or may not consciously be following Satan or they may just be lost, miserable, malicious spirits who would do what they do without recourse to overtly being the minions of Satan, per se.  Just like we rely on "holy Ghosts" from beyond the veil to help us be safe and help us find family history names .  We're all people with lives, making choices of what we do with our lives, whether we currently have bodies or not.

 

So why did God not want them to eat and not see the influence of Satan?

 

Thanks,

Jim

 

Our Father in heaven prepared this mortal life as an essential progression to become like Him.  In that sense, he does want us to participate.  But he wants us to do so on our own choice and not under his influence.  Our being presented with the influence of Satan is a major portion of our purpose here.  It's not for wimps! ha ha.

 

 

Every once in a while , but not consistently, the scriptures speak about knowing "good from evil" and knowing "good and evil."  I believe that God wants us to know "good from evil" while Satan wants us to know "good and evil" (with an emphasis on the evil).  The concept is taught even more clearly in the temple and I believe the language there is consistent. 

 

Yes.  Good from evil.  But I think I would understand it this way: here is the main image, although it is multiplied in myriad ways all through our lives:  Christ crucified.  Evil.  Christ risen.  Good.  Good from evil.

 

The suffering of Joseph Smith (and others with him) and the church they gave birth to.

 

The suffering of mothers and the babies born.

 

The lost boys of Sudan and their redemption.

 

a world where there is Satan-->charity and all that the Father hath

 

on and on and on and on . . . it's an advanced lesson and one that most people hardly get a glimpse of, much less realizing what is needed to be done with it.
 

[rongo]

 

I don't think these things can be ascribed to Satan in the sense that Lucifer himself showed up to play with some cabinets.  I am positive that there are spirits of all kinds, in all conditions and they may or may not consciously be following Satan or they may just be lost, miserable, malicious spirits who would do what they do without recourse to overtly being the minions of Satan, per se.  Just like we rely on "holy Ghosts" from beyond the veil to help us be safe and help us find family history names .  We're all people with lives, making choices of what we do with our lives, whether we currently have bodies or not.

 

 

I agree with this. Whether a direct action by Satan and/or followers doing his will, or not, it really happened. And, a command by the authority of the priesthood put an immediate and permanent stop to it.

 

I think that both God and the devil are often credited and blamed for things that weren't their fault or their doing. I think that sometimes when people die tragically and before their time, it's simply a temporal consequence of a fallen telestial world, and not a God-planned action. Not all tragic children's deaths are mission calls into the spirit world . . .

Edited August 31, 2013 by rongo

[telnetd]

Every once in a while , but not consistently, the scriptures speak about knowing "good from evil" and knowing "good and evil."  I believe that God wants us to know "good from evil" while Satan wants us to know "good and evil" (with an emphasis on the evil).  The concept is taught even more clearly in the temple and I believe the language there is consistent. 

 

Regarding what you said, it seems you also believe God really wanted

them to disobey Him and eat so they could fall and progress in

mortality.

 

I saw these two verses about "good and evil", but not 'good from evil".

 

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For

God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall

be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

  

"And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us,

to know good and evil".

 

What does "to know good and evil" mean as it applies to Heavenly

Father and Jesus? Did they attain this through their own act of

disobedience?

 

When Adam and Eve ate and knew "good and evil", how were they

gods like Father and Jesus?

 

Gail

[mfbukowski]

Every once in a while , but not consistently, the scriptures speak about knowing "good from evil" and knowing "good and evil."  I believe that God wants us to know "good from evil" while Satan wants us to know "good and evil" (with an emphasis on the evil).  The concept is taught even more clearly in the temple and I believe the language there is consistent. 

I think it's a distinction without a difference.  If you don't know evil, you don't know why it is evil.

 

The real choice according to the Didache is between life and death.  That is why death goes along with sin.  Sin kills us.

 

1:1 There are two ways, one of life and one of death! and there is a great difference between the two ways.

1:2 The way of life is this: First, you shall love God who made you. And second, love your neighbor as yourself, and do not do to another what you would not want done to you......

