Calm Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 In fact the Prophet Joseph Smith made this remark..."Satan as no Power over except that which we give him."I have always thought that if Satan or whatever actually had some decent power (of a physical, rather than persuasive nature), he'd be doing a lot more than rattling some cupboard door.
MorningStar Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 Satan is a narcissist. He thinks he's so awesome even though he has no experience to prove it. This is the guy who thought he could be better than Heavenly Father.
WmLaw Posted September 4, 2013 Author Posted September 4, 2013 He can if you think he can.What is the law of nature behind that?
rongo Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 I have always thought that if Satan or whatever actually had some decent power (of a physical, rather than persuasive nature), he'd be doing a lot more than rattling some cupboard door.Joseph's suffocating darkness was physical, I think, and not just psychological. Ditto Moses' experience with Satan's scream shaking the earth. As I've said, I think that Satan uses different tactics at different times/eras. I don't think the "fear factor" of rattling cupboards is the same today as it was long ago, and I think that he got "more bang for the buck" with demonic possessions in New Testament times than in our day (where such things would drive some to acknowledge and seek things he doesn't want them to ---- "I am no devil, for there is none," etc.). Then again, the proliferation and normalization of mental illness in our day may not be that far different from maladies described in the New Testament.
mfbukowski Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 What is the law of nature behind that?Well if you are being cryptic, then I shall be as well. The law of nature behind that is that we can only know what we can know. If it's not in your head somewhere, where is it? Intimidation only works if you are intimidated.
Garden Girl Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 I've heard anecdotal evidence of Satan thwarting members efforts to go the temple (related during F&T meetings and such). Do you think this is real? I imagine it is exaggerated. My guess is someone with a real experience shared it and then many others copycat it and attribute things like car breakdowns to the devil to add drama to their lives. I'm one that experienced what I believe to be the Adversary's effort to thwart or ruin my going to the temple to receive my endowment...It was the morning I was to go to the temple for the first time... I had finished getting ready and was going out to put my things in the car...as I walked down the hallway toward the door leading to the garage, I glanced into the kitchen and there sat my dear non-LDS husband at the kitchen table with a scowl on his face that was so dark it stopped me... it was so unlike him. I went over to him and asked if something was the matter... (I had been a reactivated member for a year, and my husband had fully supported me in this process, including approving of my going to the temple). He looked at me at said,.. You aren't getting mixed up in this 10% business are you? ... I replied that I paid my tithing on my pension only and had been since reactivating. He pounded his fist on the table and shouted... No!...I was astounded... we proceeded to have a huge argument... It was getting late and I had to leave if I was going to be on time... so I told him that we'd have to discuss this later, but that I intended to continue to tithe on my pension... the one I worked 30 years full time for, and as far as I was concerned that was non-negotiable. I left the house in tears with a lump in my stomach as we just didn't argue like that, and the small amount that I tithed was really nothing in the context of our total income. So it wasn't the money... During the day as I received the blessings and made covenants, my heart was heavy because I dreaded what awaited me when I got home... when I did get home, my husband said nothing about tithing... nor ever again... and I continued simply to tithe each month... and he continued to fully support me in so many ways in my callings, etc. And welcomed the sister missionaries into our home for dinners... made a special video of our area and their apartment to send home to their folks. I am baffled still by that day and I'll never forget that look on his face, and the argument that followed... so unlike him... GG
mfbukowski Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 I have always thought that if Satan or whatever actually had some decent power (of a physical, rather than persuasive nature), he'd be doing a lot more than rattling some cupboard door.And if you have ever lived with a sleepwalker, you find that all kinds of "miracles" happen. Random tele-transportation of objects from one location to some bizarre place happen all the time.
mfbukowski Posted September 4, 2013 Posted September 4, 2013 Who has more power, God or Satan? And yet we learn that we are the "arms and hands" of Christ. If that is true, who are the arms and hands of Satan? If God doesn't rattle cabinet doors how does Satan? Just trying to follow the logic here and keep the story consistent. Doncha hate it when someone dreams up some new world and makes a movie but it doesn't follow its own rules?
