City Creek Mall

[strappinglad]

Many years ago a government official in a 3rd world country got on his high horse about the Church receiving tithing monies from the members there and sending it to the US. The Church dutifully sent the official an audited report on the financial disbursements in the country. Approximately $ 25,000 was received into the Church from tithes etc. in one year. During that same time over $250,000 was transferred to the church and membership there from the US. The government official quietly stopped his inquiry. Just where do you think the funds come from to build temples and chapels in areas whose membership numbers justify them, but whose finances simply will not generate the funds to construct buildings ?

[Stone holm]

16 credits or so out of at least 120...I call that very small, especially considering the level of homework required for it was pretty nil, at least in my case.

I rather doubt that the courses in religion play that big of a role in the religious education and experience of BYU. BYUs most significant role is as a Mormon marriage mill. It's educational and research benefits are merely icing on the cake.

[Thinking]

Many years ago a government official in a 3rd world country got on his high horse about the Church receiving tithing monies from the members there and sending it to the US. The Church dutifully sent the official an audited report on the financial disbursements in the country. Approximately $ 25,000 was received into the Church from tithes etc. in one year. During that same time over $250,000 was transferred to the church and membership there from the US. The government official quietly stopped his inquiry. Just where do you think the funds come from to build temples and chapels in areas whose membership numbers justify them, but whose finances simply will not generate the funds to construct buildings ?

I have heard this story before. Do you know what country or year?

[cinepro]

Many years ago a government official in a 3rd world country got on his high horse about the Church receiving tithing monies from the members there and sending it to the US. The Church dutifully sent the official an audited report on the financial disbursements in the country. Approximately $ 25,000 was received into the Church from tithes etc. in one year. During that same time over $250,000 was transferred to the church and membership there from the US. The government official quietly stopped his inquiry. Just where do you think the funds come from to build temples and chapels in areas whose membership numbers justify them, but whose finances simply will not generate the funds to construct buildings ?

Number of true stories that begin with the phrase "many years ago"..?

0

But that doesn't mean it can't be

.

[why me]

I think there's a pretty simple solution to this. Why doesn't the church just announce that they'll be donating all profits from the CCC to humanitarian aid. The church achieves its stated goal of preserving the area around its headquarters. The critics are satisfied by the large donations and best of all millions of lives can be improved through the humanitarian aid. Everyone wins!

Humanitarian aid is a bottomless pit. All the money that went to the world's poor did not improve the plight of the poor. They were still poor getting a handout. How many billions have governments given in humanitarian aid and yet, the poor are still with us. What do the poor need? Jobs at decent wages. It has to do with the economy. If the system creates poverty, no amount of humanitarian aid will cure it. Just ask Bob Geldorf and his BandAid charity.

The idea that the lds church can fix world poverty by giving billions to humanitarian aid is false. It has more to do with a system that focuses on profit at the expense of people. Cure that...and we just may see results.

[why me]

The 1800's were a complete roller coaster ride economically with a variety of issues including the shortage of money, we weren't the only ones who tried the safety society route and had it blow up in our face, the whole thing did not settle down until they finally got rid of the various metal standards backing money and went to a single "fiat" standard currency. We have certainly had a few ups and downs even then with the Carter/Reagan recession with skyrocketing inflation and the recent Great Recession with plummeting deflation of real estate -- but the ups and downs have not been quite as severe. I don't know of any credible historian who thought Joseph Smith was a whiz bang businessman, it wasn't his function.

The capitalist system goes though boom and bust cycles. In 2008, it went bust. And as it booms and busts, the level of poverty increases regardless. Why? Profit before people. Now the church does have a idea about what kind of system may help the plight of the poor. Does anyone listen? No. And if the lds church gave a billion to run the hospital, that hospital would still have to charge good fees to the patients becoming marred in insurance claims etc. It would have to make a profit. I know of no free jewish or catholic hospitals. And if this is the case, the critics would moan that a lds hospital is making a profit and charging patients huge fees.

Edited July 19, 2013 by why me

[Thinking]

Humanitarian aid is a bottomless pit. All the money that went to the world's poor did not improve the plight of the poor. They were still poor getting a handout. How many billions have governments given in humanitarian aid and yet, the poor are still with us. What do the poor need? Jobs at decent wages. It has to do with the economy. If the system creates poverty, no amount of humanitarian aid will cure it. Just ask Bob Geldorf and his BandAid charity.

The idea that the lds church can fix world poverty by giving billions to humanitarian aid is false. It has more to do with a system that focuses on profit at the expense of people. Cure that...and we just may see results.

Sometimes you need to FIRST feed a man a fish for a day in order that you can then teach him how to fish so he can feed himself for a lifetime.

I think it's disrespectful to call humanitarian aid a bottomless pit.

[why me]

On another forum I made a comment that the charity work of the catholic church and the lds church cannot be compared because of membership numbers. There are 76 millioin catholics in the United States and just a few million mormons. The number of catholics and their vocational system makes a great deal of difference in what catholics and mormons can do. It seems that catholic hospitals are not exactly controlled by the catholic church and many such hospitals were started by religious orders. The lds have no religious orders to run such businesses. Likewise for other catholic charities. They may not be under the control of the catholic church but by lay organizations or religious orders that identify as catholic.

