Rivers Posted July 25, 2013 Posted July 25, 2013 All of this discussion about the faith crisis of Hans Mattson has got me thinking. It is unusual these days for somebody in such high leadership in the church to lose their faith. What if somebody in the Quorum of the Twelve or President Monson himself lost faith in the church. How would that affect your own testimony? We rely on these men as special witnesses of Christ and the Restoration. If one of the fifteen men sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators were to lose their faith, would the church lose its credibilty as being Christ's church? I know that many apostles lost ther faith in the early days and we don't make a big deal out of it. But I imagine that something like that happening today would be viewed a lot differently. How would you react?
omni Posted July 25, 2013 Posted July 25, 2013 (edited) I think it would have a major impact on those who are already struggling, but most TBMs would continue to believe. One thing it would most likely do is put an end to the belief that all apostles have seen Christ. Edited July 26, 2013 by omni
Duncan Posted July 25, 2013 Posted July 25, 2013 well, even if they saw Christ and fell away-many have beforeI would be shocked but realize that Satan is an excellent fisherman and he knows who he wants and how to get to people and we are all in the same boat as it were 4
Bikeemikey Posted July 25, 2013 Posted July 25, 2013 (edited) All of this discussion about the faith crisis of Hans Mattson has got me thinking. It is unusual these days for somebody in such high leadership in the church to lose their faith. What if somebody in the Quorum of the Twelve or President Monson himself lost faith in the church. How would that affect your own testimony? We rely on these men as special witnesses of Christ and the Restoration. If one of the fifteen men sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators were to lose their faith, would the church lose its credibilty as being Christ's church? I know that many apostles lost ther faith in the early days and we don't make a big deal out of it. But I imagine that something like that happening today would be viewed a lot differently. How would you react?One of the advantages of being an LDS member that is skeptical of the institution is that the loss of faith of an Apostle or prophet would have no impact on me... The downside is I sometimes totally ignore what they have to say to me.That said I think it highly unlikely we would ever find out about periods of Apostolic doubt... I am sure they happen though.I am sure that some may have a top pick list of who would be good to get out that way. There would be an immediate psychological revolt agains any thing that Apostle have ever written (not that its right, but only natural). Would be really easy to get over some of the crazy things Apostles have said if they left the church. You could always just say, "yeah... but they went apostate... end of debate". Edited July 25, 2013 by Bikeemikey
Questing Beast Posted July 25, 2013 Posted July 25, 2013 Apostles have lost faith before. Witnesses of angels have lost faith in the Church, but not their witnessing of angels. So it could be possible for an apostle who has "seen Christ" to lose faith in the Church. If said hypothetical apostate apostle (heh) were to deny that Christ exists, then I would be given the choice of believing that I have met my first bonafide SOP, or that apostles don't really get visited by Christ, and that one is just Mormon folklore.The Church would continue without much hitch in its gitalong as long as a majority of the "fifteen" hung together. Even that much wasn't given to the first Mormons, when nearly all the twelve were disaffected with JS at one point and left him. And here "we" are today, fat and happy. Faith, even obstinate or blind faith, is a wonderful thing. One thing we cannot bear is living with ourselves if we are shown to be a fool in the eyes of the world. It's one thing to be seen as a "stupid Mormon", and quite another to admit that to yourself. Rather than that, it is better to hold to what you believe and keep fighting. That's why religions work under the most arduous circumstances....
cinepro Posted July 25, 2013 Posted July 25, 2013 (edited) We would definitely be hearing a lot of stories about Judas and other latter day apostles that had fallen away. Everything's okay, it's happened before!And there would no doubt be a team of Photoshop experts going through the Church website and "fixing" all the pictures. Edited July 25, 2013 by cinepro
thesometimesaint Posted July 25, 2013 Posted July 25, 2013 Peter denied Jesus three times. Thomas doubted till he saw the Resurrected Christ. The other apostles thought they saw a ghost. Judas betrayed Jesus.Doubt is just part of the human condition. We have to gain our own sure testimony of Jesus the Christ, and then build upon it every day. The time is fast approaching when we will not be able to stand in borrowed light. We must have our own lamps filled with oil. 2
Freedom Posted July 25, 2013 Posted July 25, 2013 Hans is not in a position of authority so he is not a great example. In 1988/89 we lost a general authority to apostasy, there was a member of the 70 in the 1950's I think who was excommunicated for adultery. otherwise we have to go back to 1840 I think. That is a pretty darn good track record of people staying with the iron rod. I know of police officers who get busted for running prostitution rings and doctors who get charged with murder. This has not caused my testimony of law enforcement or medicine to be shaken. 2
Buzzard Posted July 25, 2013 Posted July 25, 2013 Hans is not in a position of authority so he is not a great example. In 1988/89 we lost a general authority to apostasy, there was a member of the 70 in the 1950's I think who was excommunicated for adultery. otherwise we have to go back to 1840 I think. That is a pretty darn good track record of people staying with the iron rod. I know of police officers who get busted for running prostitution rings and doctors who get charged with murder. This has not caused my testimony of law enforcement or medicine to be shaken.Actually, it was an apostle who was exed for adultery in 1943, Richard R. Lyman. It wasn't a garden variety cute-secretary-my-wife-doesn't-understand-me affair, he considered it a polygamous union, and they had been cohabitating for years. He was rebaptized in 1954, but never had his temple blessings restored.
