City Creek Mall

[Scott Lloyd]

You can consider yourself corrected.

I think you are being way too dismissive.

From what I understand of the Kirtland Safety Society episode, there it was a complex situation involving a number of factors, and it is way too simplistic to put the blame at the feet of Joseph Smith and other Church leaders.

[why me]

From what I understand of the Kirtland Safety Society episode, there it was a complex situation involving a number of factors, and it is way too simplistic to put the blame at the feet of Joseph Smith and other Church leaders.

It was bad timing and also there were people invested in the bank that had ill feelings toward the lds church. The bad timing was that the US went into a banking crisis that was somewhat repeated in 2008. And then the mormon haters began a run on the bank, escalating the problem.

[USU78]

Some non-profits are exempt for some purposes. A shopping mall, even if owned by a non-profit, would not normally be exempt -- don't know about Utah law. Shopping malls don't qualify under 501© 3, but they may be using a non-profit as a holding company for the project -- hard to say.

True enough. Very hard to say in this context. Does nonprofit merely mean nonprofit? Or does it mean it's a qualified tax-write-off donation receiving entity.

[rockpond]

I think you are being way too dismissive.

From what I understand of the Kirtland Safety Society episode, there it was a complex situation involving a number of factors, and it is way too simplistic to put the blame at the feet of Joseph Smith and other Church leaders.

I'm sorry to have started the tangent. My point was just to agree that some commercial ventures entered into by church leaders have been successful, some have not. I view "success" as independent of inspiration. Sometimes the Lord tells us to do things that may not be successful in the way we had thought/hoped.

[jim_mason]

That surprises me, but I'm not exactly shocked that the Church's management subsidiary is a 501©(3).

Some non-profits are exempt for some purposes. A shopping mall, even if owned by a non-profit, would not normally be exempt -- don't know about Utah law. Shopping malls don't qualify under 501© 3, but they may be using a non-profit as a holding company for the project -- hard to say.

City Creek Reserve, Inc. according to this 990-T is a 501c3, I do not practice tax law nor am I an Accountant, so I can not say what the tax liabilities would be for CCRI as a 501c3.

Edited July 18, 2013 by jim_mason

[Scott Lloyd]

It was bad timing and also there were people invested in the bank that had ill feelings toward the lds church. The bad timing was that the US went into a banking crisis that was somewhat repeated in 2008. And then the mormon haters began a run on the bank, escalating the problem.

I think that's a far better assessment of the situation than what Stone holm has given us.

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm sorry to have started the tangent. My point was just to agree that some commercial ventures entered into by church leaders have been successful, some have not. I view "success" as independent of inspiration. Sometimes the Lord tells us to do things that may not be successful in the way we had thought/hoped.

I agree with this. Zion's Camp is a classic example.

[rockpond]

I would not put it that bluntly. But the concept is sound, is it not? If you don't like a situation, set an example for people to follow in improving it.

I'm not sure that the concept is sound (no offense). I think that setting an example is difficult when it is two different families each week coming from three different wards. We've discussed calling a ward facilities manager to be there each Saturday morning and manage the cleaning process. But even that would only be every third month since the other wards take the other months.

[cinepro]

It was bad timing and also there were people invested in the bank that had ill feelings toward the lds church. The bad timing was that the US went into a banking crisis that was somewhat repeated in 2008. And then the mormon haters began a run on the bank, escalating the problem.

Explaining why something failed isn't the same thing as explaining why something wasn't a failure.

[why me]

Right, Scott. I'll just tell them that: "You don't like it, come in and clean it yourself."

I think that most wards and branches have volunteer cleaners. For example, a family may be assigned to clean the meeting areas fro a month. I have never heard of hired janitors. Since it is volunteer work, this is good for service. I see a win win.

[USU78]

You can consider yourself corrected.

Bad economy (the early 1830s depression), the speculators, the decision to jump the gun before they got the regulators' final okeydokey, and the probably theft of the paid-in capital all contributed.

[rockpond]

I think that most wards and branches have volunteer cleaners. For example, a family may be assigned to clean the meeting areas fro a month. I have never heard of hired janitors. Since it is volunteer work, this is good for service. I see a win win.

We've had janitors in many of the wards I've lived in until a few years back.

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm not sure that the concept is sound (no offense). I think that setting an example is difficult when it is two different families each week coming from three different wards. We've discussed calling a ward facilities manager to be there each Saturday morning and manage the cleaning process. But even that would only be every third month since the other wards take the other months.

So delegate.

Make it a ward facilities committee with a manager at the head. Then the committee members could take turns being there on different weeks to manage things. (It occurs to me that the most vociferous complainers might be the top candidates for committee positions.)

Or delegate the management responsibilities to the Melchizedek Priesthood quorum and group leaders. In our ward, it is the presidency and group leadership who are already making the assignments. Tell them that, for a while, they need to take more of an oversight responsibility as to whether things are getting done.

And work with the agent bishop to coordinate with the other wards in the building.

