WmLaw Posted August 30, 2013 Posted August 30, 2013 From whence does Lucifer derive his powers? Are these granted to him by God, in order to provide opposition to His plan? Or is there a dark side of the Priesthood, that he has access to by the nature of his fallen state?
The Nehor Posted August 30, 2013 Posted August 30, 2013 From whence does Lucifer derive his powers? Are these granted to him by God, in order to provide opposition to His plan? Or is there a dark side of the Priesthood, that he has access to by the nature of his fallen state?He gets his power through knowledge, pretty much all of it gained before he fell.God does not give him power though his power is wielded at the sufferance of God who could intervene at any time.The Priesthood does not have a darkside. If it did we would see a lot more "Priesthood Sorcerors".
cinepro Posted August 30, 2013 Posted August 30, 2013 From whence does Lucifer derive his powers? Are these granted to him by God, in order to provide opposition to His plan? Or is there a dark side of the Priesthood, that he has access to by the nature of his fallen state? It's all midichlorians. 2
ksfisher Posted August 30, 2013 Posted August 30, 2013 Satan only has power of us as far as we give that power to him. He had no power of Christ because Christ did not give in to his temptations. When we give in, when we sin or transgress the laws that God has given us, to protect us from Satan, we give Satan power. 2
mfbukowski Posted August 30, 2013 Posted August 30, 2013 Satan only has power of us as far as we give that power to him. He had no power of Christ because Christ did not give in to his temptations. When we give in, when we sin or transgress the laws that God has given us, to protect us from Satan, we give Satan power.Makes sense to me. We often think of "power" the way we think of electricity- so many volts, amps etc- we plug in, and we have "power". It "comes from somewhere" like a generating station, the sun, windmills, etc. On the other hand we have psychological influence which gives one the ability to manipulate others- not because we have something to plug into- but because we understand human psychology and how to lie effectively and manipulate others. I think that is the kind of "power" Satan has- the ability to manipulate and convince, better than any other being in the universe. It's not that anyone "gave" him that power- it is just the way he uses his own agency and intelligence, and the scriptures tell us that his intelligence is considerable, since he was a "son of the morning"- right up there with the savior before he fell. 3
theplains Posted August 30, 2013 Posted August 30, 2013 When we give in, when we sin or transgress the laws that God has given us, to protect us from Satan, we give Satan power. Why did God want to protect Adam and Eve from Satan by telling them not to eat from theforbidden tree in the Garden of Eden? Thanks,Jim
WmLaw Posted August 30, 2013 Author Posted August 30, 2013 Makes sense to me. We often think of "power" the way we think of electricity- so many volts, amps etc- we plug in, and we have "power". It "comes from somewhere" like a generating station, the sun, windmills, etc. On the other hand we have psychological influence which gives one the ability to manipulate others- not because we have something to plug into- but because we understand human psychology and how to lie effectively and manipulate others. I think that is the kind of "power" Satan has- the ability to manipulate and convince, better than any other being in the universe. It's not that anyone "gave" him that power- it is just the way he uses his own agency and intelligence, and the scriptures tell us that his intelligence is considerable, since he was a "son of the morning"- right up there with the savior before he fell. So you're saying his power is based in his intelligence - i.e. his ability to manipulate and persuade and lie? Does that mean you don't believe he has power to control physical things?
ksfisher Posted August 30, 2013 Posted August 30, 2013 Why did God want to protect Adam and Eve from Satan by telling them not to eat from theforbidden tree in the Garden of Eden? Thanks,JimEating of the fruit placed Adam and Eve in a world where they could see the influence of Satan. It placed them in a situation where they could know good from evil. God gave them commandments that, if followed, would protect them from Satan's power.
rongo Posted August 30, 2013 Posted August 30, 2013 So you're saying his power is based in his intelligence - i.e. his ability to manipulate and persuade and lie? Does that mean you don't believe he has power to control physical things? He does in certain circumstances (but not unlimited, in my view). Cf. Job's physical affliction, etc. My father and other missionaries were called by the mission president's wife in Hamburg in the late 1960s. Her husband (President Rees) was gone, and cabinets kept opening and shutting. The missionaries tied the cabinets shut, and the cords came undone and continued opening and shutting. Very, very scary, according to my father. President Rees arrived at that time, and rebuked the devil by the authority of the priesthood, and it stopped, permanently. Then, there's the thing in D&C about Satan controlling the waters.
