Special Roundtable Discussion: Polygamy

[Daniel Peterson]

Some will, I hope, find this helpful:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeterson/2013/08/special-roundtable-discussion-polygamy.html

[Tacenda]

Am I slow? I just barely listened to the Fairmormon Blog with Brian Hales and Greg Smith where they discuss that JS did have sex with a few of his polyandry wives. Why in this roundtable does Brian Hales show the slide that he was the only one that didn't believe JS had sex with any of the wives of other men? Did I misunderstand him?

[Calm]

Am I slow? I just barely listened to the Fairmormon Blog with Brian Hales and Greg Smith where they discuss that JS did have sex with a few of his polyandry wives. Why in this roundtable does Brian Hales show the slide that he was the only one that didn't believe JS had sex with any of the wives of other men? Did I misunderstand him?

Brian Hales believes, IIRC, that if these women engaged in sex with Joseph Smith that it was during time periods that they considered themselves not married to their other husbands. So while they had sex, in his view it was not a polyandrous relationship anymore than a woman who is divorced who remarries is one even if she later divorces the second husband and remarries the first.

[canard78]

I was involved, in another forum, in a conversation with someone who said Joseph was a pedophile.

To which I replied and asked them to prove it, provide some evidence. And also said that while I wasn't personally comfortable with the way plural marriage was practiced, that the accusation was completely unfounded.

They repeated their accusation suggesting I'd not done enough research. I replied that perhaps they would like to provide their evidence he had sex with children if they were so certain.

I'm still waiting to hear back from them. I'll expect a long wait. I wish other fora had a CFR function. It really helps to cut to the quick.

On this subject though. How does Hales prove which people had sex and that there was no parallel physical relationships? I suppose later journal entries, testimonies and children/no children?

Zina had a second child with Henry Jacobs after being married to Joseph. So presumably she was one of the women not having relations with Joseph?

[Calm]

On this subject though. How does Hales prove which people had sex and that there was no parallel physical relationships? I suppose later journal entries, testimonies and children/no children?

Zina had a second child with Henry Jacobs after being married to Joseph. So presumably she was one of the women not having relations with Joseph?

I have not read his stuff myself so I am only repeating...and it just so happened I just came across a comment by a friend who has clarified Hales' position for me (please allow me to correct in the future if I am wrong though )...

Apparently Hales believes that all allegedly polyandrous sealings were for eternity only save in one case and in that one case, it was as I related above, the legal marriage he claims was in abeyance. He presents evidence that the husband had abandoned the wife at the time she was likely involved with Joseph...if she was involved with Joseph.

I believe he discusses in detail this in his article on polyandry that is available online. If you don't know it already, I will try and find it for you....but I am trying to get caught up on a lot of board conversation and email right now...and then go ceiling fan shopping so not right now.

[HairBear]

I was involved, in another forum, in a conversation with someone who said Joseph was a pedophile.

To which I replied and asked them to prove it, provide some evidence. And also said that while I wasn't personally comfortable with the way plural marriage was practiced, that the accusation was completely unfounded.

They repeated their accusation suggesting I'd not done enough research. I replied that perhaps they would like to provide their evidence he had sex with children if they were so certain.

I'm still waiting to hear back from them. I'll expect a long wait. I wish other fora had a CFR function. It really helps to cut to the quick.

On this subject though. How does Hales prove which people had sex and that there was no parallel physical relationships? I suppose later journal entries, testimonies and children/no children?

Zina had a second child with Henry Jacobs after being married to Joseph. So presumably she was one of the women not having relations with Joseph?

I think some critics consider being married to a 14 year old means Joseph had sex with a 14 year old. Of course that isn't necessarly the case.

[EllenMaksoud]

I'm trying to figure out why this subject keeps coming up? Is this some sort misplaced of collective guilt? We know it happened, and now we know it does not. It seems that this subject gets trotted out on a fairly regular basis, and personally it confounds me. Is there some sort of hidden agenda that seeks to legalize it again? I notice that there are no women on this panel. HMPH !  This is a non issue.

 

I personally think that if you got your wives in on this discussion, it would no longer seem like such a titillating idea, with beckoning charm.

 

I come from a culture where polygamy is practiced, and the only thing that holds the men off is the wives.

[Robert F. Smith]

I think some critics consider being married to a 14 year old means Joseph had sex with a 14 year old. Of course that isn't necessarly the case.

And even if he did marry and have intercourse with a 14 year old, so what?  Being married at age 14 was at one time in this country no big deal for a young woman.  There were no high schools in those days, and a 14-year-old woman could even be an elementary school teacher.

