The Mystery Of Eve

[Stone holm]

Like Heavenly Mother, we seem to know more about Adam than we do about Eve. The Genesis account after portraying Adam as throwing Eve under the bus over the whole temptation thing pretty much dismisses her. We as Mormons hold her much higher in our esteem for her wisdom and understanding, but we leave a lot of questions unanswered as well. Does anyone here have answers, do we even know the questions?

[3DOP]

Even if you do not draw the same conclusions about Eve as Catholics do, it might be helpful to reflect on Eve's counterpart. St. Irenaeus, who Mormons admire for his words on the subject of deification, refers to Mary as, "the Second Eve". There are many interesting parallels between these two women who are both in different respects, "Mother of all the Living". I need to leave for Mass in about five minutes, but maybe I'll expand on the theme in the afternoon.

3DOP

[Questing Beast]

Women seldom even get a name, much less "top billing". It's because "it's a man's world" in the venue of ancient scripture....

[volgadon]

Even if you do not draw the same conclusions about Eve as Catholics do, it might be helpful to reflect on Eve's counterpart. St. Irenaeus, who Mormons admire for his words on the subject of deification, refers to Mary as, "the Second Eve". There are many interesting parallels between these two women who are both in different respects, "Mother of all the Living". I need to leave for Mass in about five minutes, but maybe I'll expand on the theme in the afternoon.

3DOP

For any LDS interested in a decent overview of what 3DOP is saying, I suggest Jaroslav Pelikan's book on Mary.

[rpn]

Hey, she was busy setting up a household and populating the world. Give the lady a break!

[Bikeemikey]

Hey, she was busy setting up a household and populating the world. Give the lady a break!

Just busy doing stuff not worth recording for later generations.

[Ron Beron]

Like Heavenly Mother, we seem to know more about Adam than we do about Eve. The Genesis account after portraying Adam as throwing Eve under the bus over the whole temptation thing pretty much dismisses her. We as Mormons hold her much higher in our esteem for her wisdom and understanding, but we leave a lot of questions unanswered as well. Does anyone here have answers, do we even know the questions?

Actually, I think the role of Eve is more substantial than that of Adam. In the ancient world Adam was the created while Eve, considered a goddess herself, was the creator. I would think that the patri-lineal Hebrews would have sublimated her role considerably. While she has been criticized much, Marija Gimbutas spoke of this rejection of female deities in favor of the more aggressive male.

[strappinglad]

Just busy doing stuff not worth recording for later generations.

You should remember that the vast, vast majority of humans who ever lived , have no record of their individual contributions to civilization. Records are the preserve of the literate and the powerful, ( and the winners ).

[Tacenda]

You should remember that the vast, vast majority of humans who ever lived , have no record of their individual contributions to civilization. Records are the preserve of the literate and the powerful, ( and the winners ).

This makes me think of the scripture in the NT against having geneologies. This because the Saviour was on the earth, and the OT laws no longer applied. What do you think, is there more to this, is there a scripture in the NT that counters it? This one always gets my curiosity up.

[volgadon]

This makes me think of the scripture in the NT against having geneologies. This because the Saviour was on the earth, and the OT laws no longer applied. What do you think, is there more to this, is there a scripture in the NT that counters it? This one always gets my curiosity up.

Matthew 1.

[volgadon]

Matthew 1.

Anyway, the longer answer is that there is more to this. Paul is refering to specific individuals and their erroneous, divisive teachings. Paul doesn't give us quite enough information, but it seems that they were involved in teaching aspects of the Jewish law combined with stories weaved around the genealogies of the Bible.

[strappinglad]

There may have also been a connection to compiling genealogies sort of like a person today wants a heritage crest from the Kings of England to show their pride in the family and lord it over others who do not have such a background.

[Stone holm]

Just busy doing stuff not worth recording for later generations.

Wow. Somehow I doubt that. I suspect it might have had more to do with who was doing the recording, and what records were preserved. In any event, there is something to be said about the impact this has had on religious culture arising from eras when brute strength was of extreme importance to survival. Makes one wonder how much of our modern thinking is derived from the importance of testosterone in much of early civilisation.

[canard78]

Actually, I think the role of Eve is more substantial than that of Adam. In the ancient world Adam was the created while Eve, considered a goddess herself, was the creator. I would think that the patri-lineal Hebrews would have sublimated her role considerably. While she has been criticized much, Marija Gimbutas spoke of this rejection of female deities in favor of the more aggressive male.

I can't remember where I read it. It was somewhere on a fairlds article, but some of the ancient non-biblical writings have echoes of temple conversations and more information (and praise) for Eve. Anyone know what I'm talking about? I've lost the reference. It was North African or Arabian.