Thus, the reason why it would be difficult for the lds church to go into the hospital business. Catholic schools are also run by religious orders. And they do close because of lack of funds.

http://www.uscatholic.org/blog/2012/03/are-catholic-hospitals-and-universities-really-danger-closing

Edited July 19, 2013 by why me

[why me]

Sometimes you need to FIRST feed a man a fish for a day in order that you can then teach him how to fish so he can feed himself for a lifetime.

I think it's disrespectful to call humanitarian aid a bottomless pit.

This is not true at all. The fish still needs to come another day and yet, even after eating that fish, the person is still poor. What that person needs is a system in place that give that person a decent job to support themselves. However, with the current ideology of globalization, this seems impossible.

It is a bottomless pit that does not cure the plight of the poor. We need a new value system that stresses people before profit. However, the lds church has always helped people find work, especially where membership numbers are high.

[Calm]

Thus, the reason why it would be difficult for the lds church to go into the hospital business.

Are you forgetting LDS Hospital and Primary Children's Hospital (if you didn't grow up in the Church perhaps you are unfamiliar with the cardboard bank in the shape of the hospital that used to be a part of opening exercises in Primary and "Pennies by the Inch", a fundraising program that this still going). While the Church may not own them anymore, they successfully ran them for almost a century. Edited July 19, 2013 by calmoriah

[Thinking]

This is not true at all. The fish still needs to come another day and yet, even after eating that fish, the person is still poor. What that person needs is a system in place that give that person a decent job to support themselves. However, with the current ideology of globalization, this seems impossible.

It is a bottomless pit that does not cure the plight of the poor. We need a new value system that stresses people before profit. However, the lds church has always helped people find work, especially where membership numbers are high.

I don't think you understood my statement. Let me 'splain.

Sometimes you need to FIRST feed a man a fish for a day - give the starving man some food.

in order that you can then teach him how to fish so he can feed himself for a lifetime - help him secure good employment.

Surely you would feed the poor while you are helping them to become self sufficient.

[canard78]

I mentioned on another post that I'd heard that Michael Quinn is writing a book about church finances. Has anyone heard about it? And how would he know the nitty- gritty of it? In the article below it says something about it on page 2, plus gives an overview of the City Creek Mall project. But this was back in 2012 and during the election process when Mormons were in the limelight.

http://www.businessw...mons-make-money

I know that Signature is publishing and I think it's due for publication next year. I've heard that it has new information and possible rumours of leaked information. But only a rumour.

Based on his previous work, I expect it to be very well sourced.

[why me]

I don't think you understood my statement. Let me 'splain.

Sometimes you need to FIRST feed a man a fish for a day - give the starving man some food.

in order that you can then teach him how to fish so he can feed himself for a lifetime - help him secure good employment.

Surely you would feed the poor while you are helping them to become self sufficient.

I agree. However, until the lds church has a billion members like the catholics, I am afraid that they are limited in what they can do. Are you willing to volunteer your time to do this? The lds church has about five million or so active members, busy working to support their families. Of course the church can hire outside help but....it is difficult to control and not allow corruption into the system.

Although the church has money they do not have the people.

Edited July 19, 2013 by why me

[why me]

Are you forgetting LDS Hospital and Primary Children's Hospital (if you didn't grow up in the Church perhaps you are unfamiliar with the cardboard bank in the shape of the hospital that used to be a part of opening exercises in Primary and "Pennies by the Inch", a fundraising program that this still going). While the Church may not own them anymore, they successfully ran them for almost a century.

And why was it closed? And was the hospital free? My point is that the lds do not have the numbers to have a network of hospitals. And as I pointed out many catholic hospitals are run by religious orders or lay orders. They act independently outside the catholic church. This is why I linked the article from a catholic website. The lds church does not have such a system of religious orders who can found a hospital or school and act accordingly.

http://www.uscatholi...-danger-closing

The link makes for interesting reading. It seems membership numbers do matter as does lay orders and those with vocations within the catholic church: religious orders such as the Jesuits and the Sisters of Saint Paul as examples.

Here is another interesting article:

http://www.uscatholic.org/blog/2012/05/catholic-colleges-and-universities-added-vatican-hit-list-whos-next

Edited July 19, 2013 by why me

[rodheadlee]

Sometimes you need to FIRST feed a man a fish for a day in order that you can then teach him how to fish so he can feed himself for a lifetime.

I think it's disrespectful to call humanitarian aid a bottomless pit.

I think you are in denial

[Bikeemikey]

This is not true at all. The fish still needs to come another day and yet, even after eating that fish, the person is still poor. What that person needs is a system in place that give that person a decent job to support themselves. However, with the current ideology of globalization, this seems impossible.

It is a bottomless pit that does not cure the plight of the poor. We need a new value system that stresses people before profit. However, the lds church has always helped people find work, especially where membership numbers are high.

Have you ever experienced third world poverty? I would be interested in knowing this before responding to you thoughts on the matter of poverty?

