Calm Posted August 16, 2013 Posted August 16, 2013 (edited) Oh, I'll go ahead and guess Kathleen Flake. Okay, that makes two. I was thinking Kathryn Daynes. Edited August 16, 2013 by calmoriah
why me Posted August 16, 2013 Posted August 16, 2013 And to never inquire the Lord about it, would be good.Some of these women did inquire of the lord about the principle and received a powerful spiritual experience that it was true. So, they said to being married to Joseph Smith. We tend to overlook the spiritual experiences of the women involved and how this influenced their decisions about plural marriage.
cinepro Posted August 16, 2013 Posted August 16, 2013 (edited) And even if he did marry and have intercourse with a 14 year old, so what? Being married at age 14 was at one time in this country no big deal for a young woman. There were no high schools in those days, and a 14-year-old woman could even be an elementary school teacher.During the Roman Empire, a young woman typically married at age 12 - 13.In ancient Israel, early marriage was not unusual: King Josiah's sons include (1) Johanan, b. 635? (2) Jehoiakim-Eliakim b. 634, (3) Jehoahaz-Shallum b. 632, and (4) Zedekiah-Mattaniah b. 618 B.C. (cf. 1 Chronicles 3:15)—their births when Josiah was 13, 14, 16, and 30 years of age, respectively (2 Kings 23:31, 36; 24:18, to his wives Zebudah and Hamutal), and one frequently hears that Mary the mother of Jesus was likely around 14 when she gave birth.Just so I'm clear, if there were a 38 year old FLDS man who wanted to marry a 14 year old girl in his community, and her parents were okay with it, would you have a problem with it from a spiritual or moral standpoint?Setting legal considerations aside. Because it's one thing to argue that it was okay because it was what God wanted. But it's another thing to argue that it's generally okay, and we just don't see it because of our culture. Edited August 16, 2013 by cinepro 3
Scott Lloyd Posted August 16, 2013 Posted August 16, 2013 Okay, that makes two. I was thinking Kathryn Daynes. Actually, that's who came to my mind, but for some reason I verbalized it as Kathleen Flake. It's the K-a-t-h that confused me.
Calm Posted August 16, 2013 Posted August 16, 2013 We tend to overlook the spiritual experiences of the women involved and how this influenced their decisions about plural marriage.For some of us, it is the most important aspect of the whole experience though.
Calm Posted August 16, 2013 Posted August 16, 2013 Actually, that's who came to my mind, but for some reason I verbalized it as Kathleen Flake. It's the K-a-t-h that confused me.Both of them have written on the subject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Flake(I'd love to read her The Emotional and Priestly Logic of Plural Marriage) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Daynes
foster Posted August 16, 2013 Posted August 16, 2013 Just so I'm clear, if there were a 38 year old FLDS man who wanted to marry a 14 year old girl in his community, and her parents were okay with it, would you have a problem with it from a spiritual or moral standpoint?Setting legal considerations aside. Because it's one thing to argue that it was okay because it was what God wanted. But it's another thing to argue that it's generally okay, and we just don't see it because of our culture.It would.depend on the context of the lives of current FLDS 14 year old and that of Helen Mar Kimball.
EllenMaksoud Posted August 16, 2013 Posted August 16, 2013 Some of these women did inquire of the lord about the principle and received a powerful spiritual experience that it was true. So, they said to being married to Joseph Smith. We tend to overlook the spiritual experiences of the women involved and how this influenced their decisions about plural marriage.Don't mean to be blunt here but I just have to lay this out. I have never met a woman who was in the least interested in sharing "HER" man with another woman. However, from personal experience, people who are nagged, pressured and bullied can be made to agree to almost anything. On the other hand, I am going to a birthday party tonight for an old friend, and I know that she has lots of very open minded friends. I will see if she has any who would be willing to share. 4
Calm Posted August 16, 2013 Posted August 16, 2013 Don't mean to be blunt here but I just have to lay this out. I have never met a woman who was in the least interested in sharing "HER" man with another woman. It is one thing to speculate on how one would react, it is another thing to live it. I do know that I have an ancestor or two who insisted that her husband face up to the fact that it was time to take another wife, pointed out to him who would be appropriate and then gave him a good shove in the back to get him started. 1
EllenMaksoud Posted August 16, 2013 Posted August 16, 2013 Just so I'm clear, if there were a 38 year old FLDS man who wanted to marry a 14 year old girl in his community, and her parents were okay with it, would you have a problem with it from a spiritual or moral standpoint?Setting legal considerations aside. Because it's one thing to argue that it was okay because it was what God wanted. But it's another thing to argue that it's generally okay, and we just don't see it because of our culture.There are crafty weedling people who can make us agree to almost anything.
