Spirit Of The Lord = Holy Ghost?

[ksfisher]

FWIW, this is Pratt's revision of what Joseph actually appears to have said, as recorded by those there. It doesn't conflict with the idea of a personage of spirit, but it does differ in the important idea of the ability of said spirit to dwell 'in' someone:

William Clayton Diary:

Smith Diary (kept by Willard Richards)

FWIW.

Very good stuff! Do you know the context for Joseph's corrections of Elder Hyde?

[David T]

I understand "heart" in that context to refer to our spirit, rather than the heart in our body. In other words, while the Holy Spirit can dwell in our body with our spirit, he doesn't dwell in our spirit. With our spirit, yes, but not in it.

Earlier in the same talk, he specified the idea of the Father and Son with bodies of flesh and bone dwelling in someone's heart was 'a sectarian notion, and is false' - his thoughts on the HG appear to be an expansion of that. While the Spirit does not have a body of flesh and bones, he indicated, he is still a body, and will not be dwelling inside someone's person.

Edited August 13, 2013 by David T

[David T]

Very good stuff! Do you know the context for Joseph's corrections of Elder Hyde?

From the same page linked:

The manuscript history has a fair number of erasures and insertions in the account of the visit. A transcription of the entry (pages 1509-1511, volume 5) follows:

At 10 A. M. went to meeting, heard Elder O. Hyde preach comparing the sectarian preachers

to crows living on carrion, as they were more fond of lies about the Saints than the truth, and alluding

to the coming of the Saviour, he said, "when he shall appear we shall be like him &c. he will appear

on a white horse as a warrior, and maybe we shall have some of the same spirit; our God is a

Warrior John 14 ch. 2 and 3 v. It is our privilege to have the Father and Son dwelling in our

hearts &c."

[Ahab]

Earlier in the same talk, he specified the idea of the Father and Son with bodies of flesh and bone dwelling in someone's heart was 'a sectarian notion, and is false' - his thoughts on the HG appear to be an expansion of that. While the Spirit does not have a body of flesh and bones, he indicated, he is still a body, and will not be dwelling inside someone's person.

Right, but a person's "person" isn't the same thing as that person's body, or at least not necessarily. Who we are, our essence, is in our spirit, or more accurately, that is what our spirit is. Like when we die and we leave our body to later be reunited with it in the resurrection.

So, with that understand, what our Lord is teaching us through his prophets is that not only can our spirit inhabit our body, but so can the Holy Spirit, with our spirit in it. Not in our heart or our spirit, but with it/us in our body.

The old sectarian notion which is false is the idea that the Holy Spirit dwells in our spirit, or our "heart" which refers to our spirit, or our actual heart in our body as if his person is somehow crammed into that little thing that goes bumpity bump bump in our body.

[David T]

Right, but a person's "person" isn't the same thing as that person's body, or at least not necessarily. Who we are, our essence, is in our spirit, or more accurately, that is what our spirit is. Like when we die and we leave our body to later be reunited with it in the resurrection.

So, with that understand, what our Lord is teaching us through his prophets is that not only can our spirit inhabit our body, but so can the Holy Spirit, with our spirit in it. Not in our heart or our spirit, but with it/us in our body.

The old sectarian notion which is false is the idea that the Holy Spirit dwells in our spirit, or our "heart" which refers to our spirit, or our actual heart in our body as if his person is somehow crammed into that little thing that goes bumpity bump bump in our body.

Looks like Joseph was waving away all of those notions, and suggested that the HG dwells with us like a companion or friend, like the parents who children plead in song to "lead me, guide me, walk beside me."

That said, I find it strange that we still have canonized Apostle Orson Pratt's position on this over the Prophet Joseph's actual teaching. Not that I assume either of them is more correct than the other, or that earlier positions are generally more correct than later. I don't think that's true at all. I just think it's helpful to note that the 'dwelling inside the heart' was actually the opposite of the point of what Joseph appeared to actually have said.

Are there later prophetic re-affirmations that the actual spirit personage of the Holy Spirit personally appears inside someone's physical body? I know of the JFS quote given earlier expressly suggesting an alternate meaning...

