Special Roundtable Discussion: Polygamy

[Damien the Leper]

14 +/- year old girls marrying and/or having sex with men twice their age screams of "daddy issues" and red flags fly. Personally, polygamy is a non-issue. If consenting adults wanna go with it then fine. Overall, polygamy is not, IMO, an overly relevant religious topic. I'm more interested iteriological, pneumatological and eschatological subjects. Polygamy doesn't really fall under any of those categories.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Valentinus

[Gohan]

It's important to note that Joseph was 38 at the time he married Helen. We keep hearing that it wasn't uncommon for 14 year old girls to marry at that time, but were they marrying men more than twice their age?

From my own family history research in North Carolina and Virginia around the same time period and earlier, no, it wasn't terribly unusual.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Gohan

[Tacenda]

From my own family history research in North Carolina and Virginia around the same time period and earlier, no, it wasn't terribly unusual.

So 14 yr. old young women and 38 yr. old men? I'd need to see a geneological record to believe it happened. ETA: I did read about a girl that married at 14 to a man twice her age on the Oregon trail. She felt subjugated (word they used) with the marriage. Not a happy day apparently. Edited August 17, 2013 by Tacenda

[JamesBYoung]

I was just watching Pride and Prejudice (the BBC version) and realized that Georgiana was going to elope at age 15 with Mr. Wickham and that Lydia actually married him while she was around 16.  He would be roughly 28.  So that link might be correct about the heroines, but Jane Austen did talk about women being married or contemplating marriage earlier than 17.

 

I have taught off and on, as tenured and adjunct faculty, for 37 years in universities and colleges and in dual-credit instruction, and have witnessed scores of young "women being married or contemplating marriage earlier than 17."  All of my sisters reassure me that young females begin thinking about marriage as a serious future issue by the eighth or ninth grade.

[JamesBYoung]

Below you will find some interesting evidence about the change of marriage ages in the USA.

 

"Americans are getting married later and later. The average age of first marriage in the United States is 27 for women and 29 for men, up from 23 for women and 26 for men in 1990 and 20 and 22 (!) in 1960."  http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/03/getting-married-later-is-great-for-college-educated-women/274040/

 

"Today, of course, most states have marriage laws that in 1976 allowed 16 year olds to be married without the consent of an adult; however, by 2003 48 states set the marriage age at 18, while Nebraska has it at 19 and Mississippi at 21. One interesting note comparing Utah to the US, in 1990 the average age of a first marriage in Utah was 21 for both men and women, while nationally the average age of a first marriage was 23.9 for women and 25.9 for men."  http://abandofchristians.blogspot.com/2009/07/frontier-marriages-how-old-were-you.html

[webbles]

It's important to note that Joseph was 38 at the time he married Helen. We keep hearing that it wasn't uncommon for 14 year old girls to marry at that time, but were they marrying men more than twice their age?

Edgar Allen Poe was 26 when he married his wife who was 13.  Not exactly "more than twice [her] age" but he is twice her age.

[Rivers]

You know the worst thing about multiple wives? 

Multiple mother-in-laws.

[omni]

You know the worst thing about multiple wives? 

Multiple mother-in-laws.

Think of all the arguments they must have had about which of the wives' families they were going to spend Christmas with.

[Calm]

You know the worst thing about multiple wives? 

Multiple mother-in-laws.

Not quite, it is multiple fathers-in-law....

 

The whole idea of eternal families is linking all of humanity into one....your in-laws are your spiritual siblings, why wouldn't you want as many of them as you could get...no family member left behind and all.

 

(I know you were just making a joke, mothers-in-law jokes are just a pet peeve of mine, for every horrible mother-in-law there is an equally horrible son or daughter in law out there....since most of us are mothers/daughters or fathers/sons and in-laws/blood tied all in one.)

[Rivers]

I actually got the joke from the movie Ephraim's Rescue. So when this topic came up, I couldn't help but telling it.

[Calm]

I forgave you anyway...just resist temptation if I am within arm's length from you. 

 

add-on:  having looked up the movie, I am now wondering if such a joke is an anachronism...if perhaps mother-in-law jokes are a modern cultural artifact of our modern family dynamics or if they are as old as marriage itself.

Edited August 18, 2013 by calmoriah

[why me]

So 14 yr. old young women and 38 yr. old men? I'd need to see a geneological record to believe it happened. ETA: I did read about a girl that married at 14 to a man twice her age on the Oregon trail. She felt subjugated (word they used) with the marriage. Not a happy day apparently.

There may be a difference. Joseph's plural wives were not exactly living with him. I believe that much of his marriages were for kinship but I could be wrong about this. I know of no plural wife of Joseph who spoke a negative word about him. Just the opposite.