The Chinese 'Eve' (Nuwa) is much more famous and revered than their version of 'Adam' (Fuxi).

[3DOP]

stoneholm

In any event, there is something to be said about the impact this has had on religious culture arising from eras when brute strength was of extreme importance to survival. Makes one wonder how much of our modern thinking is derived from the importance of testosterone in much of early civilisation.

3DOP

What era are you talking about? Brute strength? Brute strength didn't make Christianity triumph over paganism. Sts. Felicitas, Perpetua, Agatha, Lucy, Agnes, Cecilia, and Anastasia are all females named by those who depended on more than testosterone in the ancient prayers of the Mass as those "into whose company we pray Thee to admit us." There is absolutely no lack of female representation in Traditional Christianity presented as models for the emulation of all. The "Communicantes" of the ancient liturgy begins with an invocation "honoring the memory, first of the glorious, ever Virgin Mary, Mother of God and Lord Jesus Christ." For all the veneration and honor duly given to St. Joseph and the blessed apostles and martyrs, none precede the Second Eve. Catholics have been blamed for centuries now because we insist that a female has been first in our hearts after the Son of God Himself. Has the tide finally turned?

I don't accuse anyone of diminishing the role of women in salvation history, but if paternalism is a problem, the remedy is found in the Traditional Latin Mass recognized by Pope St. Pius V 500 years ago who canonized prayers documented to go back to any caveman or testerone days that have existed in the last 2,000 years.

3DOP

Edited July 1, 2013 by 3DOP

[Stone holm]

stoneholm

In any event, there is something to be said about the impact this has had on religious culture arising from eras when brute strength was of extreme importance to survival. Makes one wonder how much of our modern thinking is derived from the importance of testosterone in much of early civilisation.

3DOP

What era are you talking about? Brute strength? Brute strength didn't make Christianity triumph over paganism. Sts. Felicitas, Perpetua, Agatha, Lucy, Agnes, Cecilia, and Anastasia are all females named by those who depended on more than testosterone in the ancient prayers of the Mass as those "into whose company we pray Thee to admit us." There is absolutely no lack of female representation in Traditional Christianity presented as models for the emulation of all. The "Communicantes" of the ancient liturgy begins with an invocation "honoring the memory, first of the glorious, ever Virgin Mary, Mother of God and Lord Jesus Christ." For all the veneration and honor duly given to St. Joseph and the blessed apostles and martyrs, none precede the Second Eve. Catholics have been blamed for centuries now because we insist that a female has been first in our hearts after the Son of God Himself. Has the tide finally turned?

I don't accuse anyone of diminishing the role of women in salvation history, but if paternalism is a problem, the remedy is found in the Traditional Latin Mass recognized by Pope St. Pius V 500 years ago who canonized prayers documented to go back to any caveman or testerone days that have existed in the last 2,000 years.

3DOP

No the Roman Legions did.

[3DOP]

No the Roman Legions did.

I can't disagree or agree. What do you mean? The Roman Legions did what? Did they stop the persecutions? No. Did they convert? Yeah, finally; after three centuries of seeing more courage in those Christian women than they ever saw on a battlefield. The courageous faith of women was absolutely essential to the conversions of men from paganism. And if some have forgotten, as I said, those who worship as the ancients did have not.

Two centuries after Christ was born, the same distance chronologically as we are from Napoleon's retreat from Moscow, the Roman Legions allowed that the chaste and modest Felicity and Perpetua should be mauled by mad cows.

Three centuries after Christ was born, the same distance chronologically as we are from the publication of the discoveries of Isaac Newton, the Roman Legions still allowed the execution of a twelve year old virgin named Agnes, whose steadfast feminine courage outmatched any martial spirits that might have animated men carrying sword and shield.

Literally dozens more well documented stories can be told. Many more pious legends show a consistenty feminine orientation in the development of early Christian devotion.

If testosterone driven Roman armies at last converted in the 4th Century, it wasn't because they were overmatched by testerone driven Christians. They were shamed and tamed by a motherly and feminine influence in the faith they adopted.

[Stone holm]

No. Referring to Constantines making religion the established religion of the Empire and doing so using the sign of the bloody cross as a omen to conquer militarily. Followed by sword point conversion of Europe.

[cdowis]

Don't have the reference but Nibley (of course) wrote an article on how Eve played an important role in the Garden of Eden, that she understood the role the Fall played. She was able to convince Adam that this was necessary. She should be honored, rather than disparaged.

[Stone holm]

Don't have the reference but Nibley (of course) wrote an article on how Eve played an important role in the Garden of Eden, that she understood the role the Fall played. She was able to convince Adam that this was necessary. She should be honored, rather than disparaged.

Agreed, yet we know so little about her. I wonder if they knew more anciently and the knowledge was suppressed along with her gender.

