City Creek Mall

[rpn]

When I hear about the report that GA's were eating at a restaurant on the Sabbath, I remember what happened once to me. I was Priimary President, and I was selling my house on very short notice. On sundays I drove our sometimes foster kids to visit their mother in prison. The realtor told us that the house would not sell without an open house on sunday. And that was the last sunday I'd be able to take the kids. The realtor told us that we couldn't have any signs of humans at the home during the open house. After teaching a sharing time on keeping the sabbath day holy, we took those four children to a local eatery after Sacrament meeting and before our trip of a couple hours. Imagine how utterly chagrinned I was to see two families with the primary children I had just taught about sabbath day observance enter the restaurant. I have never been more chagrined. It was ox in the mire (though it turned out it was more my lack of faith as it sold to someone who had visited it the day before the open house). Sometimes things look bad to outsiders but really are people trying to do their best with the cards they are dealt.

Assuming a GA was eating in a restaurant on the sabbath, one has to assume there was a good reason.

[cinepro]

I've never heard of a GA eating in a restaurant, but I did read about several GA's that were seen picking corn and eating it on the Sabbath, which is even worse because that's like doing actual farm work. Luckily, someone called them on it.

Frankly, it's unbelievable what these GA's think they can get away with sometimes.

Edited July 25, 2013 by cinepro

[Stone holm]

I've never heard of a GA eating in a restaurant, but I did read about several GA's that were seen picking corn and eating it on the Sabbath, which is even worse because that's like doing actual farm work. Luckily, someone called them on it.

Frankly, it's unbelievable what these GA's think they can get away with sometimes.

Lol....a new King of Snark is born...

[ERayR]

When I hear about the report that GA's were eating at a restaurant on the Sabbath, I remember what happened once to me. I was Priimary President, and I was selling my house on very short notice. On sundays I drove our sometimes foster kids to visit their mother in prison. The realtor told us that the house would not sell without an open house on sunday. And that was the last sunday I'd be able to take the kids. The realtor told us that we couldn't have any signs of humans at the home during the open house. After teaching a sharing time on keeping the sabbath day holy, we took those four children to a local eatery after Sacrament meeting and before our trip of a couple hours. Imagine how utterly chagrinned I was to see two families with the primary children I had just taught about sabbath day observance enter the restaurant. I have never been more chagrined. It was ox in the mire (though it turned out it was more my lack of faith as it sold to someone who had visited it the day before the open house). Sometimes things look bad to outsiders but really are people trying to do their best with the cards they are dealt.

Assuming a GA was eating in a restaurant on the sabbath, one has to assume there was a good reason.

Yep they were hungry and it was a long way home.

[Scott Lloyd]

No. It was probably due to tone deafness caused by too much bubble time.

Hey Stone holm, I get the impression you get to meet General Authorities on occasion.

Just for kicks, if/when that ever happens again, tell the General Authority what you've told us here, that you think he and his colleagues live in a bubble and don't comprehend the real world. Note carefully his reaction, and then come back and report it to us here. I'm eager to hear what happens.

[Kenngo1969]

Lol....a new King of Snark is born...

Oh, I dunno. I think there's a good bit of substance in that alleged snark.

[Scott Lloyd]

Assuming a GA was eating in a restaurant on the sabbath, one has to assume there was a good reason.

That may well be.

Of course, it is also possible that what Tacenda heard the server say actually pertained to General Authorities eating at the Homestead on Saturday, not Sunday. Or maybe the server herself got it wrong. Or the server heard it from somebody who heard it from somebody else and so on back up the chain, where, somewhere along the line, the account got garbled, as in the game of "Chinese whispers" or "telephone" that some of us played as children.

That's the trouble with gossip and rumor. So many times it is difficult-to-impossible to nail down what really happened.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[hearserve]

Hey Stone holm, I get the impression you get to meet General Authorities on occasion.

Just for kicks, if/when that ever happens again, tell the General Authority what you've told us here, that you think he and his colleagues live in a bubble and don't comprehend the real world. Note carefully his reaction, and then come back and report it to us here. I'm eager to hear what happens.

Elder Bruce Carlson of the Seventy provides a weekly briefing for the GAs on events in the world. As he is the recently retired head of the NAtional Reconnaissonce Office, accustomed to briefing the POTUS, I'm assuming they are getting some decent updates on the goings on outside their bubble.

[Scott Lloyd]

Elder Bruce Carlson of the Seventy provides a weekly briefing for the GAs on events in the world. As he is the recently retired head of the NAtional Reconnaissonce Office, accustomed to briefing the POTUS, I'm assuming they are getting some decent updates on the goings on outside their bubble.

I've been reminded just today that President Gordon B. Hinckley, by his own account, read two or three newspapers a day. (He was Church president at the time the decision was made to build City Creek and during much of its construction.)

I'm involved in the business, and on some days, it's all I can do to get through one newspaper.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Bikeemikey]

That may well be.

Of course, it is also possible that what Tacenda heard the server say actually pertained to General Authorities eating at the Homestead on Saturday, not Sunday. Or maybe the server herself got it wrong. Or the server heard it from somebody who heard it from somebody else and so on back up the chain, where, somewhere along the line, the account got garbled, as in the game of "Chinese whispers" or "telephone" that some of us played as children.