 

One of the Prophet’s plural wives, having lived three years in his home, reflected late in her life, “I have known of his outgoings, and his incomings, his sorrows and joys, his troubles and afflictions in public and in private. He was one of the noblest of men and those who knew him best, loved him most.”¹⁴

 

And Emma's second husband said this about him:

 

Lewis Bidamon, the non-Mormon who married Emma Smith after the Prophet’s death, recalled that Joseph Smith’s “manners, movements and whole deportment made a deep and lasting impression upon me, and convinced me that he was not the imposter and wicked man he had been represented by his enemies to be; to me he appeared to be a good, honest and noble-hearted man, and from all I have ever learned about him since, I have not had occasion to

change my opinion about him.”¹¹

 

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/09/joseph-smiths-reputation?lang=eng

 

I am sure that if Joseph was a lusty horndog, he would have heard it from Emma. So, how can we interpret Joseph's polygamy?

Edited August 18, 2013 by why me

[ZelphtheGreat]

Well, this is true. However, after praying about it and that woman experiences a strong spiritual experience to confirm it, what is she to do? This is what happened to some of these women.

 

Self delusion happens so often in religion just as with the inebriated girl at the bar who goes home with the guy of the evening.

 

Plural marriage to raise seed? Permission of the first wife? Espouse a Virgin?

 

Joseph failed on all accounts, didn't he?

 

Easily explained tho, with the 'revelation' to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon which Joseph later claimed was a revelation from the Devil.

 

So was Polygamy a revelation from the Devil. After all, who is THE GOD OF THIS WORLD"?

[helaman38]

I know of no plural wife of Joseph who spoke a negative word about him. Just the opposite...I am sure that if Joseph was a lusty horndog, he would have heard it from Emma. So, how can we interpret Joseph's polygamy?

 

The Nauvoo Expositor is a good primer for what went on and why. Besides that, polygamy is forbidden in both the New Testament and the Book of Mormon and it was never tied to salvation as is laid out in DC 132.

 

In all things there must be two witnesses for a doctrine and you will be hard pressed to find a second witness for what is described in DC 132.

 

Think about this, do you really believe having more than one wife gets you favor with God? Why would God go to so much effort over so many years as to bring forth the Book of Mormon which prizes chastity and condemns polygamy to then turn around and contradict it by DC 132?

 

 5 Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father—that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them. (Jacob 3)

 

Joseph was repeatedly chastised for breaking God's commandments. It's because of him we don't have the first 116 pages of the Book of Mormon and it is also because of him we don't have any additional records as was promised. Whitmer said God purposely chose a person like that so it would be clear the Book of Mormon was from God and not a sinner like Joseph.

 

Whereas members fondly imagine a young, honest, naive Joseph, towards the end of his short life, he was overweight and flabby from rarely doing any physical work whatsoever. He regularly held parties, smoked cigars and had a well stocked bar in the Nauvoo House - all paid for by the money from church members.

 

William Law described how when he arrived in Nauvoo Joseph and Hyrum instructed him not to practice medicine but rather go into business and buy lots of land. So he followed there advice and did just that. William Law was highly respected as an honest man. He did run several businesses and conducted trade near and far. After Joseph got his money for the lands that Law bought, he turned right around and gave a proclamation that incoming saints could only buy from the church which left Law with a bunch of land he could not sell!!

 

And then when Law and others were going to expose the lies of Joseph's affairs, i.e. "polygamy, spiritual wifeism, celestial marriage, eternal marriage, foreordained marriages, etc." Joseph and Hyrum publicly denounced William and accused him all kinds of crimes which were blatant lies. Unfortunately for Hyrum and Joseph, Law had a backbone and the wherewith all to educate the public and so he did so. 

 

For me, it took a lot to let my mind go to that much darkness where perverts function, but that's where Joseph was. If it were a divine law, only one additional wife would have satisfied it, not more than 30 and certainly not to women already married and already able to have children! 

 

You will have to show minimal respect to church leaders you disagree with to post here.   You are out of the thread.

[boulder257]

There may be a difference. Joseph's plural wives were not exactly living with him. I believe that much of his marriages were for kinship but I could be wrong about this. I know of no plural wife of Joseph who spoke a negative word about him. Just the opposite.

 

One of the Prophet’s plural wives, having lived three years in his home, reflected late in her life, “I have known of his outgoings, and his incomings, his sorrows and joys, his troubles and afflictions in public and in private. He was one of the noblest of men and those who knew him best, loved him most.”¹⁴

 

And Emma's second husband said this about him:

 

Lewis Bidamon, the non-Mormon who married Emma Smith after the Prophet’s death, recalled that Joseph Smith’s “manners, movements and whole deportment made a deep and lasting impression upon me, and convinced me that he was not the imposter and wicked man he had been represented by his enemies to be; to me he appeared to be a good, honest and noble-hearted man, and from all I have ever learned about him since, I have not had occasion to

change my opinion about him.”¹¹

 

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1979/09/joseph-smiths-reputation?lang=eng

 

I am sure that if Joseph was a lusty horndog, he would have heard it from Emma. So, how can we interpret Joseph's polygamy?