 

5:1 The way of death, on the other hand, is this: It is evil and accursed—murders, adulteries, lust, illicit sex, thefts, idolatries, magical arts, sorceries, robberies, false testimonies, hypocrisy,double-heartedness,deceit, haughtiness, depravity, self-will, greediness, filthy talking, jealousy, over-confidence, loftiness, boastfulness—those who do not fear God....

http://www.paracletepress.com/didache.html

[telnetd]

... it's simply a temporal consequence of a fallen telestial world, and not a God-planned action. Not all tragic children's deaths are mission calls into the spirit world

 

But didn't God design the plan in the time period known as the

first estate - a plan that would require Adam and Eve to fall and 

introduce mortality and procreation?  Remember the 'all the sons

of God shouted for joy' part when they heard about the plan? It

was not Lucifer nor Jesus who came up with it.

 

Gail

[mfbukowski]

When Adam and Eve ate and knew "good and evil", how were they

gods like Father and Jesus?

 

Gail

Read it again.

 

It say "AS" the Gods, knowing good and evil.

 

That's one attribute of godhood, not godhood.

[ksfisher]

I think it's a distinction without a difference.  If you don't know evil, you don't know why it is evil.

 

http://www.paracletepress.com/didache.html

I would beg to differ. I'm the father of four. I know the joy of creating life and watching it grow. I know that that is good.

On the other hand I have never killed anyone (murder as opposed to any justified type of killing). Even though I have never personally experienced this type of sin I know that it is evil.

[Calm]

I would beg to differ. I'm the father of four. I know the joy of creating life and watching it grow. I know that that is good.

On the other hand I have never killed anyone (murder as opposed to any justified type of killing). Even though I have never personally experienced this type of sin I know that it is evil.

There is a different quality of knowledge though...

 

I was well aware of death, suffering and pain and had studied the Holocaust and some other tragedies in my youth.  I knew about horrors...probably watched way too many crime shows because I like puzzles, but stayed away from horror....I don't understand people being entertained by evil winning....

 

And then one day about 20 years ago, one of my cub scouts' father had an axe taken to him in their home at night while the rest of the family was sleeping by a deranged patient he had refused to give drugs to.  Another friend volunteered to paint the house before the family came back to it so they could pack up and move.  He said the blood was as thick as if it had been painted on.  I can still only imagine (thank the Lord) what it must be like to waken to the screams of my father as he is being butchered by an psychopath, but I am much closer in knowing about it than I was when I got my knowledge for a book rather than the faces of those who had seen the aftermath.

Edited August 31, 2013 by calmoriah

[DJBrown]

So why did God not want them to eat and not see the influence of Satan?

 

Thanks,

Jim

I believe God gave Adam and Eve the commandment not to eat of the fruit so He could create the conditions in which Adam and Eve chose to partake fully on their own as a function of their agency.

 

This life is dang tough.  I think God did not want to force, to any degree, His children to enter this life.  So to avoid anything even approaching using His influence to push Adam and Eve into a fallen world, He went the other direction and gave them a commandment against partaking of the fruit.  That way, it could never be claimed that God forced us into this fallen world with its temptations and evil.

 

I see this all in parallel with the atonement of Christ.  Just like Adam and Eve entered mortality purely of their own agency, the atonement of Christ had to be achieved independent of God's direct influence.  And that is why God withdrew His spirit from Christ while Christ hung on the cross.

 

Make sense?  That is my take, at least.

[mfbukowski]

I would beg to differ. I'm the father of four. I know the joy of creating life and watching it grow. I know that that is good.

On the other hand I have never killed anyone (murder as opposed to any justified type of killing). Even though I have never personally experienced this type of sin I know that it is evil.

I still haven't a clue what you are "differing" about.

 

I have kids - 4 so I beat you, I guess   and I also have never killed anyone.  Good for me, I guess.

 

But I still don't understand your point. 

Edited September 1, 2013 by mfbukowski

[rongo]

But didn't God design the plan in the time period known as the

first estate - a plan that would require Adam and Eve to fall and 

introduce mortality and procreation?  Remember the 'all the sons

of God shouted for joy' part when they heard about the plan? It

was not Lucifer nor Jesus who came up with it.

 

Gail

Yes.

 

I'm not clear on what the above has to do with my statement that you quoted:

 

it's simply a temporal consequence of a fallen telestial world, and not a God-planned action. Not all tragic children's deaths are mission calls into the spirit world

 

That God's plan was formed before the world was doesn't mean that every death, every tragedy, every happy outcome or coincidence was directly planned.

[ksfisher]

I still haven't a clue what you are "differing" about.

