Spirit Of The Lord = Holy Ghost?

[bluebell]

I was going through some quotes and scriptures concerning the Holy Ghost, and came upon a scripture that was linked to Him (and a quote supporting that interpretation) which I had always read before as referring to Christ.

The verse in question is 1 Ne. 11:11

"11 And I said unto him: To know the interpretation thereof—for I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another."

Given the context of this verse, it makes sense that Nephi is speaking with the Holy Ghost, but for some reason I just always assumed that it meant Christ (since Christ had not been born yet and did not yet have a physical body).

This is the quote that goes along with this scripture-

“As a Spirit personage the Holy Ghost has size and dimensions. He does not fill the immensity of space, and cannot be everywhere present in person at the same time. He is also called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of Truth, and the Comforter” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:38).

That the verse above is about the Holy Ghost isn't really that interesting in and of itself, but the implication for this interpretation seems to be that there is no way that the Holy Ghost could be Heavenly Mother, though I often hear on this board that such could be a real possibility, and that seemed very interesting to me.

So, does this verse in 1 Nephi prove indefinitely (at least for those who believe the BOM to be scripture) that such cannot be the case?

[Tacenda]

In my heart of hearts I've always felt the HG is the Lord's spirit to be with us.

[bluebell]

In my heart of hearts I've always felt the HG is the Lord's spirit to be with us.

Can you clarify what you mean, because I'm not sure I'm understanding exactly what you are saying?

[Duncan]

surprisingly that verse isn't talked about specifically in general conference according to this site:

http://scriptures.byu.edu/

I seem to recall Elder Talmage saying something about this verse, see if I can find it

[Ahab]

I was going through some quotes and scriptures concerning the Holy Ghost, and came upon a scripture that was linked to Him (and a quote supporting that interpretation) which I had always read before as referring to Christ.

The verse in question is 1 Ne. 11:11

"11 And I said unto him: To know the interpretation thereof—for I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another."

Given the context of this verse, it makes sense that Nephi is speaking with the Holy Ghost, but for some reason I just always assumed that it meant Christ (since Christ had not been born yet and did not yet have a physical body).

This is the quote that goes along with this scripture-

“As a Spirit personage the Holy Ghost has size and dimensions. He does not fill the immensity of space, and cannot be everywhere present in person at the same time. He is also called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of Truth, and the Comforter” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:38).

That the verse above is about the Holy Ghost isn't really that interesting in and of itself, but the implication for this interpretation seems to be that there is no way that the Holy Ghost could be Heavenly Mother, though I often hear on this board that such could be a real possibility, and that seemed very interesting to me.

So, does this verse in 1 Nephi prove indefinitely (at least for those who believe the BOM to be scripture) that such cannot be the case?

I wouldn't go so far as to say there is "no way" that Spirit could be Heavenly Mother, because in some way our Heavenly Mother is in each of her children, including our Lord. Just as a part of you will be in each of your children when you start creating your children, as she does.

[bluebell]

surprisingly that verse isn't talked about specifically in general conference according to this site:

http://scriptures.byu.edu/

I seem to recall Elder Talmage saying something about this verse, see if I can find it

Thanks Duncan that would be awesome.

[Kate]

Elder James E. Talmadge said:

“That the [Holy Ghost] is capable of manifesting Himself in the form and figure of man, is indicated by the wonderful interview between the Spirit and Nephi, in which He revealed Himself to the prophet, questioned him concerning his desires and belief, instructed him in the things of God, speaking face to face with the man.

‘I spake unto him,’ says Nephi, ‘as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.’ ” (Discourses on the Holy Ghost, comp. N. B. Lundwall, Bookcraft, Inc., 1959, p. 13.)

Joseph Smith said:

"The Holy Ghost is a personage, and is in the form of a personage." (TPJS p. 276)

When the phrase "in the form of a man" or "form of man" or "form of a personage" is used, I believe it could be more a reference to the form of a human being. "Man" is used for man/woman throughout the scriptures, so I feel that it doesn't negate the possibility of Heavenly Mother having the role of the Holy Ghost.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Kate

[bluebell]

Elder James E. Talmadge said:

“That the [Holy Ghost] is capable of manifesting Himself in the form and figure of man, is indicated by the wonderful interview between the Spirit and Nephi, in which He revealed Himself to the prophet, questioned him concerning his desires and belief, instructed him in the things of God, speaking face to face with the man.

‘I spake unto him,’ says Nephi, ‘as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.’ ” (Discourses on the Holy Ghost, comp. N. B. Lundwall, Bookcraft, Inc., 1959, p. 13.)

Joseph Smith said:

"The Holy Ghost is a personage, and is in the form of a personage." (TPJS p. 276)

When the phrase "in the form of a man" or "form of man" or "form of a personage" is used, I believe it could be more a reference to the form of a human being. "Man" is used for man/woman throughout the scriptures, so I feel that it doesn't negate the possibility of Heavenly Mother having the role of the Holy Ghost.

Thanks Kate for those quotes.