During the Roman Empire, a young woman typically married at age 12 - 13.

In ancient Israel, early marriage was not unusual: King Josiah's sons include (1) Johanan, b. 635? (2) Jehoiakim-Eliakim b. 634, (3) Jehoahaz-Shallum b. 632, and (4) Zedekiah-Mattaniah b. 618 B.C. (cf. 1 Chronicles 3:15)—their births when Josiah was 13, 14, 16, and 30 years of age, respectively (2 Kings 23:31, 36; 24:18, to his wives Zebudah and Hamutal), and one frequently hears that Mary the mother of Jesus was likely around 14 when she gave birth.

[Calm]

I'm trying to figure out why this subject keeps coming up? Is this some sort misplaced of collective guilt? We know it happened, and now we know it does not. It seems that this subject gets trotted out on a fairly regular basis, and personally it confounds me. Is there some sort of hidden agenda that seeks to legalize it again?

It comes up primarily for two reasons...one, some critics use it to try and make Joseph Smith and other prophets and thus our church immoral, and two, because of uncertainty of how it is going to play out in the eternities. Many women are concerned about sharing their husband with another woman, other women (and their husbands) are worried about having to choose if they have remarried after the death of a first husband due to the tradition---not doctrine---that women will only be able to be married to one man. Generally if a woman has questions, they are told "don't worry, it will all be sorted out in the future" which isn't as reassuring as some people think it is. Edited August 16, 2013 by calmoriah

[HairBear]

And even if he did marry and have intercourse with a 14 year old, so what?  Being married at age 14 was at one time in this country no big deal for a young woman.  There were no high schools in those days, and a 14-year-old woman could even be an elementary school teacher.

During the Roman Empire, a young woman typically married at age 12 - 13.

In ancient Israel, early marriage was not unusual: King Josiah's sons include (1) Johanan, b. 635? (2) Jehoiakim-Eliakim b. 634, (3) Jehoahaz-Shallum b. 632, and (4) Zedekiah-Mattaniah b. 618 B.C. (cf. 1 Chronicles 3:15)—their births when Josiah was 13, 14, 16, and 30 years of age, respectively (2 Kings 23:31, 36; 24:18, to his wives Zebudah and Hamutal), and one frequently hears that Mary the mother of Jesus was likely around 14 when she gave birth.

 

I agree with you. So what? I have no problem with Joseph Smith's polygamy or ployandry. It doesn't change my belief that he was a Prophet, or my belief in the Restoration. And it definitely doesn't change my belief in God, or that Jesus is the Christ.

[Calm]

And even if he did marry and have intercourse with a 14 year old, so what?  Being married at age 14 was at one time in this country no big deal for a young woman.  There were no high schools in those days, and a 14-year-old woman could even be an elementary school teacher.

During the Roman Empire, a young woman typically married at age 12 - 13.

In ancient Israel, early marriage was not unusual: King Josiah's sons include (1) Johanan, b. 635? (2) Jehoiakim-Eliakim b. 634, (3) Jehoahaz-Shallum b. 632, and (4) Zedekiah-Mattaniah b. 618 B.C. (cf. 1 Chronicles 3:15)—their births when Josiah was 13, 14, 16, and 30 years of age, respectively (2 Kings 23:31, 36; 24:18, to his wives Zebudah and Hamutal), and one frequently hears that Mary the mother of Jesus was likely around 14 when she gave birth.

Helen also describes herself as looking older than her age so she was definitely past puberty, which is not how some people want to portray her. They instead want people to think of her as a little girl rather than someone who may have been fully grown in the sense of height and weight (I didn't grow any after I turned 13 and I wasn't 'advanced' for my age by any means) though certainly not fully developed mentally and emotionally...brain takes till 26 or so years iirc, though culturally she would have been treated in many ways as an adult as Robert has pointed out.

[Tacenda]

And even if he did marry and have intercourse with a 14 year old, so what? Being married at age 14 was at one time in this country no big deal for a young woman. There were no high schools in those days, and a 14-year-old woman could even be an elementary school teacher.

During the Roman Empire, a young woman typically married at age 12 - 13.

In ancient Israel, early marriage was not unusual: King Josiah's sons include (1) Johanan, b. 635? (2) Jehoiakim-Eliakim b. 634, (3) Jehoahaz-Shallum b. 632, and (4) Zedekiah-Mattaniah b. 618 B.C. (cf. 1 Chronicles 3:15)—their births when Josiah was 13, 14, 16, and 30 years of age, respectively (2 Kings 23:31, 36; 24:18, to his wives Zebudah and Hamutal), and one frequently hears that Mary the mother of Jesus was likely around 14 when she gave birth.

