Flds Perspective On The Prophet

[Damien the Leper]

From FLDS 101:

What is the role of the prophet in the FLDS? Let’s take look at Warren Jeffs' teachings on the subject.

1. The prophet is God on earth to the people. “Each Prophet stands as God to the people. When he speaks, it is the Lord speaking.” “ When you're in the presence of our prophet, you're in the presence of God.” “The prophet is God with us and God over us. To obey the prophet is to obey God.” (WSJ 12/26/95, 1/4/96, 11/20/95) HOGWASH
   
2. The prophet owns the people. “Man actually belongs to [the] prophet, willing to do what is directed.” HOGWASH
   
3. The prophet is the most powerful person on earth. “We know the man who has the greatest power on earth. At the command of President Jeffs, he can control the weather. He can cause earthquakes to come. He can cause our enemies to be destroyed. He will not do it unless the Lord tells him, and he will not do it unless we are worthy.” (WSJ 1/16/96) HOGWASH
   
4. The prophet decides who can enter heaven. “You only get to heaven through the living prophet in your time. Because of this great power President Jeffs holds, he is everything to us. All your happiness comes through him.” (WSJ 11/20/95) HOGWASH
   
5. The prophet does not make mistakes. “He sets a perfect example and you can feel his spirit if you're praying.” “The one man - the prophet - will never teach you wrong. He will always lead you right.” "The prophet doesn't make mistakes as far as marriages are concerned. . . .If ever a marriage fails, it's not the prophet's fault. It's the people who lived it wrong if their marriage failed." (WSJ 1/4/96, 4/2/96) MAJOR HOGWASH!!
   
6. The prophet’s decisions are always fulfilled. “But when. . . the prophet commands, there are angels round about him who will go and do as he commands, as the Lord inspires that man. The heavenly beings around President Jeffs, when he says a prayer and speaks, they go and make sure it happens because the Lord has promised him that when he blesses a person, that person will be blessed if they are obedient.” (WSJ 1/29/96) HOGWASH
   
7. The prophet is in constant communication with God. “The Lord puts something inside the prophet - enough of His spirit so that prophet can talk with Heavenly Father, even while he thinks.” “The Lord speaks in the prophet's mind. His spirit is always there in the prophet's mind). The prophet just thinks a prayer and the Lord's spirit puts the words in his thoughts. He talks with the Lord in that way.” (WSJ 12/26/95) HOGWASH
   
8. The prophet has a special gift of discernment to know who has sinned. “I see many of you go through the line on Sunday, to shake his hand. After meeting, sometimes I've sat with father, and he starts naming a few families. He says, ‘This person or these children have a good look in their eye and I feel a good spirit.’ Others I have heard him say, ‘That family - those children, are dark. They don't have a good spirit, a good feel, a good look in their eye.’ Did you know that's what is happening when you are shaking his hand? He is feeling your spirit. Now, shake his hand and look him in the eye, but if you feel guilty about something, you'll have a hard time doing it, or if you look him in the eye, your spirit will be felt by him, that you've been disobedient.” (WSJ 1/4/96) HOGWASH
   
