City Creek Mall

[Stone holm]

The Church has major land holdings...many are farms for growing food. Most others are Church historical sites. The remaining make money. You may remember when the Church lowered certain Church donations because they had reached a level where they did not need it...the only time I have never known a church asking for less. This is what Church holdings do.

I remember once having lunch with Elder Faust when a Relief Society Pres. Was pushing back on the Church's call to reduce the number of Stake meetings, Elder Faust said Unnecessry Sacrifice is of Satan.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I remember once having lunch with Elder Faust when a Relief Society Pres. Was pushing back on the Church's call to reduce the number of Stake meetings, Elder Faust said Unnecessry Sacrifice is of Satan.

Had to imagine someone objecting to less meeting. Especially that the Church has made it clear that the reason is so members can spend more time with family. In fact that is why they went to the three hour block. Rumors have been floated for years of doing away with Sunday School for the same reasons. But I enjoy Sunday School,the only class where you get the perspective from both men and women at the same time in a class setting.

[canard78]

I am not aware of any increase in the living standards of those who live in the country. The only people that have benefited from the gigantic manufacturing economy of China are those were left their families in the country and went to live in the cities. Exactly how many have been left behind in this process? If you are going to take a standard to judge others, use that same standard for everyone else; otherwise all that you are doing is fault finding.

Standards of living ARE improving in China. There are several metrics that show that.

[Bikeemikey]

Standards of living ARE improving in China. There are several metrics that show that.

http://www.peri.umass.edu/fileadmin/pdf/conference_papers/Riskin_paperA.pdf

Here is an article somewhat critical of chinas poverty reduction record but still very clear on the huge reduction of poverty in the last 20 years of chinas history.

[Stone holm]

Had to imagine someone objecting to less meeting. Especially that the Church has made it clear that the reason is so members can spend more time with family. In fact that is why they went to the three hour block. Rumors have been floated for years of doing away with Sunday School for the same reasons. But I enjoy Sunday School,the only class where you get the perspective from both men and women at the same time in a class setting.

Actually, the Church sent out a request to Stake Presidencies during the Carter/Reagan recession when gas prices sky rocketed to reduce the number of Stake Center activities because the cost of travel was crushing some members. I remember the incident because I was in charge of the Stake Calendar at the time and both the Stake Relief Society Pres and the Stake Primary Pres were pushing back. It was the Stake Relief Society Pres who was eating lunch with us who asked the question. Elder Faust said it it in his kind grandfatherly way, still I about choked, and that ended further negotiation on the matter.

[Duncan]

I remember once having lunch with Elder Faust when a Relief Society Pres. Was pushing back on the Church's call to reduce the number of Stake meetings, Elder Faust said Unnecessry Sacrifice is of Satan.

Who are you that you had lunch with Elder Faust? don't say batman

[Scott Lloyd]

Who are you that you had lunch with Elder Faust? don't say batman

As he was a bishop, it is not unlikely that Stoneholm had lunch with Pres./Elder Faust. For one thing, visiting General Authorities at stake conferences are often hosted at luncheons involving leaders within the stake.

[Duncan]

As he was a bishop, it is not unlikely that Stoneholm had lunch with Pres./Elder Faust. For one thing, visiting General Authorities at stake conferences are often hosted at luncheons involving leaders within the stake.

makes sense!

[Stone holm]

Who are you that you had lunch with Elder Faust? don't say batman

At that time, back when dinosaurs still roamed the Earth, GAs visiting for Stake Conferences were a common thing. I was the Stake Exec Secretary and in charge of organising the lunch which we had in the High Council Room . The visiting GA ate lunch there with the various Auxilary Presidents, Stake Presidency, Stake Clerk and Executive Secretary. As Exec Secretary, I was also in charge of the Stake Calendar. I had created 12 large sheets of paper which were taped to the walls with monthly calendars on them and the various Stake Leaders had written in their requests and some had been crossed out. Elder Faust had gazed at these and I am positive he knew exactly where the RS Pres was headed with her question. At that same conference He upended a program I was working on to improve HT statistics by taking advantage of a change in Church policy which allowed members membership to be challenged if they joined another Church. In a Bishop Q and A session a Bishop had asked about the change in policy and Elder Faust replied, "oh, I wouldn't take that too seriously joining some of those Churches is like joining Kiwannis. So I realised, okay that program is going to go nowhere and pulled the plug on it. That was back in my zealous go get em relatively recent convert days.

[beanboots]

I've been getting a little livid over this constant verbal/written puke that is catapulted everywhere about City Creek. Annoying as it is, I've remained silent about it. But not anymore.

Yes, it's expensive. Yes, it's real estate. Yes, the Church contracted with a private developer to manage the mall. Yes, they sell alcohol and immodest clothing.