WmLaw Posted September 5, 2013 Author Posted September 5, 2013 Well if you are being cryptic, then I shall be as well. The law of nature behind that is that we can only know what we can know. If it's not in your head somewhere, where is it? Intimidation only works if you are intimidated.I wasn't trying to be cryptic. I was wondering if you meant that believing in Lucifer's power actually gives him the ability to move objects and/or control the waters, etc. (sort of the mustard seed - faith - move mountains, type of thing) Or were you referring to psychological - all in your head - types of manifestations.
Alan Posted September 5, 2013 Posted September 5, 2013 One third of the hosts of heaven followed Lucifer and alligned themselves with him and his activities. There is a source of power there. If one third of the worlds population united in a particular cause or project it would be quite a powerful movement. I believe Lucifer still believes he can win the war and dethrone God by getting a majority to follow him. He believes it's a numbers game.
ksfisher Posted September 5, 2013 Posted September 5, 2013 I think it's a distinction without a difference. If you don't know evil, you don't know why it is evil. The real choice according to the Didache is between life and death. That is why death goes along with sin. Sin kills us. http://www.paracletepress.com/didache.htmlI just found this quote in Blake Ostler's "Fire on the Horizon." Page 110 in my e-version: "Satan's lie is not easy to detect. It is true that by eating the forbidden fruit Adam and Eve shall be as the gods. It is true that despite mortal death, they shall live. However, it is not true that they need to know both good and evil to be as the gods. What they need to learn is not how to do evil as well as good, but how to distinguish good from evil. As Lehi stated, 'they have become free forever, knowing good from evil.' (2 Nephi 2:26)" I think that explains what I meant better than I did. 1
mfbukowski Posted September 6, 2013 Posted September 6, 2013 I wasn't trying to be cryptic. I was wondering if you meant that believing in Lucifer's power actually gives him the ability to move objects and/or control the waters, etc. (sort of the mustard seed - faith - move mountains, type of thing) Or were you referring to psychological - all in your head - types of manifestations.All manifestations of anything are in somebody's head- that's the point. We only know what is in ours- or somebody's- head. You can never get out of that to "reality"
mfbukowski Posted September 6, 2013 Posted September 6, 2013 (edited) I just found this quote in Blake Ostler's "Fire on the Horizon." Page 110 in my e-version: "Satan's lie is not easy to detect. It is true that by eating the forbidden fruit Adam and Eve shall be as the gods. It is true that despite mortal death, they shall live. However, it is not true that they need to know both good and evil to be as the gods. What they need to learn is not how to do evil as well as good, but how to distinguish good from evil. As Lehi stated, 'they have become free forever, knowing good from evil.' (2 Nephi 2:26)" I think that explains what I meant better than I did.Ok. But I never suggested that anyone do evil, so I don't know how this applies. Unless you are saying that some people are not sinners, which of course I do not believe. I still don't see the difference and for the record I am not a super fan of Ostler typically. he has some great ideas but sometimes they seem kind of muddled togeher and perhaps this is an example of that. Surely since we are all sinners, we all "know evil" to some extent from personal experience. Of course we do not have to kill people to know what evil is- I don't know where you got that idea that I was saying that. Clearly if you know good from evil, you know evil. It is the opposite of good. Edited September 6, 2013 by mfbukowski
ERMD Posted September 14, 2013 Posted September 14, 2013 I'm trying to tie this all in with what happened to Joseph as he was praying in the grove.
mfbukowski Posted September 14, 2013 Posted September 14, 2013 (edited) I'm trying to tie this all in with what happened to Joseph as he was praying in the grove.It was a real manifestation. None of us can get out of the trap. On the other hand, there is no trap to get out of. Maybe this will help to make my point. http://xkcd.com/876/ Edited September 14, 2013 by mfbukowski
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