Edited August 13, 2013 by David T

[Tacenda]

Can you clarify what you mean, because I'm not sure I'm understanding exactly what you are saying?

Jesus Christ and I'm sticking to it!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Dunno, my wife has been on a kick for the past 6 months that Adam is the HG. Reminds me of an old thread I started years ago.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[bluebell]

Jesus Christ and I'm sticking to it!

So you believe that the Holy Ghost doesn't exist and there are actually only two members of the Godhead?

[Ahab]

Are there later prophetic re-affirmations that the actual spirit personage of the Holy Spirit personally appears inside someone's physical body? I know of the JFS quote given earlier expressly suggesting an alternate meaning...

I think there are, such as those saying the Holy Spirit doesn't dwell in an unholy temple.

Do you realize unholy spirits can and have dwelt in a person's body with that person's spirit?

If you realize unholy spirits can do it, why would you think a holy spirit can not, or does not?

I don't think you've quite caught on yet to what Joseph meant when he said what he said.

[bluebell]

Dunno, my wife has been on a kick for the past 6 months that Adam is the HG. Reminds me of an old thread I started years ago.

What leads her to believe that?

[David T]

What leads her to believe that?

Probably a particular setting where a Trinity is shown being made up of Elohim, Jehovah, and Michael.

[Ahab]

Probably a particular setting where a Trinity is shown being made up of Elohim, Jehovah, and Michael.

It's a possibility, but I'm leaning toward the idea that position in the Godhead is a "calling" and not always the same person.

If that person has always been Adam/Michael, at least for all of us on this planet, then Adam wouldn't have been able to have the Holy Ghost visit him, because he would have been him.

The "rotating calling" idea would also solve the problem for how the Holy Spirit would someday receive his (or her) own body.

[Tacenda]

So you believe that the Holy Ghost doesn't exist and there are actually only two members of the Godhead?

Or I get the spirit of God mixed up with the HG, such as the spirit of God like a fire is burning.....

[Ahab]

Or I get the spirit of God mixed up with the HG, such as the spirit of God like a fire is burning.....

Or I get the spirit of God mixed up with the HG, such as the spirit of God like a fire is burning.....

Easy to do, since they are so much alike. Just keep in mind that each of them is a separate person.

[CV75]

I was going through some quotes and scriptures concerning the Holy Ghost, and came upon a scripture that was linked to Him (and a quote supporting that interpretation) which I had always read before as referring to Christ.

The verse in question is 1 Ne. 11:11

"11 And I said unto him: To know the interpretation thereof—for I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another."

Given the context of this verse, it makes sense that Nephi is speaking with the Holy Ghost, but for some reason I just always assumed that it meant Christ (since Christ had not been born yet and did not yet have a physical body).

This is the quote that goes along with this scripture-

“As a Spirit personage the Holy Ghost has size and dimensions. He does not fill the immensity of space, and cannot be everywhere present in person at the same time. He is also called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of Truth, and the Comforter” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:38).

That the verse above is about the Holy Ghost isn't really that interesting in and of itself, but the implication for this interpretation seems to be that there is no way that the Holy Ghost could be Heavenly Mother, though I often hear on this board that such could be a real possibility, and that seemed very interesting to me.

So, does this verse in 1 Nephi prove indefinitely (at least for those who believe the BOM to be scripture) that such cannot be the case?

Because of the 'the" in "the Spirit of the Lord," it does seem to refer to a title or position and not a personage. Every other reference in the verse is appropriately "him," signifying that the person of the Holy Ghost, with "the Spirit of the Lord" serving as his role or title (and since "the Lord" is Jesus).

So, since "it" refers to a "him," the Spirit of the Lord seems not to be our Heavenly Mother.

Edited August 13, 2013 by CV75

[Darren10]

Thanks Kate for those quotes.

I suppose that Nephi could have been speaking with a woman and just not think it important to make that point clear. Maybe looking at the verses preceding verse 11 could help decipher whether or not it could have been Heavenly Mother that Nephi was actually having a conversation with. I'll have to do that...

That would be a strange omission since Nephi was revealed a person and asked by the Spirit of the Lord who that person was and Nephi replied in verse 13 of 1 Nephi 11, "And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white." Strange if Nephi would point out seeing a female human but not a female spirit.