cinepro Posted July 25, 2013 Posted July 25, 2013 (edited) Hans is not in a position of authority so he is not a great example. In 1988/89 we lost a general authority to apostasy, there was a member of the 70 in the 1950's I think who was excommunicated for adultery. otherwise we have to go back to 1840 I think. That is a pretty darn good track record of people staying with the iron rod. I know of police officers who get busted for running prostitution rings and doctors who get charged with murder. This has not caused my testimony of law enforcement or medicine to be shaken.No, there are a few more. Elder Albert Carrington was an apostle who was ex'd in 1885:Albert Carrington’s great service to the Church ended four years before his death. In November 1885 he was tried by his fellow apostles, was found guilty of transgression, and was excommunicated. Two years later he was rebaptized. Albert Carrington died a member of the Church.http://rsc.byu.edu/a...cy/6-albert-carThe "transgression" occurred while Carrington was in England, and involved a maid (and apparently other young women as well). Carrington's defense of his actions was stunningly creative from both a doctrinal and physiological perspective, but this being a family message board, I'll leave the details for those skillful in the ways of Google. Edited July 25, 2013 by cinepro
cinepro Posted July 25, 2013 Posted July 25, 2013 Also Elder John W. Taylor in 1911 for disagreeing about the end of polygamy.
cinepro Posted July 25, 2013 Posted July 25, 2013 Amasa Lyman is probably the most relevant to this thread, because he was actually ex'd for preaching against the necessity and reality of the Atonement!For two years, beginning in 1860, he and Elder Charles C. Rich presided jointly over the European Mission. During this assignment in England, Elder Lyman preached that the Atonement of Christ was not necessary. When called into account for this heresy by the Quorum of the Twelve, he confessed his error, asked forgiveness, and published a retraction of the false doctrine. However, within a few weeks he was again found expounding the same teaching and was released from the Quorum of the Twelve. In 1870 he was excommunicated from the Church.[4] He later associated himself with an apostate organization called the Godbeites. He died in 1877, having never returned to the cause for which he had given so much.[5]BYU Religious Studies Center - Amasa Lyman
The Nehor Posted July 25, 2013 Posted July 25, 2013 Carrington has me in awe. I thought I was good at rationalizing. He was a true master.
Duncan Posted July 25, 2013 Posted July 25, 2013 Carrington has me in awe. I thought I was good at rationalizing. He was a true master.Have you read the article about him in JMH? fascinating! I am still waiting for them to put up the article about Joseph F. Smith the patriarch to the Church, who some believe was gay and others don't so should be a great read
Duncan Posted July 25, 2013 Posted July 25, 2013 (edited) Also Elder John W. Taylor in 1911 for disagreeing about the end of polygamy.and Elders Matthias F. Cowley and Moses Thatcher around that same time too. There was Bishop John Q. Cannon of the Presiding Bishopric who was up to no good as well, not sure what he did though Edited July 25, 2013 by Duncan
The Nehor Posted July 25, 2013 Posted July 25, 2013 Have you read the article about him in JMH? fascinating! I am still waiting for them to put up the article about Joseph F. Smith the patriarch to the Church, who some believe was gay and others don't so should be a great readI find discussions of dead people's sexuality very dull. Unless the living person is a pansexual pervert I find them equally boring.