In truth, it just doesn't seem that insurmountable of a problem to me.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Duncan]

The following IS NOT from the article I mentioned earlier, the following is from Bloomberg:

How The Mormons Make Money

Keith B. McMullin, who for 37 years served within the Mormon leadership and now heads a church-owned holding company, Deseret Management Corp. (DMC), an umbrella organization for many of the church’s for-profit businesses. “We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”

McMullin explains that City Creek exists to combat urban blight, not to fill church coffers. “Will there be a return?” he asks rhetorically. “Yes, but so modest that you would never have made such an investment—the real return comes in folks moving back downtown and the revitalization of businesses.” Pausing briefly, he adds with deliberation, “It’s for furthering the aim of the church to make, if you will, bad men good, and good men better.”

As a religious organization, the LDS Church enjoys several tax advantages. Like other churches, it is often exempt from paying taxes on the real estate properties it leases out, even to commercial entities, says tax lawyer David Miller, who is not Mormon. The church also doesn’t pay taxes on donated funds and holdings.

I take exception with the phrase about people being impoverished cannot blossom spiritually, I don't think the Holy Ghost cares one whit how much money you have in your wallet before being your constant companion

[rockpond]

So delegate.

Make it a ward facilities committee with a manager at the head. Then the committee members could take turns being there on different weeks to manage things. (It occurs to me that the most vociferous complainers might be the top candidates for committee positions.)

Or delegate the management responsibilities to the Melchizedek Priesthood quorum and group leaders. In our ward, it is the presidency and group leadership who are already making the assignments. Tell them that, for a while, they need to take more of an oversight responsibility as to whether things are getting done.

In truth, it just doesn't seem that insurmountable of a problem to me.

It does not seem insurmountable to me either: We just need to hire back the janitors.

[Scott Lloyd]

Explaining why something failed isn't the same thing as explaining why something wasn't a failure.

I'm having trouble seeing the distinction.

Edited to add:

Never mind. I misread the post.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

It does not seem insurmountable to me either: We just need to hire back the janitors.

I meant insurmountable short of throwing money at the problem.

Voluntarism vs. tax-and-spend socialism, don't you see?

Edited July 18, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[rockpond]

I meant insurmountable short of throwing money at the problem.

Voluntarism vs. tax-and-spend socialism, don't you see?

I knew what you meant. Just feeling kinda beat up here with everyone telling me that we just aren't delegating or communicating well enough. It's not that easy.

[Scott Lloyd]

I knew what you meant. Just feeling kinda beat up here with everyone telling me that we just aren't delegating or communicating well enough. It's not that easy.

Maybe you need a hug.

By the way, it was much easier for me to dispense advice on parenting when I was still a single adult.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

I knew what you meant. Just feeling kinda beat up here with everyone telling me that we just aren't delegating or communicating well enough. It's not that easy.

It certainly helps to live in a ward with small ward boundaries so that it is easier for people to get to the building and they aren't as inclined to leave as quickly for the long drive home after an activity. I also think when the ward building is a part of one's neighbourhood, one identifies with it more and thus are more likely to take care of it...not contributing with activities that damage things, etc. Edited July 18, 2013 by calmoriah

[Stone holm]

Bad economy (the early 1830s depression), the speculators, the decision to jump the gun before they got the regulators' final okeydokey, and the probably theft of the paid-in capital all contributed.

The 1800's were a complete roller coaster ride economically with a variety of issues including the shortage of money, we weren't the only ones who tried the safety society route and had it blow up in our face, the whole thing did not settle down until they finally got rid of the various metal standards backing money and went to a single "fiat" standard currency. We have certainly had a few ups and downs even then with the Carter/Reagan recession with skyrocketing inflation and the recent Great Recession with plummeting deflation of real estate -- but the ups and downs have not been quite as severe. I don't know of any credible historian who thought Joseph Smith was a whiz bang businessman, it wasn't his function.

[Thinking]

Nor is tithing bringing in billions a year.

1,951,937 (68.36%) of Utah’s total population of 2,855,287 were members of the LDS Church in 2012. The total personal income in Utah for 2012 was $98,797,168,000. If Mormons made 68.36% of the personal income, that total would be $67.54 billion. 10% (tithing) of that total is $6.754 billion. If the critics are correct, there is only a 25% activity rate, which would reduce that total to $1.69 billion. That’s $1.69 billion in tithing just from Utah.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Thinking

[omni]

Got it: City Creek Mall is providing humanitarian aid.

Yes, along with Wal-Mart, Target, Wells Fargo, etc. These aren't really large corporations, they're just humanitarian organizations in disguise.

Edited July 18, 2013 by omni

[omni]

I think there's a pretty simple solution to this. Why doesn't the church just announce that they'll be donating all profits from the CCC to humanitarian aid. The church achieves its stated goal of preserving the area around its headquarters. The critics are satisfied by the large donations and best of all millions of lives can be improved through the humanitarian aid. Everyone wins!

[Ahab]

I think there's a pretty simple solution to this. Why doesn't the church just announce that they'll be donating all profits from the CCC to humanitarian aid. The church achieves its stated goal of preserving the area around its headquarters. The critics are satisfied by the large donations and best of all millions of lives can be improved through the humanitarian aid. Everyone wins!

Look for statements conveying the same idea and I'm sure you'll find them. Think about what "donating" means and how there are many ways to "donate" to people to aid or help them in humanitarian ways. The giving of money doesn't have to be for nothing, as if a handout is the only way to donate. Buying products and services from the people who have things in the mall for sale is a good way of providing humanitian aid, too, for those in the shops as well as those who make the things the shops are selling.