EllenMaksoud Posted August 16, 2013 Posted August 16, 2013 It is one thing to speculate on how one would react, it is another thing to live it. I do know that I have an ancestor or two who insisted that her husband face up to the fact that it was time to take another wife, pointed out to him who would be appropriate and then gave him a good shove in the back to get him started.It would be interesting to speak to someone like that. And, I can see that if I had 8 kids and knew that we as a community were too few, AND if there was a shortage of like minded available men ...
Scott Lloyd Posted August 16, 2013 Posted August 16, 2013 Both of them have written on the subject. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Flake(I'd love to read her The Emotional and Priestly Logic of Plural Marriage) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_DaynesI'm better acquainted with Kathryn Daynes, though I have read both of them. Of the two, Daynes is the one I've met personally, the year she was MHA president. (I can more easily sympathize now with people who confuse me with Scott Gordon.) 1
webbles Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 It is one thing to speculate on how one would react, it is another thing to live it. I do know that I have an ancestor or two who insisted that her husband face up to the fact that it was time to take another wife, pointed out to him who would be appropriate and then gave him a good shove in the back to get him started. I have a relative (not direct ancestor) that told her husband to take a second wife. She was the one that approached the second wife and pretty much worked it all out. And this was in the 1920s (and yes, they were excommunicated for it). What is interesting is that her children (the first wife) are still practicing polygamy while the children of the second wife are members of the church and are stake presidents and temple presidents.
Tacenda Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 Some of these women did inquire of the lord about the principle and received a powerful spiritual experience that it was true. So, they said to being married to Joseph Smith. We tend to overlook the spiritual experiences of the women involved and how this influenced their decisions about plural marriage.I'm saying if a prophet (JS) never would have inquired about it. Why would we need to restore something that wasn't even on the earth ever, like polyandry?
strappinglad Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 I'm saying if a prophet (JS) never would have inquired about it. Why would we need to restore something that wasn't even on the earth ever, like polyandry?Sorry,polyandry is perhaps rare but not unheard of. Besides , never say never.
why me Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 Don't mean to be blunt here but I just have to lay this out. I have never met a woman who was in the least interested in sharing "HER" man with another woman. However, from personal experience, people who are nagged, pressured and bullied can be made to agree to almost anything. Well, this is true. However, after praying about it and that woman experiences a strong spiritual experience to confirm it, what is she to do? This is what happened to some of these women.
Robert F. Smith Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 Scott Lloyd, on 16 Aug 2013 - 1:16 PM, said:Oh, I'll go ahead and guess Kathleen Flake. Okay, that makes two. I was thinking Kathryn Daynes. Actually the foremost authority is Jessie Embry, and she is also the most widely published on polygyny among Mormons.