 

Aren't these quotes compiled by the Church itself? I just want to understand where they are coming from. It's not meant to be a criticism by any means. For instance, I take the Vatican's word as gold on certain things, so I understand if you believe the Mormon church to be a quality source. I just want to know where these quotes come from and where they are stored. Thanks!

Edited August 28, 2013 by boulder257

[juliann]

I feel that I should address this complaint, which I expected.

 

I tried to recruit the best authorities on the subject, and, in fact, that's who these three are.

 

I was aware that it would be a problem if no women were involved.  There is a woman historian who has published an excellent book on later -- that is, Utah period -- plural marriage, and we approached her.  She was willing, but is out of the country until early September.  So, since we wanted to move forward with this, we decided to do it without her.  Perhaps she can be involved at a later time.

 

In the meanwhile, though, surely the discussion ought to be judged on its merits rather than on the basis of the anatomy of those participating in it.

 

I don't think we will ever break through the polygamy puzzle until scholarship begins to focus on the women's perspective rather than the men involved.  Mormon Enigma is the only book I have seen really do that other than Compton, at least in Emma's case.    So it isn't about just having a female there it is about treating the women as full participants rather than "JS's wives".    Has there even been such an attempt to compile every source on each woman,  other than Allen Wyatt's treatment of Zina's husbands?  Obviously,  there isn't as much information but there certainly is some and I am only finding it randomly, book by book as tidbits are thrown out about a "wife". 

 

I also find the overriding drive by some to exonerate the men involved by "proving" that women were only involved with one man at a time absolutely bizarre.   It becomes immediately apparent that evidence is being selectively used to prove that point rather than add to the body of knowledge we so badly need.   Case in point,  Hales using William Law's words as evidence for his own position on one page and dismissing him on the very next page when it didn't help his position.   I want to know what happened not set up some Victorian standard of virtue for the women only.   It is distracting in the extreme.

 

(And kudos to Greg Smith for his final comments,  what a great way to end the discussion).

Edited August 28, 2013 by juliann

[juliann]

Aren't these quotes compiled by the Church itself? I just want to understand where they are coming from. It's not meant to be a criticism by any means. For instance, I take the Vatican's word as gold on certain things, so I understand if you believe the Mormon church to be a quality source. I just want to know where these quotes come from and where they are stored. Thanks!

The quotes are referenced, click on the links highlighted in blue and you can see where they are coming from.   The church has a historical library but scholars do the compiling. 

[boulder257]

The quotes are referenced, click on the links highlighted in blue and you can see where they are coming from.   The church has a historical library but scholars do the compiling. 

 

10-4. Thanks.

[Tacenda]

I don't think we will ever break through the polygamy puzzle until scholarship begins to focus on the women's perspective rather than the men involved. Mormon Enigma is the only book I have seen really do that, at least in Emma's case. So it isn't about just having a female there it is about treating the women as full participants rather than "JS's wives". Has there even been such an attempt to compile every source on each woman, other than Allen Wyatt's treatment of Zina's husbands? Obviously, there isn't as much information but there certainly is some and I am only finding it randomly, book by book as tidbits are thrown out about a "wife".

I also find the overriding drive by some to exonerate the men involved by "proving" that women were only involved with one man at a time absolutely bizarre. It becomes immediately apparent that evidence is being selectively used to prove that point rather than add to the body of knowledge we so badly need. Case in point, Hales using William Law's words as evidence for his own position on one page and dismissing him on the very next page when it didn't help his position. I want to know what happened not set up some Victorian standard of virtue for the women only. It is distracting in the extreme.

(And kudos to Greg Smith for his final comments, what a great way to end the discussion).

I so agree. And think the polygamist wives should be studied almost as much as the presidents of the church. They had to have a lot of faith. And alot of times were left alone to fend for their families. We have hidden them from our lesson manuals so much that we as women usually only have men's examples to lean on. Historically and maybe some women in the not so distant past should be studied. Do our manuals teach much about women? Maybe I'm just forgetting about some lessons back in time. Surely we have women that led lives that can be studied in a class atmosphere somewhere in church. There is a big piece of the puzzle that is missing in the church.

[juliann]

There may be a difference. Joseph's plural wives were not exactly living with him. I believe that much of his marriages were for kinship but I could be wrong about this. I know of no plural wife of Joseph who spoke a negative word about him. Just the opposite.

 

 

There were always workers at the hotel and several of those became plural wives.   So they were living together,  just not openly.  Emma put a stop to several of these situations.

 

 

 

I am sure that if Joseph was a lusty horndog, he would have heard it from Emma. So, how can we interpret Joseph's polygamy?

 

He heard a lot from Emma and relations were very strained at times.   We have an odd Hollywood version of their marriage.   We also really discount Mr. Bidamen and their long term devoted marriage.   Their letters to each other are beautiful.