ERayR Posted July 25, 2013 Posted July 25, 2013 All of this discussion about the faith crisis of Hans Mattson has got me thinking. It is unusual these days for somebody in such high leadership in the church to lose their faith. What if somebody in the Quorum of the Twelve or President Monson himself lost faith in the church. How would that affect your own testimony? We rely on these men as special witnesses of Christ and the Restoration. If one of the fifteen men sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators were to lose their faith, would the church lose its credibilty as being Christ's church? I know that many apostles lost ther faith in the early days and we don't make a big deal out of it. But I imagine that something like that happening today would be viewed a lot differently. How would you react?My testimony does not rest and rely on any GA but on the personal revelation I have received of the Book of Mormon and the restoration. Can't find it now but Joseph Smith is reported to have said that he longed for the day when every member was a prophet in their own right. 1
Rivers Posted July 25, 2013 Author Posted July 25, 2013 My testimony does not rest and rely on any GA but on the personal revelation I have received of the Book of Mormon and the restoration. Can't find it now but Joseph Smith is reported to have said that he longed for the day when every member was a prophet in their own right.In Elder Holland's last conference talk, he told members who are struggling in their faith that they could lean on his tetimony. Imagine if Elder Holland lost his faith. That would be a huge blow to a lot of people to whom that talk resonated with.
CV75 Posted July 25, 2013 Posted July 25, 2013 How would you react?I would feel sad and pray for him.and consider, "There but for the grace of God, go I."
CV75 Posted July 25, 2013 Posted July 25, 2013 Imagine if Elder Holland lost his faith.This is why the Lord's annointed are very open about asking us to pray for them and sustain them. Not only does it help them in a very tangible way, but it keeps our minds on something more compatible with the work and the glory: imagining each other as chidlren of God reunited in His presence.
ERayR Posted July 25, 2013 Posted July 25, 2013 In Elder Holland's last conference talk, he told members who are struggling in their faith that they could lean on his tetimony. Imagine if Elder Holland lost his faith. That would be a huge blow to a lot of people to whom that talk resonated with.Nice gesture and might be of some value to some but hence the folly of building your testimony on somebody elses base. I would offer to let someone lean on my testimony if it would help but would certainly be uneasy until we could get them on their own.
ERayR Posted July 25, 2013 Posted July 25, 2013 I find discussions of dead people's sexuality very dull. Unless the living person is a pansexual pervert I find them equally boring.Nehor you often amuse me, sometimes bemuse me and at others confuse me. Keep up the good work. 1
Avatar4321 Posted July 26, 2013 Posted July 26, 2013 All of this discussion about the faith crisis of Hans Mattson has got me thinking. It is unusual these days for somebody in such high leadership in the church to lose their faith. What if somebody in the Quorum of the Twelve or President Monson himself lost faith in the church. How would that affect your own testimony? We rely on these men as special witnesses of Christ and the Restoration. If one of the fifteen men sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators were to lose their faith, would the church lose its credibilty as being Christ's church? I know that many apostles lost ther faith in the early days and we don't make a big deal out of it. But I imagine that something like that happening today would be viewed a lot differently. How would you react?The Apostles, while inspiring, did not give me my witness of the Restoration. The Holy Spirit did. If Jesus Christ is the Son of God and rose from the dead and Joseph Smith is a prophet, then it doesn't matter if President Monson or anyone else lost faith. I live by the witness the Spirit gave me. I would mourn if any of them lost their faith, but it wouldn't change the fact that the Holy Spirit told me the Restoration is true. 2
Garden Girl Posted July 26, 2013 Posted July 26, 2013 (edited) The Apostles, while inspiring, did not give me my witness of the Restoration. The Holy Spirit did. If Jesus Christ is the Son of God and rose from the dead and Joseph Smith is a prophet, then it doesn't matter if President Monson or anyone else lost faith. I live by the witness the Spirit gave me. I would mourn if any of them lost their faith, but it wouldn't change the fact that the Holy Spirit told me the Restoration is true.Me too, Avatar... it would break my heart and cause me to review in my mind and prayers all of the spiritual witnesses I've been given... about the BoM... about several important foundational issues... about the gospel in general... I would be in prayer all the more. That "still small voice" is unmistakeable. I would hope that the peace that accompanied would help me...This "what if" scenario seems so speculative because I'm sure the 15 members of the leadership have heard that voice and received numerous witnesses of the Spirit to the point that it would seem unlikely they would lose their faith... but, as pointed out, several others have done just that... GG Edited July 26, 2013 by Garden Girl
rongo Posted July 26, 2013 Posted July 26, 2013 I am sure that some may have a top pick list of who would be good to get out that way. There would be an immediate psychological revolt agains any thing that Apostle have ever written (not that its right, but only natural). Would be really easy to get over some of the crazy things Apostles have said if they left the church. You could always just say, "yeah... but they went apostate... end of debate". Amasa Lyman gave some great talks in Journal of Discourses over the decades before he left the reservation and went bonkers (denying the atonement, and repeatedly teaching it in England, despite censure and warnings). Richard R. Lyman was excommunicated for polygamy in the modern era (It's happened before.1940s, wasn't it?). So it has happened before.
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