That's the trouble with gossip and rumor. So many times it is difficult-to-impossible to nail down what really happened.

Do GA's not eat food on Sunday?

[Scott Lloyd]

Do GA's not eat food on Sunday?

Of course they do.

I even conceded that it's conceivable there may be circumstances when they must eat food provided by a commercial establishment on Sunday.

What's the point of your question?

[Bikeemikey]

Of course they do.

I even conceded that it's conceivable there may be circumstances when they must eat food provided by a commercial establishment on Sunday.

What's the point of your question?

If you've conceded the point then why debate it?

[Bikeemikey]

Of course they do.

I even conceded that it's conceivable there may be circumstances when they must eat food provided by a commercial establishment on Sunday.

What's the point of your question?

Deleted. Duplicate post.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[Scott Lloyd]

If you've conceded the point then why debate it?

I was only wondering why you even raised it, as it was never at issue.

My point is that the report of what the Homestead server allegedly said has all the earmarks of gossip and that one ought to be cautious about the credence once gives it.

Or are you saying that, since a General Authority might conceivably eat at a restaurant on Sunday when there are extenuating circumstances, it's OK for any Church member to do it whenever he/she likes?

Edited July 26, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Bikeemikey]

I was only wondering why you even raised it, as it was never at issue.

My point is that the report of what the Homestead server allegedly said has all the earmarks of gossip and that one ought to be cautious about the credence once gives it.

Or are you saying that, since a General Authority might conceivably eat at a restaurant on Sunday when there are extenuating circumstances, it's OK for any Church member to do it whenever he/she likes?

I'm saying that given you have conceded that it is possible for a GA to eat at the location on a Sunday it seems irrelevant to debate the legitimacy of a story which mentions that a GA eating there on a Sunday.

As to the other question: I don't care what people do on Sunday. Sometimes when I travel I eat out on Sunday. Sometimes i don't. It depends on a whole range of factors.

For someone to make judgements about my life in general, all Mormons in general, or what is permissible for them to do in their personal lives, based on my sunday eating patterns, is the height of idiocy. In my opinion.

[Scott Lloyd]

I'm saying that given you have conceded that it is possible for a GA to eat at the location on a Sunday it seems irrelevant to debate the legitimacy of a story which mentions that a GA eating there on a Sunday.

No, it's not irrelevant. The Homestead is located near the Mormon corridor not far from Church headquarters. Given the location, and given that most of the General Authorities live in or near the Salt Lake area, it's highly unlikely there would be extenuating circumstances requiring a General Authority to eat at the Homestead on a Sunday.

Tacenda seemed to be presenting the rumor as a rationalization for other Church members to eat at restaurants on Sunday whenever they like, regardless of the circumstances.

As to the other question: I don't care what people do on Sunday. Sometimes when I travel I eat out on Sunday. Sometimes i don't. It depends on a whole range of factors.

For someone to make judgements about my life in general, all Mormons in general, or what is permissible for them to do in their personal lives, based on my sunday eating patterns, is the height of idiocy. In my opinion.

I'm not particularly interested in your opinions on whether it's OK for you to eat out on Sunday. My point here is to question the veracity of the story Tacenda gave.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Bikeemikey]

No, it's not irrelevant. The Homestead is located near the Mormon corridor not far from Church headquarters. Given the location, and given that most of the General Authorities live in or near the Salt Lake area, it's highly unlikely there would be extenuating circumstances requiring a General Authority to eat at the Homestead on a Sunday.

Tacenda seemed to be presenting the rumor as a rationalization for other Church members to eat at restaurants on Sunday whenever they like, regardless of the circumstances.

It seems to me that you undercut your attempt to criticize Tacenda's argument by both asserting that it is plausible that a GA's could eat at The Homestead on the Sabbath yet also relying on a criticism of the veracity of the story that claims a GA ate at The Homestead on the Sabbath in an attempt to discredit the rationalization expressed by Tacenda's post.

I think you are running after a Red Herring by even addressing the veracity of the story.

Given that you are have already expressed the possibility of such an event (a GA eating at The Homestead on the Sabbath) simply drop that as a contestable part of the discussion. Sure they could have but that in no way implies permissibility for others as such an event would be based on (what you seem to be referring to as) unique extenuating circumstances.

Also you logic regarding the unliklihood of a GA needing to take advantage of The Homestead on the Sabbath may be a open to a very easy challenge.

Given that most GA's live in or near Salt Lake (the same geographical location as The Homestead) and presumably spend a lot of their time in that same area, it is highly likely that extenuating circumstances would occur during a time when they were in that geographical area. It is highly reasonable to assume that if an extenuating circumstance that required a GA to eat out on the Sabbath were to occur it would likely occur to them during a time when they were in SLC area (as that is where they are most of the time).

Given the number of GA's in SLC it is probably highly likely that there is one eating out on Sunday due to an extenuating circumstance...