Robert F. Smith Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 I had always been under the impression that the answer FAIR gives isn't as clear cut. And definitely not the norm. I had read somewhere else that marriageable age was closer to 17, 18 range. Maybe it fluctuates. As in now, around my town, girls are getting married around 18, 19 years of age. It's almost like, whatever the trend is. I'm appalled that the girls in my ward or town want to do that verses see the world or live on their own, go away to college, or just have "me" time............................................................. ETA: "Even Jane Austen, writing in the early 19th century had heroines married at the earliest age of 17 or 18. In Laura Ingalls Wilder’s books, which are semi-autobiographical, her father would not allow her to marry until she was 18. Thus it can be said that the average woman was past 21 when entering her first marriage, 100 years ago." http://www.wisegeek.org/how-has-the-average-age-at-marriage-changed-over-time.htmAs recently as the 1950s, to get pregnant or to get married (or both) meant for a high school student that high school was over immediately, and this was before the pill. The shame was tremendous. In frontier colonial America, on the other hand, life was hard, the women were strong, and an early marriage meant merely that the young woman became part of an extended family -- with much support and love from family members. Among ultra-orthodox yeshiva students, the overwhelming effort is to get them married by age 18 so that they can begin families right away and so that they will not be distracted from their studies of Bible and Talmud. If they are from Chabad, and are good students, they will be ordained as rabbis and likely assigned to lengthy missions to distant lands (say 25 years in Russia or India, ministering to inactive Jews). So they may indeed eventually get to "see the world." 1
EllenMaksoud Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 Well, this is true. However, after praying about it and that woman experiences a strong spiritual experience to confirm it, what is she to do? This is what happened to some of these women.Let me be clear, I am not against Polygamy. I have never met another woman who is for it. I will not deny the power of the experience of another person, however. Tonight I was out with the elders doing a teaching with an Investigator, a 28 year old woman with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and she actually does pretty well. Her most heart felt complaint is that she wants a child. In her circumstances, with the right people, with the blessing of Heavenly Father, perhaps something could happen. One comment that I have heard about Sister Wives is that if one of them wants to go to college or participate in political activisim, they were able to do it because the other wives would care for the children. I must sound a lot like a woman who is trying to talk herself into it. I don't mind if it happens, I just do not want any abuse at any level, physical, psychological or otherwise. I believe it still goes on and outside the FLDS church. I don't have any keys, so what do I know? I suppose I have to ask myself a question. Would I do it? I have to honestly say that under the right circumstances I would. At my age, it is impossible, but ... I have worked as a house keeper, and in fact that is how I came to meet the Mormons. My time here in Portland feels like it is drawing to a close, and I have been thinking of seeking employment as a house keeper again. Perhaps it would be the answer to my dreams to help some overwhelmed woman with 8 children go back to college. Such is the stuff daydreams are made of.
webbles Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 I had always been under the impression that the answer FAIR gives isn't as clear cut. And definitely not the norm. I had read somewhere else that marriageable age was closer to 17, 18 range. Maybe it fluctuates. As in now, around my town, girls are getting married around 18, 19 years of age. It's almost like, whatever the trend is. I'm appalled that the girls in my ward or town want to do that verses see the world or live on their own, go away to college, or just have "me" time.Also, how come the roundtable never mentions Emma in all this?ETA: "Even Jane Austen, writing in the early 19th century had heroines married at the earliest age of 17 or 18. In Laura Ingalls Wilder’s books, which are semi-autobiographical, her father would not allow her to marry until she was 18. Thus it can be said that the average woman was past 21 when entering her first marriage, 100 years ago." http://www.wisegeek.org/how-has-the-average-age-at-marriage-changed-over-time.htm I was just watching Pride and Prejudice (the BBC version) and realized that Georgiana was going to elope at age 15 with Mr. Wickham and that Lydia actually married him while she was around 16. He would be roughly 28. So that link might be correct about the heroines, but Jane Austen did talk about women being married or contemplating marriage earlier than 17.
Calm Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 Scott Lloyd, on 16 Aug 2013 - 1:16 PM, said: Actually the foremost authority is Jessie Embry, and she is also the most widely published on polygyny among Mormons. Man, my brain is dead today. I can't believe I'm 1 out of 3.
EllenMaksoud Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 Oh, I'll go ahead and guess Kathleen Flake.Being a rather unseasoned convert, I was not aware of her. In looking her up, she has a rather interesting view on religion, and one I find quite appealing and it will be fun reading her work. http://www.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/flake.html
EllenMaksoud Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 Okay, that makes two. I was thinking Kathryn Daynes. I have been reading about both women and find it interesting that there is a woman's perspective to all this. It also generates more questions about Joseph Smith and his possible motivations, and they are not negative questions about him.
omni Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 It's important to note that Joseph was 38 at the time he married Helen. We keep hearing that it wasn't uncommon for 14 year old girls to marry at that time, but were they marrying men more than twice their age?
Tacenda Posted August 17, 2013 Posted August 17, 2013 It's important to note that Joseph was 38 at the time he married Helen. We keep hearing that it wasn't uncommon for 14 year old girls to marry at that time, but were they marrying men more than twice their age?Of course, fatherly figure dontcha know?
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