Get over it.

The Church does not own the Cheesecake Factory or the immodest clothing boutiques. They own the land. They built a premier facility where a decrepit mall once stood. The Church provided, directly or indirectly, thousands of jobs during the worst recession in modern times. Self-reliance was taught and encouraged as people went to work and helped to construct the edifices that make up the mall. And now there are more jobs for those who are employed by Taubman or the mall. The Church is helping families to put food on their table and money in their pockets.

The Church was concerned, in my opinion, about people going to the Gateway Mall, distracting from what could be a spiritually and informationally (note that I did not say "intellectually") fulfilling visit to Temple Square. The CPB recognized the commercial competition and subsequent diversion of visitors and tourists from Temple Square. They acted according to what any entity would do to ensure that their agenda is met. The agenda? Helping people to learn about the Church. Making bad men good and good men better. Helping to fulfill the mission of the Church.

The mall will pay for itself. The Church has enough cash flow and investment returns to be self-reliant, as we all know. But why, oh why do people think that it is the Church's duty to give everyone a handout?

There isn't a Bishop that I know that would turn anyone away for food or cash assistance so long as they are helping themselves to be self-reliant. If people come from other parts of the world to Temple Square seeking assistance, they are immediately brought to Welfare Square so that they can get to work and get the resources that they need to succeed.

Every entity has to make wise financial decisions to ensure steady growth. Every entity must further ensure that they have the ability to weather any financial storm that may blow in from any direction at any time. The Church made a very wise decision - spark economic growth in Temple Square by protecting the environment around it as well as providing employment and trade opportunities in the epicenter of downtown Salt Lake.

Why is it important? Because first off, and this should go without saying, the Church has a divine mandate. It doesn't matter if you are a TBM, an exmo, a post-mo, or whatever - I am pretty sure that everyone can agree that the Church has, or at least believes itself to have, a divine mandate to build up the Kingdom of God on the earth. That requires spiritual and temporal growth. The Church did not build the mall at the spiritual or temporal expense of the people. They only enhanced the spiritual and temporal experience and lives of its people - active and inactive members, Jews, and Gentiles alike.

We pay tithing and give fast offerings to help the poor. Wards and stakes are primarily responsible for the local, immediate financial and temporal affairs of its people when they cannot provide for themselves. There isn't a member of this Church that would disagree with the utmost sincerity that (most) priesthood leaders approach these types of situations. They are sincere in their desire to help and they do so by divine guidance.

Now about why the Church isn't solving world hunger with the $5 billion. Seriously - get over it.

If you teach a man to fish... really, you know the phrase. The heightened sense of entitlement that is in the world today screams of envy and jealousy. It must be acknowledged that the Church does as much as it can when it can to feed the hungry and serve the poor. If the Church simply gave money to nations or organizations, they don't know where that money is going to go. Remember the 9/11 fund, where they couldn't track some (or most) of it down because of corruption? Think about it. Why would you give hundreds of millions in aid to corrupt, barely functioning governments?

So here ends my rant. The Church provides when it must provide. It must provide temporally and spiritually because God said so. The mall was built to beautify the area around Temple Square and provide employment and resources to the people of Salt Lake during one of the biggest recessions in history. We feed the hungry. We clothe the naked. We have wards and stakes, bishops and stake presidents, that care for the needy. We don't leave them out in the cold.

The Church hires investment analysts, accountants, auditors, and other professionals for a reason. If this was not a wise move that would not assist in accomplishing the mission of the Church, it would not have been done. But it was. So get over it.

And get back to being humble and being the keeper of your brothers and sisters.

[Stone holm]

I've been getting a little livid over this constant verbal/written puke that is catapulted everywhere about City Creek. Annoying as it is, I've remained silent about it. But not anymore.

Yes, it's expensive. Yes, it's real estate. Yes, the Church contracted with a private developer to manage the mall. Yes, they sell alcohol and immodest clothing.

Get over it.

The Church does not own the Cheesecake Factory or the immodest clothing boutiques. They own the land. They built a premier facility where a decrepit mall once stood. The Church provided, directly or indirectly, thousands of jobs during the worst recession in modern times. Self-reliance was taught and encouraged as people went to work and helped to construct the edifices that make up the mall. And now there are more jobs for those who are employed by Taubman or the mall. The Church is helping families to put food on their table and money in their pockets.

The Church was concerned, in my opinion, about people going to the Gateway Mall, distracting from what could be a spiritually and informationally (note that I did not say "intellectually") fulfilling visit to Temple Square. The CPB recognized the commercial competition and subsequent diversion of visitors and tourists from Temple Square. They acted according to what any entity would do to ensure that their agenda is met. The agenda? Helping people to learn about the Church. Making bad men good and good men better. Helping to fulfill the mission of the Church.