I suppose that Nephi could have been speaking with a woman and just not think it important to make that point clear. Maybe looking at the verses preceding verse 11 could help decipher whether or not it could have been Heavenly Mother that Nephi was actually having a conversation with. I'll have to do that...

[Kate]

Thanks Kate for those quotes.

I suppose that Nephi could have been speaking with a woman and just not think it important to make that point clear. Maybe looking at the verses preceding verse 11 could help decipher whether or not it could have been Heavenly Mother that Nephi was actually having a conversation with. I'll have to do that...

It is interesting that he refers to the Spirit as "angel" further on. However, he does say "he" and "him".

[David T]

My thoughts on the text, and then my thoughts on a theological construct (speculation, aka Mormon Fan Fiction) of the Holy Ghost:

Scriptural Text:

Contextually and culturally, the individual would be the 'spirit of the LORD', IE, 'the spirit of YHWH'. This could be anything from a circumlocution to saying it represents the actual personage of YHWH, or simply a note that it represents one of His messengers/servants/angels. Identifying Nephi's personage with A member of the Godhead as we understand it today seems a bit anachronistic.

Speculation/Fan Fiction:

I love the (practical) idea of the service of the Holy Ghost/Spirit being more of an active quorum of male and female spirits going out and comforting their brothers and sisters, with perhaps THE Holy Ghost being the Presiding Keyholder of that Quorum. Holy Spirits act as missionaries, and home teachers/visiting teachers, so to say. When one is given the Gift of the Holy Ghost, one is assigned a specific full-time companion (couple?), likely members of one's mortal or spiritual ancestry.

In this way, one can see the work of a Home Teacher and Visiting Teacher as being a mortal part-time extension and parallel of the full-time work of the righteous departed.

Edited August 13, 2013 by David T

[Garden Girl]

Thanks Kate for those quotes.

I suppose that Nephi could have been speaking with a woman and just not think it important to make that point clear. Maybe looking at the verses preceding verse 11 could help decipher whether or not it could have been Heavenly Mother that Nephi was actually having a conversation with. I'll have to do that...

I don't know bluebell... I think Nephi would have been surprised, even astonished, that he was speaking with a woman and would have made note of it... In 1 Nep 11:10, Nephi says "And HE said unto me, what desireth thou?" I don't believe Nephi would have used "he" if he was talking to a woman.

GG

[bluebell]

I don't know bluebell... I think Nephi would have been surprised, even astonished, that he was speaking with a woman and would have made note of it... In 1 Nep 11:10, Nephi says "And HE said unto me, what desireth thou?" I don't believe Nephi would have used "he" if he was talking to a woman.

GG

Good points.

[bluebell]

My thoughts on the text, and then my thoughts on a theological construct (speculation, aka Mormon Fan Fiction) of the Holy Ghost:

Scriptural Text:

Contextually and culturally, the individual would be the 'spirit of the LORD', IE, 'the spirit of YHWH'. This could be anything from a circumlocution to saying it represents the actual personage of YHWH, or simply a note that it represents one of His messengers/servants/angels. Identifying Nephi's personage with A member of the Godhead as we understand it today seems a bit anachronistic.

I suppose that is true, though it does seem, given the context of the verse and the ones which precede it, that it doesn't make sense for Nephi to be speaking with the actual personage of Jesus Christ.

The Spirit of the Lord, in previous verses speaks in a way about the Savior that would make it weird, if He were just talking about Himself (and not only weird, but also different than how Christ had ever spoken of Himself before, if I'm remembering such instances correctly).

Also, looking up other references to 'The Spirit of the Lord' in scripture, the interpretation that such is referencing the Holy Ghost does seem to fit, as it seems that most of the time (not sure if it's all the time since I didn't go through all the references) that phrase is mentioned it is mentioned doing something the Holy Ghost does.

Speculation/Fan Fiction:

I love the (practical) idea of the service of the Holy Ghost/Spirit being more of an active quorum of male and female spirits going out and comforting their brothers and sisters, with perhaps THE Holy Ghost being the Presiding Keyholder of that Quorum. Holy Spirits act as missionaries, and home teachers/visiting teachers, so to say. When one is given the Gift of the Holy Ghost, one is assigned a specific full-time companion (couple?), likely members of one's mortal or spiritual ancestry.

In this way, one can see the work of a Home Teacher and Visiting Teacher as being a mortal part-time extension and parallel of the full-time work of the righteous departed.

That is a fun idea and in some ways already fits right in LDS doctrine.

[Kate]

I don't know bluebell... I think Nephi would have been surprised, even astonished, that he was speaking with a woman and would have made note of it... In 1 Nep 11:10, Nephi says "And HE said unto me, what desireth thou?" I don't believe Nephi would have used "he" if he was talking to a woman.

GG

Yet, Jesus had female disciples and not much mentioned about it in the Bible...and is it possible to really identify as male or female, a personage of spirit (which would be made of light or matter so fine our eyes cannot behold it) if in the "form", which could be "shape" of a man? So referencing the angel with the pronouns "he" and "him" may have just been assumed? These are just thoughts...not saying I'm convinced one way or another.