 

I have kids - 4 so I beat you, I guess   and I also have never killed anyone.  Good for me, I guess.

 

But I still don't understand your point.

I guess the difference I see is that satan wants us partake of evil, to personally experience it. To be evil. Eat, drink, and be merry and all that. Satan would have us believe that we need to try something to know if we like it or not.

God, on the other hand, wants us to clearly see what is good and what is evil and then not partake of the evil.

Perhaps the distinction exists only in my mind, but it's been very instructive to me as I've sat in the temple and watched the drama unfold between God, Adam and Eve, and Satan; the motivation behind their actions; and how Satan lies to each of us.

[Calm]

This life is dang tough.  I think God did not want to force, to any degree, His children to enter this life.  So to avoid anything even approaching using His influence to push Adam and Eve into a fallen world, He went the other direction and gave them a commandment against partaking of the fruit.  That way, it could never be claimed that God forced us into this fallen world with its temptations and evil.

We have seen how Laman and Lemuel and others reacted when Lehi and Nephi and Ishamael and their wives attempted to save the lives of their families and take them to a new Promised Land where they would be safe if they lived in the Covenant.  But all Laman and Lemuel saw and all that they taught to their children was that they have been forced and ruled over by Nephi who was crazy, there was no appreciation of the fact he was suffering beside them...suffering because of them even more.  

 

God had to make it completely clear that it was man's choice, not his to come to mortality even though that is what he wanted them to do...and even now people are trying to avoid accepting that personal responsibility by rewriting the story.  But when confronted with the reality of our choice in the next life when the veil is removed, such excuses with be the empty, impotent words they always were, just couldn't be seen by those spiritually blinded.

[Bikeemikey]

Satan only has power of us as far as we give that power to him. He had no power of Christ because Christ did not give in to his temptations. When we give in, when we sin or transgress the laws that God has given us, to protect us from Satan, we give Satan power.

I agree with that - it is however the same for God, Christ and all power. All power is exercised over us only when we allow it.

[WmLaw]

Why shouldn't Satan have some power over matter? We know he was once a member of the higher councils of heaven. In those, he would have learned how to create things (worlds, etc) by manipulating matter in some form. Knowledge of how to manipulate matter as a spirit seems like a very strong possibility.

So this gets back to my question, if he has power over matter - is it power that he has been given? Or is it power, based in knowledge - knowledge of science and/or the laws of nature?

Does he really control the waters?

Can he open and close cabinets, etc. without the benefit of a physical body?

[Bikeemikey]

So this gets back to my question, if he has power over matter - is it power that he has been given? Or is it power, based in knowledge - knowledge of science and/or the laws of nature?

Does he really control the waters?

Can he open and close cabinets, etc. without the benefit of a physical body?

Power is based on knowledge and obedience to that knowledge. It is also incremental. You do not need all knowledge to have any power.

As such there is no issue with satan having substantial power and knowledge over all sorts of things.

Power does not come from god directly. Rather god gives us knowledge and an added capacity for obedience to that knowledge.

As such god provides power to us indirectly.

[longview]

I believe God gave Adam and Eve the commandment not to eat of the fruit so He could create the conditions in which Adam and Eve chose to partake fully on their own as a function of their agency.

 

This life is dang tough.  I think God did not want to force, to any degree, His children to enter this life.  So to avoid anything even approaching using His influence to push Adam and Eve into a fallen world, He went the other direction and gave them a commandment against partaking of the fruit.  That way, it could never be claimed that God forced us into this fallen world with its temptations and evil.

 

I see this all in parallel with the atonement of Christ.  Just like Adam and Eve entered mortality purely of their own agency, the atonement of Christ had to be achieved independent of God's direct influence.  And that is why God withdrew His spirit from Christ while Christ hung on the cross.

 

Make sense?  That is my take, at least.

 

I strongly agree with this perspective.  God is "accountable" to the hosts (which include the vast assembly of intelligences [pre-first-estate], spirits, resurrected beings, grandfather Gods, all creatures non-human, etc).  The Priesthood which contains governing principles, creative templates, offices, and various regulations for various kingdoms, etc requires strict adherence to "perfect" justice with "mercy" carefully applied where permitted.