[Tacenda]

I've heard the spirit of God/Jesus dwells in our hearts. But as you say there are three. So very good subject to wonder about. Could the HG be a family member or guardian angel? Hmmmm.....kind of makes you wonder. But for a long, long time it's been in my mind that the HG is the Spirit of God, as other faiths believe. I've sort of adopted a lot of their thought processes. But like I've said before I'm all over the place in my belief right now.

ETA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Ghost

Holy Spirit (Christianity)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is about the Christian view of the Holy Spirit. For the Holy spirit in other religions, see Holy Spirit.

"Holy Ghost" redirects here. For other uses, see Holy Ghost (disambiguation).

The Holy Spirit depicted as a dove descending on the Holy Family, with God the Father and angels shown atop, by Murillo, c. 1677.

For the large majority of Christians, the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost, from Old English gast, “spirit”) is the third divine person of the Holy Trinity: the "Triune God" manifested as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; each person itself being God.[1][2][3]

The New Testament includes over 90 references to the Holy Spirit.[4] The sacredness of the Holy Spirit is affirmed in all three Synoptic Gospels which proclaim blasphemy against the Holy Spirit as the unforgivable sin.[5] The Holy Spirit plays a key role in the Pauline epistles.[6] In the Johannine writings, three separate terms, "Holy Spirit", "Spirit of Truth", and "Paraclete" are used.[7]

The New Testament details a close relationship between the Holy Spirit and Jesus during his earthly life and ministry.[8] The Gospels of Luke and Matthew and the Nicene Creed state that Jesus was "conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary".[9] The Holy Spirit descended on Jesus as a dove during his Baptism, and in his Farewell Discourse after the Last Supper Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit to his disciples after his departure.[10][11]

The theology of the Holy Spirit is called pneumatology. The Holy Spirit is referred to as the Lord and Giver of Life in the Nicene Creed. The participation of the Holy Spirit in the tripartite nature of conversion is apparent in Jesus' final post-Resurrection instruction to his disciples at the end of the Gospel of Matthew (28:19): "make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".[12] Since the first century, Christians have also called upon God with the name "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" in prayer, absolution and benediction.[13][14]

Also this...

In his Farewell Discourse to his disciples, Jesus promised that he would "send the Holy Spirit" to them after his departure, in John 15:26 stating: "whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth... shall bear witness of me".[10][11]

I think I like the idea that the Holy Spirit is always with us. Verses the HG with us only when we are doing what's right!

I found another site that looks interesting and the end is one about what our church believes....

http://davidlambministries.blogspot.com/2011/10/who-is-holy-ghost.html

Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

1 — the Spirit of the Lord;

2 — the Spirit of wisdom;

3 — the Spirit of understanding;

4 — the Spirit of counsel;

5 — the Spirit of might;

6 — the Spirit of knowledge;

7 — and the Spirit of the fear of the LORD.

http://lds.about.com/od/basicsgospelprinciples/p/holy_ghost_what.htm

It says the Holy Ghost is this....

The Holy Ghost is called by many different names some of which are:

•Comforter

•Holy Spirit

•Light of Christ

•Spirit

•Spirit of God

•Spirit of the Lord

•Spirit of Truth

•Still Small Voice

•Testifier

Edited August 13, 2013 by Tacenda

[Darren10]

That the verse above is about the Holy Ghost isn't really that interesting in and of itself, but the implication for this interpretation seems to be that there is no way that the Holy Ghost could be Heavenly Mother, though I often hear on this board that such could be a real possibility, and that seemed very interesting to me.

So, does this verse in 1 Nephi prove indefinitely (at least for those who believe the BOM to be scripture) that such cannot be the case?

While not proven "definitely" (altering it from "indefinitely"), I do not think at all that the spirit Nephi conversed with was Heavenly Mother, nor do I see the "Spirit of the Lord" at all as Heavenly Mother.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Probably a particular setting where a Trinity is shown being made up of Elohim, Jehovah, and Michael.

This is what started it. She says she is still thinking about it.

[ksfisher]

It's a possibility, but I'm leaning toward the idea that position in the Godhead is a "calling" and not always the same person.