WmLaw Posted August 31, 2013 Author Posted August 31, 2013 I've heard anecdotal evidence of Satan thwarting members efforts to go the temple (related during F&T meetings and such). Do you think this is real?
WmLaw Posted August 31, 2013 Author Posted August 31, 2013 He does in certain circumstances (but not unlimited, in my view). Cf. Job's physical affliction, etc.My father and other missionaries were called by the mission president's wife in Hamburg in the late 1960s. Her husband (President Rees) was gone, and cabinets kept opening and shutting. The missionaries tied the cabinets shut, and the cords came undone and continued opening and shutting. Very, very scary, according to my father. President Rees arrived at that time, and rebuked the devil by the authority of the priesthood, and it stopped, permanently.Then, there's the thing in D&C about Satan controlling the waters.And what of this general messing around with people's lives... Like with those cabinets opening and closing... What is the end game?
The Nehor Posted August 31, 2013 Posted August 31, 2013 And what of this general messing around with people's lives... Like with those cabinets opening and closing... What is the end game? Generate fear maybe? Glee at scaring someone? Or maybe it is a temper tantrum? I don't think the end game has been thought through. I've heard anecdotal evidence of Satan thwarting members efforts to go the temple (related during F&T meetings and such). Do you think this is real? I imagine it is exaggerated. My guess is someone with a real experience shared it and then many others copycat it and attribute things like car breakdowns to the devil to add drama to their lives. So you're saying his power is based in his intelligence - i.e. his ability to manipulate and persuade and lie? Does that mean you don't believe he has power to control physical things? He does but we have little knowledge of how or what limits this power has. I think a number of the experiences attributed to the devil have more to do with him messing with the person's mind through delusion and less to do with manipulating the physical world. The more usual attack I have seen is the spiritual attack similar to the one Joseph Smith experienced. Possession does happen but it is not "Exorcist" style where the person is suppressed. It is more a sharing of the mind and to a lesser degree the body. I have never seen this happen outside of an LDS person sinning or encouraging a devil in out of a twisted sense of curiosity.
rongo Posted August 31, 2013 Posted August 31, 2013 Generate fear maybe? Glee at scaring someone? I think this is exactly right. I asked my dad why there weren't as many possessions in our day as in the Savior's time, and he said that in his view, Satan focused more on scaring vulnerable people with displays of his power to strike fear into them. In our day, he doesn't want them to believe in a devil at all ("I am no devil, for there is none," etc.), mainly because if there is a devil, then there is a counter --- and he doesn't want anyone to be driven to Jesus, out of fear or otherwise. Which isn't to say that possessions don't still happen. I think the proliferation of mental illness and "chemical imbalances" people attribute increasingly prevalent modern symptoms to is akin to the New Testament era ills attributed to demons and possession. I think the devil is very intelligent, and he alters and tailors his attacks and approach to fit the times. I've heard anecdotal evidence of Satan thwarting members efforts to go the temple (related during F&T meetings and such). Do you think this is real? Like The Nehor said, I agree that this is greatly overblown in many (but not all) cases. We have physical bodies, and Satan and his angels do not, so we have tremendous power and advantages and cannot be thwarted if we are determined. I think things like "demonic" car trouble are possible, but not as dramatically so or embellished as in F&T meeting accounts. Ditto with "three Nephite" stories and the like.