[MorningStar]

I don't believe the theory that Heavenly Mother could be the Holy Ghost because Heavenly Father has a physical body of flesh and bone and I would think His wife would too, rather than being a spirit.

[Questing Beast]

"Wrest" away.

The HG is male.

The Spirit of the Lord is the same as the Lord that appeared to the Brother of Jared, or to Nephi or to Joshua in armor and bearing a sword. You would not be able to distinguish one from the other, according to the scriptures. Multiple visitants are rare, so comparisons in appearance and ID cannot be made with any confidence....

[ksfisher]

I don't believe the theory that Heavenly Mother could be the Holy Ghost because Heavenly Father has a physical body of flesh and bone and I would think His wife would too, rather than being a spirit.

D&C 130:22

The ^aFather has a ^bbody of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of ^cSpirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not ^ddwell in us.

[Kate]

I don't believe the theory that Heavenly Mother could be the Holy Ghost because Heavenly Father has a physical body of flesh and bone and I would think His wife would too, rather than being a spirit.

I haven't made my mind up one way or the other. I have thought about this too (your comment), but then when I think of what Celestial bodies can do...it wouldn't surprise me if one had the power to use their spirit to accomplish the role that the Holy Ghost must do for us. I know that we can have "out of body" experiences and we are just mere mortals.

Again, these are just thoughts...

[MorningStar]

I haven't made my mind up one way or the other. I have thought about this too (your comment), but then when I think of what Celestial bodies can do...it wouldn't surprise me if one had the power to use their spirit to accomplish the role that the Holy Ghost must do for us. I know that we can have "out of body" experiences and we are just mere mortals.

Again, these are just thoughts...

If that were true, then Heavenly Father could do that, couldn't He? I thought the purpose of the Holy Ghost was for God's presence to be felt everywhere.

[MorningStar]

D&C 130:22

The ^aFather has a ^bbody of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of ^cSpirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not ^ddwell in us.

Thank you.

[Ahab]

The ^aFather has a ^bbody of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of ^cSpirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not ^ddwell in us.

I've always thought it is interesting how we can have more than one spirit in our body, like our spirit and the Holy Spirit.

That would mean that if the spirit of a woman were to enter into my body, with my spirit already in it, I would have both my male spirit and the female spirit within my body with me. Something like a woman having the spirit of a man with her in her body if the Holy Spirit is a male spirit, I suppose.

[David T]

I've always thought it is interesting how we can have more than one spirit in our body, like our spirit and the Holy Spirit.

D&C 130:22

The ^aFather has a ^bbody of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of ^cSpirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not ^ddwell in us.

FWIW, this is Pratt's revision of what Joseph actually appears to have said, as recorded by those there. It doesn't conflict with the idea of a personage of spirit, but it does differ in the important idea of the ability of said spirit to dwell 'in' someone:

William Clayton Diary:

The Holy Ghost is a personage, and a person cannot have the personage of the Holy Ghost in his heart. A man receive the gifts of the H. G., and the H. G. may descend upon a man but not to tarry with him.

Smith Diary (kept by Willard Richards)

the Father has a body of flesh & bones as tangible as mans the Son also, but the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit. --and a person cannot have the personage of the H G. in his heart he may receive the gift of the holy Ghost. it may descend upon him but not to tarry with him,--

FWIW.

Edited August 13, 2013 by David T

[bluebell]

FWIW, this is Pratt's revision of what Joseph actually appears to have said, as recorded by those there. It doesn't conflict with the idea of a personage of spirit, but it does differ in the important idea of the ability of said spirit to dwell 'in' someone:

William Clayton Diary:

Smith Diary (kept by Willard Richards)

FWIW.

This same concept is taught by President Joseph F. Smith as well-

“The Holy Ghost as a personage of Spirit can no more be omnipresent in person than can the Father or the Son, but by his intelligence, his knowledge, his power and influence, over and through the laws of nature, he is and can be omnipresent throughout all the works of God” (Joseph F. Smith, Gospel Doctrine, 61)."

[bluebell]

I've always thought it is interesting how we can have more than one spirit in our body, like our spirit and the Holy Spirit.

That would mean that if the spirit of a woman were to enter into my body, with my spirit already in it, I would have both my male spirit and the female spirit within my body with me. Something like a woman having the spirit of a man with her in her body if the Holy Spirit is a male spirit, I suppose.

That is an interesting thought.

[Ahab]

FWIW, this is Pratt's revision of what Joseph actually appears to have said, as recorded by those there. It doesn't conflict with the idea of a personage of spirit, but it does differ in the important idea of the ability of said spirit to dwell 'in' someone:

William Clayton Diary:

Smith Diary (kept by Willard Richards)

FWIW.

I understand "heart" in that context to refer to our spirit, rather than the heart in our body. In other words, while the Holy Spirit can dwell in our body with our spirit, he doesn't dwell in our spirit. With our spirit, yes, but not in it.