So one day the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost may be "released"? I can imagine the talk after the bishop gets up in sacrament meeting and announces that next week the Godhead will be reorganized. Attendance would be tripled at least for that meeting.

Edited August 13, 2013 by ksfisher

[Darren10]

It is interesting that he refers to the Spirit as "angel" further on. However, he does say "he" and "him".

I have always viewed the "spirit of the Lord" and the angel as two different beings Nephi saw.

11 And I said unto him: To know the interpretation thereof—for I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.

12 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look! And I looked as if to look upon him, and I saw him not; for he had gone from before my presence.

13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.

14 And it came to pass that I saw the heavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me; and he said unto me: Nephi, what beholdest thou?

1 Nephi 11

[Darren10]

Attendance would be tripled at least for that meeting.

[Ahab]

So one day the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost may be "released"? I can imagine the talk after the bishop gets up in sacrament meeting an announces that next week the Godhead will be reorganized. Attendance would be tripled at least for that meeting.

We don't usually hear about callings outside of the Church in our Church meetings. We don't mention a lot of the callings people have outside of the Church. Or don't you know that members of the Godhead aren't members of the Church? They preside over the Church, as well as over every organization in their kingdom outside of the Church, but they aren't and never have been members of any Church on this Earth.

[Darren10]

My thoughts on the text, and then my thoughts on a theological construct (speculation, aka Mormon Fan Fiction) of the Holy Ghost:

Scriptural Text:

Contextually and culturally, the individual would be the 'spirit of the LORD', IE, 'the spirit of YHWH'. This could be anything from a circumlocution to saying it represents the actual personage of YHWH, or simply a note that it represents one of His messengers/servants/angels. Identifying Nephi's personage with A member of the Godhead as we understand it today seems a bit anachronistic.

Speculation/Fan Fiction:

I love the (practical) idea of the service of the Holy Ghost/Spirit being more of an active quorum of male and female spirits going out and comforting their brothers and sisters, with perhaps THE Holy Ghost being the Presiding Keyholder of that Quorum. Holy Spirits act as missionaries, and home teachers/visiting teachers, so to say. When one is given the Gift of the Holy Ghost, one is assigned a specific full-time companion (couple?), likely members of one's mortal or spiritual ancestry.

In this way, one can see the work of a Home Teacher and Visiting Teacher as being a mortal part-time extension and parallel of the full-time work of the righteous departed.

First off, I really do not think the "Spirit of the Lord" Nephi conversed with was YHWH at all but a being separate and distinct from Him. It is the "Spirit of the Lord"/Holy Ghost which alters mortal's surroundings in order for the mortal to enter into a presence divine. Here's what happened to Nephi in the first verse of 1 Nephi 11,

For it came to pass after I had desired to know the things that my father had seen, and believing that the Lord was able to make them known unto me, as I sat pondering in mine heart I was caught away in the Spirit of the Lord, yea, into an exceedingly high mountain, which I never had before seen, and upon which I never had before set my foot.

His surroundings were altered and Nephi was "carried away" to an "exceedingly high mountain". "High mountain" being synonymous with the Old Testament "high mountain" when referencing the temple and its sacred dwellings. The "Spirit of the Lord" also carried away Jesus to be tempted,

Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

(Mathew 4)

Even verse 5 of the King James Version whose verse incorrectly credits the Devil as taking up Jesus to a pinnacle. The Joseph Smith Translation says, "Then Jesus was taken up into the holy city, and the Spirit setteth him on the pinnacle of the temple. ". The Joseph Smith Translation also correct verse 8 at which the JST writes, "And again, Jesus was in the Spirit, and it taketh him … ".

Second of all, your speculation doesn't seem to give the Holy Ghost power to be one with the Father as Jesus is one with the Father, nor power to sanctify and cleanse mortals from sin.

[Darren10]

We don't usually hear about callings outside of the Church in our Church meetings. We don't mention a lot of the callings people have outside of the Church. Or don't you know that members of the Godhead aren't members of the Church? They preside over the Church, as well as over every organization in their kingdom outside of the Church, but they aren't and never have been members of any Church on this Earth.

Perhaps true in a strict sense but there is only one church the Godhead recognizes as the "one true church". That's the church the Spirit of the Lord testifies to be true.