theplains Posted August 31, 2013 Posted August 31, 2013 Eating of the fruit placed Adam and Eve in a world where they could see the influence of Satan. So why did God not want them to eat and not see the influence of Satan? Thanks,Jim
Deborah Posted August 31, 2013 Posted August 31, 2013 I think good and evil are found in the universe. God is God because he is good and eschews the evil and chooses the Laws of righteousness. Satan was evil because he sought power and glory for himself without considering the Law of Justice and Mercy or that most important principle of Agency. God allows Satan loose because he needs to let his children understand the choices that are involved and I personally think to remind of us the battle we once were part of. I think Lucifer's "Priesthoods" are in his own mind as an imitation of the true Priesthood power and authority. 2
Deborah Posted August 31, 2013 Posted August 31, 2013 Stephen King's The Stand is one of my favorite books. What is interesting to me, and an insight I think King had that is true, is that Flagg (Satan) had no power except what others gave him. He was a master of deception by convincing others he was their friend and by offering them a supposedly "better life". But as we see from this story when he is done with you he will not stand by you. 1
rameumptom Posted August 31, 2013 Posted August 31, 2013 Why shouldn't Satan have some power over matter? We know he was once a member of the higher councils of heaven. In those, he would have learned how to create things (worlds, etc) by manipulating matter in some form. Knowledge of how to manipulate matter as a spirit seems like a very strong possibility.
ksfisher Posted August 31, 2013 Posted August 31, 2013 So why did God not want them to eat and not see the influence of Satan? Thanks,JimGod did want Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit. He commanded them to be fruitful and multiply, which they couldn't do until they had partaken of the fruit. Not partaking of the fruit was a condition placed upon them if they wanted to remain in the garden. But, for our Father in Heavens plan to move forward Adam and Eve had to choose to leave the garden. This was done by partaking of the fruit. He also wants us to see what evil is. By seeing evil and being able to choose we are then able to freely choose to do good and to choose to return to God. Without the ability to choose both we are unable to choose either and would thus remain in a state of innocence forever (the garden). Our Father in Heavens plan hinged upon Adam and Eve freely choosing to leave the garden, enter a fallen world where they would be presented with both good and evil, and choosing the good. Knowing that mistakes would be made by all of us in our journey through life and only Christ would be without sin our Father in Heaven provided a Savior and a means for us to repent and return to Him. 1
CV75 Posted August 31, 2013 Posted August 31, 2013 (edited) From whence does Lucifer derive his powers?I would say only from the people that submit themselves to him -- that is why he has so many priesthoods. He has no real power but what people give him. The Lord has and needs only one priesthood because He has true power, given Him of the Father. Whatever powers over the elements the devil has have been given to him, and only for a relatively short while. They are certainly not eternal in nature, and nothing compared to the power of God. Of course part of our test is recognize true and eternal power from temporary power, including our own power that we reliquish to the devil. Edited August 31, 2013 by CV75 1
mfbukowski Posted August 31, 2013 Posted August 31, 2013 So you're saying his power is based in his intelligence - i.e. his ability to manipulate and persuade and lie? Does that mean you don't believe he has power to control physical things? Let's just say that I think the line between "mental things" and "physical things" doesn't exist. All perception of what is real comes through our minds, sometimes collectively and sometimes privately When two or more have the same perception, we call that "real" but then we also have what has been termed "mass hallucination" at which point the line breaks down to the point of non-existence. If a hundred people all saw a pink elephant or the sun spin, would it be "real", a "mass hallucination" or a "miracle"? It all depends on your point of view, in some cases it depends on what religion you are in.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_the_Sun The Miracle of the Sun (Portuguese: O Milagre do Sol) was an event on Saturday the 13th of October 1917 which was attended by 30,000 to 100,000 people, who were gathered near Fátima, Portugal. Several newspaper reporters were in attendance and they took testimony from many people who claimed to have witnessed extraordinary solar activity. This recorded testimony was later added to by an Italian Catholic priest and researcher in the 1940s.According to these reports, the event lasted approximately ten minutes.