The mall will pay for itself. The Church has enough cash flow and investment returns to be self-reliant, as we all know. But why, oh why do people think that it is the Church's duty to give everyone a handout?

There isn't a Bishop that I know that would turn anyone away for food or cash assistance so long as they are helping themselves to be self-reliant. If people come from other parts of the world to Temple Square seeking assistance, they are immediately brought to Welfare Square so that they can get to work and get the resources that they need to succeed.

Every entity has to make wise financial decisions to ensure steady growth. Every entity must further ensure that they have the ability to weather any financial storm that may blow in from any direction at any time. The Church made a very wise decision - spark economic growth in Temple Square by protecting the environment around it as well as providing employment and trade opportunities in the epicenter of downtown Salt Lake.

Why is it important? Because first off, and this should go without saying, the Church has a divine mandate. It doesn't matter if you are a TBM, an exmo, a post-mo, or whatever - I am pretty sure that everyone can agree that the Church has, or at least believes itself to have, a divine mandate to build up the Kingdom of God on the earth. That requires spiritual and temporal growth. The Church did not build the mall at the spiritual or temporal expense of the people. They only enhanced the spiritual and temporal experience and lives of its people - active and inactive members, Jews, and Gentiles alike.

We pay tithing and give fast offerings to help the poor. Wards and stakes are primarily responsible for the local, immediate financial and temporal affairs of its people when they cannot provide for themselves. There isn't a member of this Church that would disagree with the utmost sincerity that (most) priesthood leaders approach these types of situations. They are sincere in their desire to help and they do so by divine guidance.

Now about why the Church isn't solving world hunger with the $5 billion. Seriously - get over it.

If you teach a man to fish... really, you know the phrase. The heightened sense of entitlement that is in the world today screams of envy and jealousy. It must be acknowledged that the Church does as much as it can when it can to feed the hungry and serve the poor. If the Church simply gave money to nations or organizations, they don't know where that money is going to go. Remember the 9/11 fund, where they couldn't track some (or most) of it down because of corruption? Think about it. Why would you give hundreds of millions in aid to corrupt, barely functioning governments?

So here ends my rant. The Church provides when it must provide. It must provide temporally and spiritually because God said so. The mall was built to beautify the area around Temple Square and provide employment and resources to the people of Salt Lake during one of the biggest recessions in history. We feed the hungry. We clothe the naked. We have wards and stakes, bishops and stake presidents, that care for the needy. We don't leave them out in the cold.

The Church hires investment analysts, accountants, auditors, and other professionals for a reason. If this was not a wise move that would not assist in accomplishing the mission of the Church, it would not have been done. But it was. So get over it.

And get back to being humble and being the keeper of your brothers and sisters.

Don't have a problem with this project, they had to do something to protect Temple Square and they took the best shot they could have been expected to visualise. Lets just not get too carried away with the other justifications.

[cinepro]

You know something is wrong when people start feeling righteous indignation about a fancy mall.

[ERayR]

You know something is wrong when people start feeling righteous indignation about a fancy mall.

Yup your absolutely correct. I wonder why they oppose it like that.

[Stone holm]

You know something is wrong when people start feeling righteous indignation about a fancy mall.

I was a little surprised by the amount of opposition voiced, I think it just kind of didn't set well with people who are struggling to pay bills to see the Church put together a project aimed primarily at a shopping class that was beyond them. Am not sure the Church leadership did as good a job selling the project and the necessity for it to the general membership as they did to the developers. Sometimes you can get a little tone deaf depending on where you are getting your business advice from, like I said I feel the need to do something was inspired, the Lord left the details to His servants.

[Stargazer]

I went to Heber, Utah and visited a resort, The Homestead. They have a yummy breakfast buffet on Sundays, and the waitress there said that some of the GA's or maybe some of the 12, not sure, have eaten there for this. So I don't think they worry too much about eating out on Sunday.

When you're out of town and there's no convenient place to get a meal, then Sabbath is made for man, not the other way around.

[why me]

The Church hires investment analysts, accountants, auditors, and other professionals for a reason. If this was not a wise move that would not assist in accomplishing the mission of the Church, it would not have been done. But it was. So get over it.

And get back to being humble and being the keeper of your brothers and sisters.

Welcome to the board! You may find this a different site than the other board. The Mall is really a non-issue that was made an issue by malcontents who wish to find fault with the church. Basically, it was a good investment and one that will keep downtown vibrant. I don't think that it had much to do with Gateway Mall but with what would draw all salt lake residents to the downtown area. And people do need to shop.

[why me]

I was a little surprised by the amount of opposition voiced, I think it just kind of didn't set well with people who are struggling to pay bills to see the Church put together a project aimed primarily at a shopping class that was beyond them. Am not sure the Church leadership did as good a job selling the project and the necessity for it to the general membership as they did to the developers.