[Bikeemikey]

I think you are in denial

Denial of what? Seemed more like a recognition that poor people need food. Do they not need food?

[Bikeemikey]

I am not saying that I believe it is necessarily a valid distinction, I am just saying that I have heard it made. My feeling about City Creek Mall is that I believe they were inspired to understand that something needed to be done. In the 1980's I parked my van in a parking lot near the Church office building while I took my family to tour Temple Square. When we came back I discovered that someone had ripped one of the windows open so they could open the cover to the gas tank and had siphoned our gas. I have never before or since had my gas siphoned. I believe it probably got a lot worse. Whether what they actually did was inspired, I don't know, it sort of sounds like what a bunch of businessmen would decide to do to clean up an area. But I think the impulse to act was inspired to protect an area which has special meaning to a lot of Mormons.

If that's the case then they may not have needed revelation at all to know it was important to do something.

[Stone holm]

If that's the case then they may not have needed revelation at all to know it was important to do something.

Possibly, however, it feels more comfortable to think they had it. A non member housemate of mine from undergraduate days was involved in one of the lawsuits that erupted over the swapping between the Church and the City prior to the Mall which gave the Church control of one of the streets.

[Deborah]

I can't believe we are having another discussion on the mall. I still find it amusing that those who oppose it do so because the "money can be better spent." Providing a beautiful environment, jobs and prosperity to a community is one of the best ways to spend money. And of course we bring up time and again these verses from the New Testament Mark 14:

4 And there were some that had indignation within themselves, and said, Why was this waste of the ointment made?

5 For it might have been sold for more than three hundred pence, and have been given to the poor. And they murmured against her.

6 And Jesus said, Let her alone; why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me.

7 For ye have the poor with you always, and whensoever ye will ye may do them good: but me ye have not always.

People certainly haven't changed, which is why we can still look to the scriptures for lessons. The fact is the poor are always with us. Pouring money into poverty without doing anything to actually change the environment of poverty is not a solution. It is a waste of the resources the Lord has given us.

[Stone holm]

I can't believe we are having another discussion on the mall. I still find it amusing that those who oppose it do so because the "money can be better spent." Providing a beautiful environment, jobs and prosperity to a community is one of the best ways to spend money. And of course we bring up time and again these verses from the New Testament Mark 14:

People certainly haven't changed, which is why we can still look to the scriptures for lessons. The fact is the poor are always with us. Pouring money into poverty without doing anything to actually change the environment of poverty is not a solution. It is a waste of the resources the Lord has given us.

Although I support this project as necessary to protect Temple Square, I have a little trouble with the idea of comparing it to Mary's anointing of Christ and the implicit calling of those critical of it as Judas's. I don't think that the displacement of blight in this case could be easily defended on the basis of economic stimulus intended to benefit the poor and lift them out of poverty. Sorry, but that argument is a non starter.

[Deborah]

I don't think that the displacement of blight in this case could be easily defended on the basis of economic stimulus intended to benefit the poor and lift them out of poverty. Sorry, but that argument is a non starter.

Really? Lifting the environment isn't improving poverty?

http://articles.chic...od-garbage-cans

http://www.pinellasc...development.htm

From the above article:

When neighborhood conditions are not up to the standards of the rest of the community, property values go down. Thus the people who live there cannot afford to sell their property and move elsewhere, so they are trapped. If conditions continue to deteriorate, young people who might have been community leaders leave the neighborhood. Empty homes become "crack houses" or havens for rats and snakes. Elderly residents who are left behind often become easy targets for crime.

[strappinglad]

Number of true stories that begin with the phrase "many years ago"..? > 0 The names have been withheld to protect the guilty

[Questing Beast]

I have heard this story before. Do you know what country or year?

Didn't we hear recently that disadvantaged countries require/request less per capita in fast offering aid than the LDS in the USA do? Money goes farther dollar for dollar in disadvantaged countries, but the impression I got was that we of the USA expect higher standards of living to be provided by fast offering help than LDS in said-disadvantage countries do. The way it was presented to me was that this is unacceptable: we in the USA ought to be content with less, while sending more to those who donate to fast offerings too, and request less back for themselves, even winding up with a "surplus" of fast offerings that go to the headquarters of the Church, and then get dispersed to LDS units in the USA requesting them. So in effect, the Saints in Mexico, for instance, are providing aid for the Saints in SLC....

[Bikeemikey]

Didn't we hear recently that disadvantaged countries require/request less per capita in fast offering aid than the LDS in the USA do? Money goes farther dollar for dollar in disadvantaged countries, but the impression I got was that we of the USA expect higher standards of living to be provided by fast offering help than LDS in said-disadvantage countries do. The way it was presented to me was that this is unacceptable: we in the USA ought to be content with less, while sending more to those who donate to fast offerings too, and request less back for themselves, even winding up with a "surplus" of fast offerings that go to the headquarters of the Church, and then get dispersed to LDS units in the USA requesting them. So in effect, the Saints in Mexico, for instance, are providing aid for the Saints in SLC....

Also many countries like New Zealand require less per capita in assistance to the poor because those countries have much more robust processes to help the poor.