9. The prophet is the only one who can receive revelation for the people and has the right to rule the people in all areas of their lives. The early FLDS prophets taught their people that they had the right to receive personal revelation from God for their lives. Recent FLDS leaders changed this teaching. Revelation for individual lives only comes through the prophet. He is the one who will reveal whom they should marry. (See Arranged Marriages). He will be the one to determine a person’s occupation in life. Parents can receive inspiration for their family, but revelation will come through the prophet. NOT AN OUNCE OF TRUTH TO THIS
   “That one man is as God over the people and has the right to rule in all areas of life”
   “No father, can go off and make up his own rules. For him to stay a faithful father, he must live the prophet's rules. Nobody can be their own big boss and get to heaven, right up to our Savior, direct. You only get to heaven through the living prophet in your time. Because of this great power President Jeffs holds, he is everything to us.” (WSJ 11/20/95) HOGWASH
   “The Lord tells us if we do what He says, He is bound to bless us. . . . How do you know what He says? It is called revelation. The Lord speaks through His prophet. When your parents tell you to do something, they are prayerful. They have inspiration what you should do. . . . For you to be called an obedient person, you must listen to those over you. Every blessing you will ever get in priesthood, you must listen to those over you and do as they direct, not you commanding them.” (WSJ 1/4/96) HOGWASH
   An FLDS member explained. “You see, in the FLDS, as a loyal young man, you are to check in with the Prophet and be told what to do and become (profession wise). In the past, the young men could get a building lot and build themselves a house. This gave them something to work towards, a goal, an identity, a place to raise a family. Under Warren, they are to simply turn in all their money over to the Prophet, and they may get a house, or a trailer, or who knows what." HOGWASH
   

There are a couple important rules to follow in obeying the prophet.

1. Do not alter an anyway the prophet’s counsel. “You cannot change what the prophet says and think you're obeying.” (WSJ 1/4/96) HOGWASH
   
2. You must not recommend things to the prophet. If you do, it will be your own ideas, not revelation from the Lord. HOGWASH
   
3. Answers to prayer come through the prophet. You must have a prayer in you heart when you meet with the prophet. “when a person prays, the Lord answers them through the prophet I want you to believe that when you go to President Jeffs with a prayer in your heart, the Lord talks to you, through him. His word is the word of God.” (WSJ 2/5/96) HOGWASH
   

What are the penalties for not obeying the prophet? Under LeRoy Johnson, the disobedient were cared for and given help. Under Rulon Jeffs the disobedient were tolerated. Under Warren Jeffs the disobedient were kicked out of the Church. Here is what Warren Jeffs taught would happen to those who disobeyed the prophet.

1. Death. “We should consider any disobedience to the prophet as though it was death.” “Truly, rebellion against the prophet is death.” “Obey the prophet when he speaks and you'll be blessed. Disobey him and it is death.” (WSJ 12/26/95, 12/21/95) HOGWASH
   
2. You will start acting like a gentile. “If you forget what the prophet says and don't turn to him and don't love him, you will turn to the world - automatically, it will happen.” (See Gentiles). (WSJ 12/21/95) HOGWASH
   
3. You will become an apostate. “An apostate is a person that turns against the prophet. They turn away from him at first then they turn to fight him in the end. People who criticize the prophet will eventually turn against him.” To became an apostate is worse than death. (See Apostates.) (WSJ 4/2/96) HOGWASH
   
4. You will lose your Church membership and lose your family. An FLDS member explained, “A man loses the Priesthood by being morally unclean, or doubting the prophet in the smallest detail. Loyalty to the Prophet has now become more important than anything else, even treating others with love and respect.” HOGWASH
   

For the FLDS today, everything flows through the prophet. A chain of obedience exists. The man must obey the prophet. The woman must obey the husband as he obeys the prophet. If a woman disobeys her husband, she is disobeying the prophet, and disobeying God. An FLDS member explained: “When it comes to choices you have to choose to do what the prophet wants even if you are sent to prison. The thing here is obedience. We’re obedient to our prophet and in turn our wives and children are obedient to us.”

A former FLDS member explains “THERE IS NO LOVE. The only motivation out there is FEAR. They live in fear of having all that they hold dear removed from them. They live in fear of going to hell because they do not implicitly obey the fiendish dictates of a man in a desperate power struggle, who just can't seem to get enough.”

It is suprising how far off the FLDS perception of a prophet is. They don't even come close to what is found in the LDS canon or to any kind of teaching about a prophet from JS to present. This is control and fear tactics at some of their worse!

[bluebell]

Creepy and very sad.

[Calm]

What are the penalties for not obeying the prophet? Under LeRoy Johnson, the disobedient were cared for and given help. Under Rulon Jeffs the disobedient were tolerated. Under Warren Jeffs the disobedient were kicked out of the Church. Here is what Warren Jeffs taught would happen to those who disobeyed the prophet.....

It is suprising how far off the FLDS perception of a prophet is. They don't even come close to what is found in the LDS canon or to any kind of teaching about a prophet from JS to present. This is control and fear tactics at some of their worse!

This appears to be less about the FLDS faith and more about Warren Jeffs if the above is accurate.

[Damien the Leper]

This appears to be less about the FLDS faith and more about Warren Jeffs if the above is accurate.

I agree. The "one man rule", from what I've read about their history, was exclusively mandated by Warren. His father, Rulon, didn't appear to be as stringent or self-idolatrous.

[Tacenda]

AND NOW YOU KNOW WHY THESE LITTLE ONES NEED TO GET OUT OF TEXAS. IT'S CRIMINAL, THAT NOTHING IS BEING DONE. PEOPLE WILL REGRET THE DAY THOSE KIDS WERE LET BACK IN THAT HELLISH LIFE.

[ERayR]

AND NOW YOU KNOW WHY THESE LITTLE ONES NEED TO GET OUT OF TEXAS. IT'S CRIMINAL, THAT NOTHING IS BEING DONE. PEOPLE WILL REGRET THE DAY THOSE KIDS WERE LET BACK IN THAT HELLISH LIFE.

I don't know which frightens me more Warren Jeff's trampling of agency of the FLDS or your suggestion to trample the constitution. The sad thing is if it had been handled correctly the kids, that needed help, could have been helped. Now the TCPS have botched it and made it very difficult to proceed.

[Senator]

Hey, anyone know what happened to cinepro's post?

[BookofMormonLuvr]

Hey, anyone know what happened to cinepro's post?

Good question.

[BookofMormonLuvr]

The best way to deal with this is to decriminalize polygamy and apologize for the Short Creek raids of yesteryear- thus taking away the fear of prosecution for the practice that has been instilled in them. Chasing them from town to town, and state to state, only confirms to them their link to the early church and is evidence, to them, of the righteousness of their path.

[tyler90az]

From FLDS 101:

It is suprising how far off the FLDS perception of a prophet is. They don't even come close to what is found in the LDS canon or to any kind of teaching about a prophet from JS to present. This is control and fear tactics at some of their worse!

It is really not that much different at all. The only difference is 5, 4, 9 and then 3 of the second. Control, fear and prosperity all religious tactics. I do not mean that in a bad way either. Control, fear and blessings could be a good thing if used by tthe right leader and an A+ follower.

The next time you use criminals to describe the religious beliefs of other posters you will be removed from the board. Last warning.

[Tacenda]

The best way to deal with this is to decriminalize polygamy and apologize for the Short Creek raids of yesteryear- thus taking away the fear of prosecution for the practice that has been instilled in them. Chasing them from town to town, and state to state, only confirms to them their link to the early church and is evidence, to them, of the righteousness of their path.

My greatest fear, that those children will grow up just like him, and so on and so on. Their leader is anti constitution, this group may even venture out and grab one of your daughters, they do have missionaries that come after the girls. I do believe in the constitution very much, ERayR is wrong about that. The constitution is for the people, this FLDS group's leader doesn't believe in the constitution, to them the government is the enemy, and they want to milk it for everything they can, I think they say bleed the beast (welfare fraud) or something like that. I don't want to break the law, or trample on this countries freedom of religion, but how do we save these generations? Maybe it'll have to take an act of God to do it.

[Lightbearer]

It is really not that much different at all. The only difference is 5, 4, 9 and then 3 of the second. Control, fear and prosperity all religious tactics. I do not mean that in a bad way either. Control, fear and blessings could be a good thing if used by tthe right leader and an A+ follower.

The next time you use criminals to describe the religious beliefs of other posters you will be removed from the board. Last warning.

Obviously you are either not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or if so you have a perverted view of what the Church teaches. Fear is not a factor to a true Latter-day Saints neither is force. In fact the following points that out rather plainly:

"No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile— Reproving betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then showing forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved, lest he esteem thee to be his enemy; That he may know that thy faithfulness is stronger than the cords of death. Let thy bowels also be full of charity towards all men, and to the household of faith, and let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly; then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God; and the doctrine of the priesthood shall distil upon thy soul as the dews from heaven. The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever." (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 121:41-46)

That is how the Gospel is to be administered.

[tyler90az]

It is really not that much different at all. The only difference is 5, 4, 9 and then 3 of the second. Control, fear and prosperity all religious tactics. I do not mean that in a bad way either. Control, fear and blessings could be a good thing if used by tthe right leader and an A+ follower.

The next time you use criminals to describe the religious beliefs of other posters you will be removed from the board. Last warning.

You are a little defensive to assume that is what I was doing. Juste breathe and calm down I am not attacking your religion. If you do not value diversity of opinion kick me. I just do not understand what the point of this forum is if you do not. What do you want to do sing koombiah and affirm each other's beliefs all day. That would be rather pointless.

I am calmly removing you from the thread while breathing.

[tyler90az]

Obviously you are either not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or if so you have a perverted view of what the Church teaches. Fear is not a factor to a true Latter-day Saints neither is force. In fact the following points that out rather plainly:

That is how the Gospel is to be administered.

You are right, that is the thing I like about the Mormon Church it is blessings based rather then fear based.

[Avatar4321]

Warren is supposed to be the most powerful man on earth? So why is he still sitting in prison?

[Thinking]

Warren is supposed to be the most powerful man on earth? So why is he still sitting in prison?

There is a disclaimer.

“We know the man who has the greatest power on earth. At the command of President Jeffs, he can control the weather. He can cause earthquakes to come. He can cause our enemies to be destroyed. He will not do it unless the Lord tells him, and he will not do it unless we are worthy.”

[Tacenda]

You are a little defensive to assume that is what I was doing. Juste breathe and calm down I am not attacking your religion. If you do not value diversity of opinion kick me. I just do not understand what the point of this forum is if you do not. What do you want to do sing koombiah and affirm each other's beliefs all day. That would be rather pointless.

I am calmly removing you from the thread while breathing.

What happened to the Tyler we all know? Did an alien step in? No, must not be that. He's human and Mormon, and we can all stick together during our ups and downs.

[Tacenda]

moved it to another thread

Edited July 7, 2013 by Tacenda

[cinepro]

Hey, anyone know what happened to cinepro's post?

You can find it

[Tacenda]

I don't know which frightens me more Warren Jeff's trampling of agency of the FLDS or your suggestion to trample the constitution. The sad thing is if it had been handled correctly the kids, that needed help, could have been helped. Now the TCPS have botched it and made it very difficult to proceed.

Watch this video and you'll see that inside the temple, there were mothers watching on as Warren abused the girls. Those same moms and fathers are raising those kids in Texas right now! Wouldn't this alone be enough evidence to go in there again? But handle it right this time? Just by listening to the tapes alone is enough reason to get these children out. Yes ,they will need rehabilitating, as will these poor women, men too. Until Warren Jeffs dies, this will continue. This so insidious and will continue on and on, this is the fruit of polygamy I'm afraid.

[Calm]

this is the fruit of polygamy I'm afraid.

If it was, it would be much more widespread among polygamists. From what I've heard, this didn't start happening until Warren Jeffs gained control.

And if polygamy wasn't against the law, individuals who are abused might be more willing to employ the legal system. Instead they get frightened into thinking they will be punished themselves or separated from their families completely if they report anything.

And I have to agree with ERayR. It may be in this one case that it would be worth it to go against the law and violate these people's rights (though we've seen how successful that was) and go to whatever extreme is necessary to rescue them, but once that road has been crossed, once that move has been justified, it can then be used to justify actions against others where the need is not so extreme and the harm done much more than any long term benefit.

Edited July 13, 2013 by calmoriah

[Damien the Leper]

I would have gone with the Apostolic United Brethren in Montana or Winston Blackmore in Canada over Jeffs. His father Rulon would never have gone along with his son's mess.

[Programmer]

... this is the fruit of polygamy I'm afraid.

Not quite correct. This is the fruit of their church and their following Warren Jeffs.

Polygamy was practiced by the mainstream LDS church publicly from 1850 until what 1890 for 40 years? There was no such bad fruit as this garbage. In that FLDS church (Major case of identity theft btw) it's more about owning and dominating women than about religion. The religion thing is simply a vehicle to mind control their masses.

It would be nice to find a legal way to break them up again and a legal way to get those kids free. I wish Governor Perry would step up to the plate in Texas and do something.

[halconero]

I would have gone with the Apostolic United Brethren in Montana or Winston Blackmore in Canada over Jeffs. His father Rulon would never have gone along with his son's mess.

I had lunch sitting at the table across from Winston about two days ago. My best friend is his nephew. His grandfather (my friend's) is Winston's father but his grandmother (who was the second wife) left the group and and rejoined the Church (she had been excommunicated when she had left to start the group.

Winston is an odd fellow. Quiet, and apt to say some strange things. He generally isn't a mean guy though. He's helped out in the community (Bountiful is about 15 minutes outside of the main town of Creston, BC) a couple times. Some of his wives hold jobs in secular businesses in town and his kids dress pretty normally and have non-member friends. In the words of his own brother, my friend's dad, "That wacky brother of mine will help you in a pinch, is pretty decent at playing defense in hockey, but man is he one weird dude."

[halconero]

My greatest fear, that those children will grow up just like him, and so on and so on. Their leader is anti constitution, this group may even venture out and grab one of your daughters, they do have missionaries that come after the girls. I do believe in the constitution very much, ERayR is wrong about that. The constitution is for the people, this FLDS group's leader doesn't believe in the constitution, to them the government is the enemy, and they want to milk it for everything they can, I think they say bleed the beast (welfare fraud) or something like that. I don't want to break the law, or trample on this countries freedom of religion, but how do we save these generations? Maybe it'll have to take an act of God to do it.

By being open to them and loving them as much as we can.

It seems weird, but it's an approach I've seen work first hand. Bountiful, BC, the polygamous group near my place, used to be quite insular. The woman would come into town to get groceries and not even make eye contact with you. Only the men would talk, and the dress was something right out of the 1800's. Education was little valued.

Some folks in town began to offer nursing, teaching and other forms of education to them. With that training they began to seek jobs across town. My dad, an elementary school principal, took the attitude that if they were qualified there was no reason to deny them employment, and hired a few of them, pioneer dress and all, as teachers and teachers' assistants at the school.

With that employment came associations and friendships. Those friendships and associations with others created more trust among the community. Some of the more liberal minded members of bountiful allowed their children to pursue their own styles of dress and decide their own romantic relationships. They began enrolling their kids in the public elementary schools, especially my dad's "the other mormon bishop" because they knew they could trust him to protect their kids from being bullied. He took the view that kids were kids no matter what, and they all needed to be educated.

Because they trusted him, when a couple who had left the group decided to get legally married (they had been "sealed" before, but never legally married) they asked if he could do it. About 50% of those who attended the wedding were from the group, and many expressed thanks to my dad for doing it, saying "better you than anyone else."

There will always be those who are insular, domineering, and controlling. There still are some here in BC. But if you can associate with someone on a regular basis (and this applies to all humans), treat them with kindness and love, and give them all the opportunities to progress financially, socially and morally, barriers will be broken down.

Arrests, prosecution and other legal action will do less to help the people there then good ole fashion friendship will.