I'm not particularly interested in your opinions on whether it's OK for you to eat out on Sunday. My point here is to question the veracity of the story Tacenda gave.

Is your point here to question the veracity of the story she shared?

Or is it to demonstrate that her conclusion is false... namely that a GA doing it is justification for the rest of us doing it?

You actually can't disprove the justification claim even if you do prove that the GA did not eat out on Sunday. This line of argument would need to be infinitely regressive and finally claim that no GA has ever eaten out on Sunday (and you have already conceded the opposite point).

Moreover, you do not need to engage in the evidence of a GA eating out on the Sabbath to undercut the justification argument (that you state Tanceda has proposed). You simply go after the link between one unique action by a GA and other unique actions by other members.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[Stone holm]

Hey Stone holm, I get the impression you get to meet General Authorities on occasion.

Just for kicks, if/when that ever happens again, tell the General Authority what you've told us here, that you think he and his colleagues live in a bubble and don't comprehend the real world. Note carefully his reaction, and then come back and report it to us here. I'm eager to hear what happens.

Nawh, that was back in the time when the dinosaurs still roamed the Earth and apostles and other GAs came to Stake Conferences. Now I try to avoid Stake Conference if possible, the last Stake Conference I attended that had a GA was when Dallin Oakes came and made an offensive anti-gay slur against Vermonters while he continually hitched up his pants like a Southern politician. Have decided that I could live with out that kind of stuff in my life. So I watch them on the net that way I can click them off if they are too boring or go off the rails. The Church is true, but it is not necessary to put GAs on some kind of pedestal and we have earnestly strived to make sure that the GAs are insulated from comments or criticisms, so they can travel in their happy little bubbles. That's how you get a Swedish 70 floating around Europe for years and not doing even a modicum of studying so that he could reach a real understanding of the Gospel, and then all of a sudden his bubble burst and out the door he goes.

[Deborah]

Good grief. Grasping at straws. Yes, GA's sometimes eat out. After all they travel a lot and are away from home. In fact I've eaten out on Sunday when on road trips. I'm thankful there are people willing to work to serve those in such situations. My son once asked me when I was visiting to go to the grocery store to get something on Sunday for dinner. He said if you're on vacation not shopping on the Sabbath doesn't apply. I laughed at him and told him no. They ended up borrowing the something from a neighbor. On the other hand I have gone to the store on Sunday to get some medicine or something else for a sick child. The point is what is the purpose of doing such things. The Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath.

[Calm]

Elder Bruce Carlson of the Seventy provides a weekly briefing for the GAs on events in the world. As he is the recently retired head of the NAtional Reconnaissonce Office, accustomed to briefing the POTUS, I'm assuming they are getting some decent updates on the goings on outside their bubble.

Nice tidbit.

[Calm]

No, it's not irrelevant. The Homestead is located near the Mormon corridor not far from Church headquarters. Given the location, and given that most of the General Authorities live in or near the Salt Lake area, it's highly unlikely there would be extenuating circumstances requiring a General Authority to eat at the Homestead on a Sunday.

Don't they have to attend meetings often all day on a Sunday, meeting with multiple leaders as well as attending multiple Sacrament meetings? If so, they may not have time to go home to eat between meetings and may be too polite to insist that someone feed them who is also probably scrambling to get things and people organized for their particular meetings.

[Bikeemikey]

Good grief. Grasping at straws. Yes, GA's sometimes eat out. After all they travel a lot and are away from home. In fact I've eaten out on Sunday when on road trips. I'm thankful there are people willing to work to serve those in such situations. My son once asked me when I was visiting to go to the grocery store to get something on Sunday for dinner. He said if you're on vacation not shopping on the Sabbath doesn't apply. I laughed at him and told him no. They ended up borrowing the something from a neighbor. On the other hand I have gone to the store on Sunday to get some medicine or something else for a sick child. The point is what is the purpose of doing such things. The Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath.

Great thoughts.

[Calm]

Moreover, you do not need to engage in the evidence of a GA eating out on the Sabbath to undercut the justification argument (that you state Tanceda has proposed). You simply go after the link between one unique action by a GA and other unique actions by other members.

I think the way Tacenda presented the info pushed a few buttons. It did mine, but since someone else responded I felt no need.

One can gossip as easily with the truth as with out. What makes the difference between gossip and simple presentation of experience is the purpose behind it. I don't think Tacenda was all that careful with her phrasing, IIRC.

[Bikeemikey]

Don't they have to attend meetings often all day on a Sunday, meeting with multiple leaders as well as attending multiple Sacrament meetings? If so, they may not have time to go home to eat between meetings and may be too polite to insist that someone feed them who is also probably scrambling to get things and people organized for their particular meetings.

Scott lloyd has already conceded that a GA may eat out on Sundays... he's going to agree with you... he is still got a be in his bonnet about proving a specific instance of this already permissible action false though...

Go figure.

[Calm]

we have earnestly strived to make sure that the GAs are insulated from comments or criticisms, so they can travel in their happy little bubbles.

Funny, most often what I've heard from church leaders preparing for visits from 'higher ups' was an eagerness to be able to get some of their wisdom in dealing with local problems.