I don't think that they considered the feedback from the critics who attempted to make about it. The critics tended to tie the Mall into the church is a corporation claim. But like I said, these same critics would have moaned and groaned about how a billion dollar church would allow downtown salt lake to become another detroit. I think that the general membership does not care that much about the mall investment. They tend to believe that the church knows what they are doing in these matters.

[canard78]

I've been getting a little livid over this constant verbal/written puke that is catapulted everywhere about City Creek. Annoying as it is, I've remained silent about it. But not anymore.

-snip-

An impressive opening post. Welcome to the board.

I had to ask something though:

We pay tithing and give fast offerings to help the poor. Wards and stakes are primarily responsible for the local, immediate financial and temporal affairs of its people when they cannot provide for themselves.

In what way are tithes directly used to help the poor? I wasn't aware of this.

And if fast offering is 'primarily' used for serving the needs of the members, what about extending humanitarian aid to those beyond the membership of the church?

[canard78]

I was a little surprised by the amount of opposition voiced, I think it just kind of didn't set well with people who are struggling to pay bills to see the Church put together a project aimed primarily at a shopping class that was beyond them. Am not sure the Church leadership did as good a job selling the project and the necessity for it to the general membership as they did to the developers. Sometimes you can get a little tone deaf depending on where you are getting your business advice from, like I said I feel the need to do something was inspired, the Lord left the details to His servants.

I've wondered how much consumer credit card debt is incurred in the City Creek. Too much spending at City Creek is prone to put one in debt. Too much debt is prone to one a long way up the creek of another type. Paddle-less.

[why me]

An impressive opening post. Welcome to the board.

I had to ask something though:

In what way are tithes directly used to help the poor? I wasn't aware of this.

And if fast offering is 'primarily' used for serving the needs of the members, what about extending humanitarian aid to those beyond the membership of the church?

I don't think that there is a church who is basic need. The lds church will help them, if possible. As far as outside the church, I do know that there is an organization called 'Helping Hands' which is church sponsored.

http://www.mormonnew...e/helping-hands

https://www.facebook.com/MormonHelpingHandz

Edited July 22, 2013 by why me

[why me]

And if fast offering is 'primarily' used for serving the needs of the members, what about extending humanitarian aid to those beyond the membership of the church?

http://www.ldsphilanthropies.org/humanitarian-services/funds/humanitarian-general-fund.html

http://www.ldsphilanthropies.org/humanitarian-services/#.Ue0mzqwi4wo

http://www.ldsphilanthropies.org/humanitarian-services/humanitarian-pattern.html#.Ue0nAqwi4wo

[why me]

I've wondered how much consumer credit card debt is incurred in the City Creek. Too much spending at City Creek is prone to put one in debt. Too much debt is prone to one a long way up the creek of another type. Paddle-less.

We all can wonder. However, the church counsels people to spend and consume wisely. But we do have free agency. If you do not like consumer debt, you will need to fight against the consumerist culture which has its roots in the capitalist economy. There is the root of the problem is.You will need to support a system that puts people before profit.

[Calm]

In what way are tithes directly used to help the poor? I wasn't aware of this.

IIRC, tithes are used for the infrastructure of the humanitarian aid and fast offerings so that all the donation and offering can go to the people who need it, not things like transportation and the salaries of those that are paid to drive the trucks, oversee the work, etc.

[Stone holm]

I don't think that there is a church who is basic need. The lds church will help them, if possible. As far as outside the church, I do know that there is an organization called 'Helping Hands' which is church sponsored.

http://www.mormonnew...e/helping-hands

https://www.facebook.com/MormonHelpingHandz

Unless the rules have changed, the Bishop can use fast funds to assist non members he is Bishop to everyone in his Ward not just the members.

[Stone holm]

I don't think that they considered the feedback from the critics who attempted to make about it. The critics tended to tie the Mall into the church is a corporation claim. But like I said, these same critics would have moaned and groaned about how a billion dollar church would allow downtown salt lake to become another detroit. I think that the general membership does not care that much about the mall investment. They tend to believe that the church knows what they are doing in these matters.

Yeah, some would have except the Mall project drew criticism from a broader array of people in the Church, if it had been just the usual suspects, Pres Hinckley would have ignored the heat he was getting rather than the slightly testy verbal rejoinder at Conference. Again I support the concept, just not sure they weren't a little tone deaf, and I wonder how really united the 15 were on this one. I suspect that someone behind closed doors anticipated that solving the blighted community problem in this manner would not be palatable to otherwise supportive members. In my mind, other option if there were any were probably not on their radar screens depending on who the business consultants were.