I had always been under the impression that the answer FAIR gives isn't as clear cut. And definitely not the norm. I had read somewhere else that marriageable age was closer to 17, 18 range. Maybe it fluctuates. As in now, around my town, girls are getting married around 18, 19 years of age. It's almost like, whatever the trend is. I'm appalled that the girls in my ward or town want to do that verses see the world or live on their own, go away to college, or just have "me" time.

Also, how come the roundtable never mentions Emma in all this?

ETA: "Even Jane Austen, writing in the early 19th century had heroines married at the earliest age of 17 or 18. In Laura Ingalls Wilder’s books, which are semi-autobiographical, her father would not allow her to marry until she was 18. Thus it can be said that the average woman was past 21 when entering her first marriage, 100 years ago." http://www.wisegeek.org/how-has-the-average-age-at-marriage-changed-over-time.htm

Edited August 16, 2013 by Tacenda

[cdowis]

Marriageble age -- wiki comes to the rescue

 

Historically, the age of consent for a sexual union has been determined by tribal custom or has been a matter for families to decide. In most cases, this has coincided with signs of puberty: menstruation for a woman and pubic hair for a man.^[2]

In Ancient Rome, it was very common for girls to marry and have children shortly after the onset of puberty. Roman law required brides to be at least 12 years old. In Roman law, first marriages to brides aged 12–25 required the consent of the bride and her father, but by the late antique period Roman law permitted women over 25 to marry without parental consent.^[3] The Catholic canon law followed the Roman law. In the 12th century, the Catholic Church drastically changed legal standards for marital consent by allowing daughters over 12 and sons over 14 to marry without their parents' approval, even if their marriage was made clandestinely.^[4] Parish studies have confirmed that late medieval women did sometimes marry against their parents' approval.^[5] The Catholic Church's policy of considering clandestine marriages and marriages made without parental consent to be valid was controversial, and in the 16th century both the French monarchy and the Lutheran church sought to end these practices, with limited success.^[6]

[Darren10]

and then go ceiling fan shopping...

What for? You're already one cool chick.

[Calm]

Thus it can be said that the average woman was past 21 when entering her first marriage, 100 years ago." http://www.wisegeek.org/how-has-the-average-age-at-marriage-changed-over-time.htm

That would depend on whether one was in the city or the more frontier areas.  Frontier areas tend to be significantly lower in marriage ages.

 

IIRC, FairMormon tells percentages for comparison and it was not typical for someone to marry that young, but not uncommon enough it would have caused any more comment than when someone marries at the age of 18...where most people aren't shocked even if they don't think it's wise.

[Calm]

What for? You're already one cool chick.

Perhaps...but my house isn't always.  

 

BTW, I don't think of Jane Austen as someone who pushes social boundaries in that sense all that much even if she made some pretty strong comments about it (granted I haven't read too many of her novels, but if my memory serves me she presented typical genteel society of her age and then criticized it), so to use "even Jane Austen" seems a little over the top to me.  On a similar note, anyone know the age of Mr. Rochester?

Edited August 16, 2013 by calmoriah

[EllenMaksoud]

It comes up primarily for two reasons...one, some critics use it to try and make Joseph Smith and other prophets and thus our church immoral, and two, because of uncertainty of how it is going to play out in the eternities. Many women are concerned about sharing their husband with another woman, other women (and their husbands) are worried about having to choose if they have remarried after the death of a first husband due to the tradition---not doctrine---that women will only be able to be married to one man. Generally if a woman has questions, they are told "don't worry, it will all be sorted out in the future" which isn't as reassuring as some people think it is.

I find it interesting that it is always men in these discussions, as if we women have no voice in the discussion, so as you say, we never get heard. It feels similar to the 72 virgins thing in Islam. It is sort of a standing discussion that men will have this in Jennah (Heaven), but of course it is not in the Qur'an.

 

Men need to be told, or told off, if you wish that this thing does things to women, and it is disingenuous and heartless for men to keep pushing it. I have known two women who were in polygamous marriage with other women, The one was wringing her hands and almost crying about the issue. And the others husband was about to do it. They even have the women convinced that it is in the Qur'an, when it is not.

 

I need to leave off this subject because I am getting mad.  I am in this church because Heavenly Father put me here.