 

• Alma 42:22

  22 But there is a law given, and a punishment affixed, and a repentance granted; which repentance, mercy claimeth; otherwise, justice claimeth the creature and executeth the law, and the law inflicteth the punishment; if not so, the works of justice would be destroyed, and God would cease to be God.

• God would NOT have proceeded with the Plan of Redemption without a "voluntary" Savior to atone for the huge list of violations of that "perfect" justice.  Because God's foreknowledge assured Him that the Lamb of God would fulfill all the requirements, God went ahead and presented the Plan to His spirit children.  Lucifer, even if he had been the only volunteer, would not have been accepted because his way would have destroyed free agency, contrary to Priesthood requirements.  There were probably several points at which we were informed and given the choice for proceeding to the next step.  In the first estate, we made our choices with full knowledge.  In the second estate (earthly mortality) with the "veil of forgetfulness" over our minds, we are again presented with choices, some we have already agreed to previously and some that are new.

[theplains]

a. I believe God gave Adam and Eve the commandment not to eat of the fruit so He could create the conditions in which Adam and Eve chose to partake fully on their own as a function of their agency.

 

b. This life is dang tough.  I think God did not want to force, to any degree, His children to enter this life.  So to avoid anything even approaching using His influence to push Adam and Eve into a fallen world, He went the other direction and gave them a commandment against partaking of the fruit.  That way, it could never be claimed that God forced us into this fallen world with its temptations and evil.

 

Make sense?  That is my take, at least.

 

a. Do you believe the plants and animals could procreate at God's command to them?

 

b. Makes sense to a degree.  According to what I have read of LDS theology, I see that they

were indirectly forced by God because that is what his plan entailed. As long as they obeyed

God, they were thwarting the plan of progression.  They knew, in the premortal existence, that

they had to disobey God to get things started, and 'all the sons of God shouted for joy at

Heavenly Father's proposed plan. I suspect they were really hoping to remember to disobey

God in the Garden of Eden (as they lost their memories when being formed on earth).  Had

they remained in obedience mode, the devil would be celebrating because the Father's plan

was suspended. Or maybe he was miserable because he did not have more people to deceive

because no sons or daughters were being born to Adam.

 

Thanks,

Jim

[Bikeemikey]

Would the consequences of eating the fruit been any different if God had not told them to?

Is there choice in the absence of commandments?

[Deborah]

Would the consequences of eating the fruit been any different if God had not told them to? Is there choice in the absence of commandments?

 

I think God wanted to make sure they had a choice and part of the effect of tree of knowledge of good and evil was making the choice in the first place.

[Bikeemikey]

I think God wanted to make sure they had a choice and part of the effect of tree of knowledge of good and evil was making the choice in the first place.

This still seems to suggest that the "thou shalt not eat" commandment was the origin of choice.

I'm pretty sure we had choice prior to that. At most the commandment was simply letting Adam and Eve know what choice god wanted us to make.

[mfbukowski]

So this gets back to my question, if he has power over matter - is it power that he has been given? Or is it power, based in knowledge - knowledge of science and/or the laws of nature?

Does he really control the waters?

Can he open and close cabinets, etc. without the benefit of a physical body?

He can if you think he can.

[DarkScythe]

As for Satan's power, It comes from Knowledge. And All forms of knowledge with action will develop power. Less we forget that Satan was an Archangel at one point. The Difference between Natural power(coming from oneself thru knowledge and action) and Priesthood is that The Priesthood's power come from God himself. 

 

 

I do believe Satan is quite powerful in and of himself and it is all natural. Of course God does trump Satan. I do think there is a potential Lecture on natural power and how it created but it can't overpower God.

[Buzzard]

When you consider the validity of his other claim-that he is the God of our entire world-I am led to believe that his claim to priesthood is self-delusion. Just because he says so doesn't make it so. 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

From whence does Lucifer derive his powers?

Are these granted to him by God, in order to provide opposition to His plan?

Or is there a dark side of the Priesthood, that he has access to by the nature of his fallen state?

Satan has no Priesthood, he is lying while trying to make himself a god. In fact Satan has power at all, he just whispers in the ear of make seeking to preside.

In fact the Prophet Joseph Smith made this remark...

"Satan as no Power over except that which we give him."

You can see that Satan has no If those he encounters, So if personal righteousness is what binds Satan during the Reign of Christ...what are we all thinking. I say bind him now.?

Edited September 4, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee