Flds Perspective On The Prophet

[Tacenda]

Halcenero I agree wholeheartedly. And believe it or not , my nephew through marriage, came from a polygamous background and grew up in years before Warren Jeffs, where he said he had a good childhood and he left the religion and joined ours.

I guess I should narrow it down to just the followers of Jeffs, or narrow it down to mainly people in the compound getting helped by the law, don't know. But you're right, the more they see that outsiders aren't evil, like they're told, it can change. That's the act of God part I guess.

The compound people have me worried though. I picture Warren giving up on his "end of world" prophecies and just telling them to end it themselves, that's my fear.

So did you ever hear or read about the trafficking of young girls back and forth from Canada? I thought the leaders, possibly Winston, might have been apart of it, I'll check.

Btw, every town needs people like your dad and the others that reached out in love, thanks for sharing, it gives me hope.

ETA: Here is an article about the trafficking, it's still up in the air apparently. http://www.cbc.ca/ne...estigation.html

Also, those that mention that polygamy isn't bad fruit, I'd like to offer a quote by Zina Huntington Jacobs, who lived in the earlier polygamy phase that JS started, not Jeffs or FLDS. I don't think God ever wanted it, in my personal opinion.

C/P from "A Thoughtful Faith" FB post..... Zina Huntington Jacobs, plural wife of Joseph smith and later of Brigham Young, all the while married to Henry Jacobs, commented later in life that women in polygamous relationships “expect too much attention from the husband and . . . become sullen and morose. . . .” She explained that “a successful polygamous wife must regard her husband with indifference, and with no other feeling than that of reverence, for love we regard as a false sentiment; a feeling which should have no existence in polygamy.”

Me: This isn't what would seem to be a healthy way to marry.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Tacenda

[Calm]

C/P from "A Thoughtful Faith" FB post..... Zina Huntington Jacobs, plural wife of Joseph smith and later of Brigham Young, all the while married to Henry Jacobs, commented later in life that women in polygamous relationships “expect too much attention from the husband and . . . become sullen and morose. . . .” She explained that “a successful polygamous wife must regard her husband with indifference, and with no other feeling than that of reverence, for love we regard as a false sentiment; a feeling which should have no existence in polygamy.”

Me: This isn't what would seem to be a healthy way to marry.

And I have a great, great (etc?)...grandmother that stated plural marriage is what gave her the opportunity to learn to love as God loves and was the best method given to us by God to do so. Edited July 14, 2013 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

http://www.kutv.com/.../vid_5852.shtml

Well, it looks as if Warren Jeffs is now supposedly commanding that only certain men can father children in the group and now he has ordered that every girl, 12 and up, needs to get pregnant in order to populate the group. And it's not just in Texas but in Utah/Colorado. The Utah authorities are on the look out. Let's see how well a job they do on this one. Maybe outsiders will finally see the need that there are unfit parents, enough to save some of these children. These parents have no problem abandoning their children if the children leave the faith, but woe for the children if the parents aren't in their lives. Actually, I don't like that the parent is separated for good, but for a time while they get their act together and quit the abuse, then be reunited.

[ERayR]

http://www.kutv.com/.../vid_5852.shtml

Well, it looks as if Warren Jeffs is now supposedly commanding that only certain men can father children in the group and now he has ordered that every girl, 12 and up, needs to get pregnant in order to populate the group. And it's not just in Texas but in Utah/Colorado. The Utah authorities are on the look out. Let's see how well a job they do on this one. Maybe outsiders will finally see the need that there are unfit parents, enough to save some of these children. These parents have no problem abandoning their children if the children leave the faith, but woe for the children if the parents aren't in their lives. Actually, I don't like that the parent is separated for good, but for a time while they get their act together and quit the abuse, then be reunited.

Contrary to what you may think I really do hope they get this guy, and those doing his bidding, shut down. I think it is appalling for him to command that twelve year old girls need to be having babies. But please let it be done correctly so that it won't trample the constitution and so that it can be effective and not be tossed on constitutional grounds.

[Damien the Leper]

This disaster is probably why polygamy should have never been introduced and allowed to be the epidemic that it has become. Perhaps polygamy from a secular perspective would be a much more righteous and appropriate choice. It is appallingly clear that churches, no matter how well-meaning they may be, should not be the authorities and arbiters of marital and sexual ethics.

[Calm]

This disaster is probably why polygamy should have never been introduced and allowed to be the epidemic that it has become.

One could as easily say this is why polygamy never should have been outlawed.

[Ahab]

...this is the fruit of polygamy I'm afraid.

Polygamy done wrong, more like it. There is a good way to live in polygamy, and there are many bad ways, and while the good way is different than monogamy it can still be a good basis for good marriage relationships where everyone loves each other without anyone involved being unduly selfish or jealous or living in any kind of sin in any way.

[ERayR]

[media=]

this is the fruit of polygamy I'm afraid.

No this is not the fruit of polygamy. This is the fruit of the abuse of power. Please just place the blame where it belongs. The fruit of polygamy is the Hinkleys, the Smiths, The Kimballs and other stalwart leaders that have dedicated their lives to service in the church.

Edited July 17, 2013 by ERayR

[Damien the Leper]

One could as easily say this is why polygamy never should have been outlawed.

I suppose. But polygamy abuse dates to the time of JS. Considering the "notion" that polygamy in the modern church's perspective is that one woman can only be sealed to one man but a man may be sealed to many women. Any man in the church who was married to or sealed to a woman whose husband was still living is a violation. That is unless somewhere along the way the rules were changed. If the rules were changed then shame on those making up the rules as it was not God and it would be heretical and disingenuous to accuse God of such.

[ERayR]

I suppose. But polygamy abuse dates to the time of JS. Considering the "notion" that polygamy in the modern church's perspective is that one woman can only be sealed to one man but a man may be sealed to many women. Any man in the church who was married to or sealed to a woman whose husband was still living is a violation. That is unless somewhere along the way the rules were changed. If the rules were changed then shame on those making up the rules as it was not God and it would be heretical and disingenuous to accuse God of such.

I bring you to the abuses of monogamy. Just as insidious and prevalent as the abuses of polygamy. It is not the polygamy nor the monogamy that is at fault. It is the misuse of those principles that is the problem.

[Calm]

I suppose. But polygamy abuse dates to the time of JS.

And monogamy abuse dates a whole lot earlier.

Humans are involved, abuse will happen (shame on us human for doing it, but that is the way the world is set up and with all the inherent problems involved, I think it wisdom that it was).

[Damien the Leper]

I bring you to the abuses of monogamy. Just as insidious and prevalent as the abuses of polygamy. It is not the polygamy nor the monogamy that is at fault. It is the misuse of those principles that is the problem.

And monogamy abuse dates a whole lot earlier.

Humans are involved, abuse will happen (shame on us human for doing it, but that is the way the world is set up and with all the inherent problems involved, I think it wisdom that it was).

First, I think you both misunderstand me. I'm not condemning polygamy at all. I'm disagreeing with the abuses that are evident throughout history and modernly. Also, we're not talking about monogamy. Polygamy was not and is not a cure for monogamy abuses or marital issues such as a husband dying and the wife having to take care of the children.

[bluebell]

One could as easily say this is why polygamy never should have been outlawed.

Exactly. If polygamy had never been declared illegal, polygamists wouldn't have to develop incredibly insular communities to keep law enforcement at bay. Without all the secrecy, it would be much easier for abuse victims to seek help, and much harder for the abuse to happen in the first place. It also would have likely kept someone like Jeffs from ever gaining the amount of power that he has right now. The "us vs. them" mentality that the laws have created have helped evil men hold sway over otherwise good people.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Exactly. If polygamy had never been declared illegal, polygamists wouldn't have to develop incredibly insular communities to keep law enforcement at bay. Without all the secrecy, it would be much easier for abuse victims to seek help, and much harder for the abuse to happen in the first place. It also would have likely kept someone like Jeffs from ever gaining the amount of power that he has right now. The "us vs. them" mentality that the laws have created have helped evil men hold sway over otherwise good people.

Lowsy Federal Government.

[Calm]

Polygamy was not and is not a cure for monogamy abuses or marital issues such as a husband dying and the wife having to take care of the children.

My goodness no, just saying that human marriages of whatever type involve abusive situations. It is something that is inherent to humans, not to a particular form of marriage imo.

[Calm]

Exactly. If polygamy had never been declared illegal, polygamists wouldn't have to develop incredibly insular communities to keep law enforcement at bay. Without all the secrecy, it would be much easier for abuse victims to seek help, and much harder for the abuse to happen in the first place. It also would have likely kept someone like Jeffs from ever gaining the amount of power that he has right now. The "us vs. them" mentality that the laws have created have helped evil men hold sway over otherwise good people.

This echos my thoughts exactly.

[ERayR]

First, I think you both misunderstand me. I'm not condemning polygamy at all. I'm disagreeing with the abuses that are evident throughout history and modernly. Also, we're not talking about monogamy. Polygamy was not and is not a cure for monogamy abuses or marital issues such as a husband dying and the wife having to take care of the children.

No, I understand you very well. I think you misunderstand me. I was not advocating polygamy in any way and especially not as a way to cure the abuses of monogamy. What I was saying is the abuses in both do not lie with the separate systems of marriage but are in the participants themselves, not in the systems.

[Damien the Leper]

No, I understand you very well. I think you misunderstand me. I was not advocating polygamy in any way and especially not as a way to cure the abuses of monogamy. What I was saying is the abuses in both do not lie with the separate systems of marriage but are in the participants themselves, not in the systems.

I'm actually in 100% agreement with you, ERayR. I don't believe that either polygamy or monogamy are inherently bad. However, the abuses tend to begin with those who introduce them into the public life of faith communities. There has never been a pure polygamous practice in Christian communities. It has always begun with abuse and perpetuates the abuse.

[Tacenda]

I'm actually in 100% agreement with you, ERayR. I don't believe that either polygamy or monogamy are inherently bad. However, the abuses tend to begin with those who introduce them into the public life of faith communities. There has never been a pure polygamous practice in Christian communities. It has always begun with abuse and perpetuates the abuse.

I don't think religion should ever command polygamy in the name of God. That is the epitome of taking the Lord's name in vain.