[EllenMaksoud]

I had always been under the impression that the answer FAIR gives isn't as clear cut. And definitely not the norm. I had read somewhere else that marriageable age was closer to 17, 18 range. Maybe it fluctuates. As in now, around my town, girls are getting married around 18, 19 years of age. It's almost like, whatever the trend is. I'm appalled that the girls in my ward or town want to do that verses see the world or live on their own, go away to college, or just have "me" time.

Also, how come the roundtable never mentions Emma in all this?

ETA: "Even Jane Austen, writing in the early 19th century had heroines married at the earliest age of 17 or 18. In Laura Ingalls Wilder’s books, which are semi-autobiographical, her father would not allow her to marry until she was 18. Thus it can be said that the average woman was past 21 when entering her first marriage, 100 years ago." http://www.wisegeek.org/how-has-the-average-age-at-marriage-changed-over-time.htm

I was reading a women's journal from around 1620, in the American colonies.  Remember, even in those days people could read and write because they were taught to read the Bible. In her journal, she writes that she was sold to a man at age 12 to pay a family debt. Later she had a baby by him and he sold her baby to someone else to pay his debt. These were not African slaves but English and European poor people who paid for their passage by serving when they got here.

 

I said this to illustrate that marriage or co-habitation happened even in American culture very early, so having early marriage in LDS culture was nothing new.

Edited August 16, 2013 by EllenMaksoud

[ERayR]

It comes up primarily for two reasons...one, some critics use it to try and make Joseph Smith and other prophets and thus our church immoral, and two, because of uncertainty of how it is going to play out in the eternities. Many women are concerned about sharing their husband with another woman, other women (and their husbands) are worried about having to choose if they have remarried after the death of a first husband due to the tradition---not doctrine---that women will only be able to be married to one man. Generally if a woman has questions, they are told "don't worry, it will all be sorted out in the future" which isn't as reassuring as some people think it is.

 

You forgot that it has shock value to our 21st century mores.  Most do not stop to consider mores change.  As has been pointed out these things were viewed differently then.  As recently as 53 years ago I got married to a bride not yet 15.  The neighbors weren't shocked at all, but they were confused when our first child was not born until 14 months later. 

[Calm]

You forgot that it has shock value to our 21st century mores.  Most do not stop to consider mores change.   

I thought I implied that in my first condition.  Thank you for making it clear.  

Edited August 16, 2013 by calmoriah

[Daniel Peterson]

I find it interesting that it is always men in these discussions, as if we women have no voice in the discussion, so as you say, we never get heard. 

 

I feel that I should address this complaint, which I expected.

 

I tried to recruit the best authorities on the subject, and, in fact, that's who these three are.

 

I was aware that it would be a problem if no women were involved.  There is a woman historian who has published an excellent book on later -- that is, Utah period -- plural marriage, and we approached her.  She was willing, but is out of the country until early September.  So, since we wanted to move forward with this, we decided to do it without her.  Perhaps she can be involved at a later time.

 

In the meanwhile, though, surely the discussion ought to be judged on its merits rather than on the basis of the anatomy of those participating in it.

[Calm]

 

I was aware that it would be a problem if no women were involved.  There is a woman historian who has published an excellent book on later -- that is, Utah period -- plural marriage, and we approached her.  

She would be an excellent addition, I hope you can make it work (assuming here I know who you mean, but since there isn't really a wide field of options, I think I am pretty safe).

[Scott Lloyd]

She would be an excellent addition, I hope you can make it work (assuming here I know who you mean, but since there isn't really a wide field of options, I think I am pretty safe).

Oh, I'll go ahead and guess Kathleen Flake.

[cinepro]

And even if he did marry and have intercourse with a 14 year old, so what?  Being married at age 14 was at one time in this country no big deal for a young woman.  There were no high schools in those days, and a 14-year-old woman could even be an elementary school teacher.

During the Roman Empire, a young woman typically married at age 12 - 13.

In ancient Israel, early marriage was not unusual: King Josiah's sons include (1) Johanan, b. 635? (2) Jehoiakim-Eliakim b. 634, (3) Jehoahaz-Shallum b. 632, and (4) Zedekiah-Mattaniah b. 618 B.C. (cf. 1 Chronicles 3:15)—their births when Josiah was 13, 14, 16, and 30 years of age, respectively (2 Kings 23:31, 36; 24:18, to his wives Zebudah and Hamutal), and one frequently hears that Mary the mother of Jesus was likely around 14 when she gave birth.

 

 

Hey, ya know what might help raise the average age of marriage for the girls?  Not practicing polygamy!

[Tacenda]

Hey, ya know what might help raise the average age of marriage for the girls? Not practicing polygamy!

And to never inquire the Lord about it, would be good.