[1] The three children also reported seeing a panorama of visions, including those of Jesus, Our Lady of Sorrows, Our Lady of Mt. Carmel, and of Saint Joseph blessing the people.[2]The event was officially accepted as a miracle by the Roman Catholic Church on 13 October 1930. On 13 October 1951, the papal legate, Cardinal Tedeschini, told the million people gathered at Fátima that on 30 October, 31 October, 1 November, and 8 November 1950, Pope Pius XII himself witnessed the miracle of the sun from the Vatican gardens.[3]The people had gathered because three young shepherd children had predicted that at high noon the "lady" who had appeared to them several times would perform a great miracle in a field near Fátima called Cova da Iria. According to many witnesses, after a period of rain, the dark clouds broke and "the sun" appeared as an opaque, spinning disc in the sky.[4] It was said to be significantly duller than normal, and to cast multicolored lights across the landscape, the shadows on the landscape, the people, and the surrounding clouds.[4] The sun was then reported to have careened towards the earth in a zigzag pattern,[4] frightening those who thought it a sign of the end of the world.[5] Witnesses reported that their previously wet clothes became "suddenly and completely dry, as well as the wet and muddy ground that had been previously soaked because of the rain that had been falling".[6]Estimates of number present range from 30,000 to 40,000 by Avelino de Almeida, writing for the Portuguese newspaper O Século,[7] to 100,000, estimated by Dr. Joseph Garrett, professor of natural sciences at the University of Coimbra,[8] both of whom were present that day.[9]No, I am not saying that Satan caused it all. All I am saying is that there is a lot more to this world than any of us imagine.
mfbukowski Posted August 31, 2013 Posted August 31, 2013 Just to fill the blank, those who saw Joseph Smith's face superimposed over Brigham Young's face were in similar circumstances, and depending on your pov, some might take different positions. Just making sure I am remaining politically correct. 1
mfbukowski Posted August 31, 2013 Posted August 31, 2013 He also wants us to see what evil is. By seeing evil and being able to choose we are then able to freely choose to do good and to choose to return to God. Without the ability to choose both we are unable to choose either and would thus remain in a state of innocence forever (the garden).I have a new grandbaby who just happens to be the cutest kid alive today- just great genes I guess But she has no conception of evil of course, and the worst thing that has ever happened to her is getting a shot, or losing her pacifier. The phrase which I hate, "It's all good" (I hate it because clearly it's NOT 'all good") happens to be literally true for all young children, and they need to learn good from evil so they avoid it. We all fall, and we all learn good from evil by experience because none of us can remain "in the garden" forever. 2
USU78 Posted August 31, 2013 Posted August 31, 2013 I've heard anecdotal evidence of Satan thwarting members efforts to go the temple (related during F&T meetings and such). Do you think this is real? If you would like to read up on this, the History of the Logan Temple has a fair bit on it. Cache/Box Elder folks used to talk in code so nobody could know where they were getting ready to go to while they were getting ready to go in order to reduce the broken axle, lame horse type incidents. Reliable? Who knows?
ksfisher Posted August 31, 2013 Posted August 31, 2013 We all fall, and we all learn good from evil by experience because none of us can remain "in the garden" forever.Every once in a while , but not consistently, the scriptures speak about knowing "good from evil" and knowing "good and evil." I believe that God wants us to know "good from evil" while Satan wants us to know "good and evil" (with an emphasis on the evil). The concept is taught even more clearly in the temple and I believe the language there is consistent.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted August 31, 2013 Posted August 31, 2013 From whence does Lucifer derive his powers? Are these granted to him by God, in order to provide opposition to His plan? Or is there a dark side of the Priesthood, that he has access to by the nature of his fallen state?Since this line is from Satan in the endowment (and) since he is the father of all lies, I would not read anything into it.
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