[Stone holm]

Related question is, what is the deal with the whole rib story?

[Ron Beron]

Related question is, what is the deal with the whole rib story?

Although I wrote this awhile back it seems germane here...

Where did Eve come from? Was it a rib or what? I have some thoughts I would like to share and I have read some fascinating things of late that shed some light on this.

1. The actual term is that Eve was created from Adam’s tsela or side. The actual passage is, “And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs (or side), and closed up the flesh in its place.” If one looks at tsela one will find it has many meanings. In each case it means an item that extends out. And before everyone gets excited I am NOT heading in that direction.

Zeony Zevit, an teacher at the American Jewish University of Los Angeles has suggested in a paper published in the American Journal of Medical Genetics in 2001 entitled “Congenital Human Baculum Deficiency” by Scott F. Gilbert and Ziony Zevit that the tsela in question was actually the baculum or literally a bone present in all but male humans and spider monkeys in aiding intercourse. The absence of this bone would certain give rise by obvious observation to the exclusion of this part of the anatomy and the speculation among early peoples in the speculation of how Eve came about, i.e., tsela equates to the baculum. In addition, the passage in Genesis continues with another etiological detail… Zevit writes,

Quote

Genesis 2:21 contains another etiological detail: “The Lord God closed up the flesh.” This detail would explain the peculiar visible sign on the penis and scrotum of human males—the raphé . In the human penis and scrotum, the edges of the urogenital folds come together over the urogenital sinus (urethral groove) to form a seam, the raphé. If this seam does not form, hypospadias of the glans, penis, and scrotum can result. The origin of this seam on the external genitalia was “explained” by the story of the closing of Adam’s flesh. Again, the wound associated with the generation of Eve is connected to Adam’s penis and not his rib.

My intent was not to be indiscreet but informative on how legend sometimes creeps into doctrine to make up our understanding of the scriptures.

2. On a more literary note, the ancient Mesopotamians believe that the rib motif is actually from a much older text in Sumerian that reads…

Quote

Ninhursag: “My brother what hurts thee?”

Enki: “My side hurts me.”

Ninhursag: “To the goddess Dazimua I give birth for thee.”

Ninhursag: “My brother what hurts thee?”

Enki: “My rib hurts me.”

Ninhursag: “To the goddess Ninti I give birth for thee.”

(Kramer, Sumerian Mythology 58)

Samuel Kramer writes,

Quote

Now the Sumerian word for “rib” is ti (pronounced “tee”). The goddess created for the healing of Enki’s rib, therefore was called in Sumerian Nin-ti, “the lady of the rib.” But the very same Sumerian word ti also means “to make live.” The name Nin-ti may thus mean “the lady who makes live,” as well as “the lady of the rib.” In Sumerian literature, therefore, “the lady of the rib” came to be identified with “the lady who makes live” through what might be termed a play on words. (Kramer, Mythologies 103)

Kramer suggests that the passage in Genesis where Eve, “the mother of all living” is taken from Adam’s rib may be an echo of this Sumerian pun. Enki felt a pain in his rib or side which is identical to the word life. To relieve Enki Ninhursag created a new god named Ninti or “Lady of Life or Rib”. Both Ninhursag and Eve are composite creations.

3. An old story of the rib is told by Rabbi Joshua:

Quote

“God deliberated from what member He would create woman, and He

reasoned with Himself thus: I must not create her from Adam’s head, for

she would be a proud person, and hold her head high. If I create her

from the eye, then she will wish to pry into all things; if from the

ear, she will wish to hear all things; if from the mouth, she will talk

much; if from the heart, she will envy people; if from the hand, she

will desire to take all things; if from the feet, she will be a

gadabout. Therefore I will create her from the member which is hid,

that is the rib, which is not even seen when man is naked.” translated from the Ethiopic (1882) by Malan. This was first translated by Dillmann (Das christl. Adambuch des Morgenlandes, 1853), and the Ethiopic book first edited by Trump (Abh. d. Münch. Akad. xv., 1870-1881)

[Alan]

I have a couple of points to make on this subject.

1. Some Adamic stories have Adam as the husband of two wives. Eve, the vituous one, and Lilith the promiscuous one. I would be interested in any information or insight regarding this claim.

2. I see Eve as doing wrong in the garden. She was tempted and fell. She was punished by God for her sin (and it was sin).

She understood the need for the knowledge of good and evil but she was too previous. I think at some stage both Adam and Eve would have been instructed to take the fruit once they were fully prepared for it. Lucifer jumped in with spoiling tactics by getting them to take it too early, thus the fall was a tragedy at first.

If this is true, we can't escape the fact that it was Eve who sinned, not Adam. It was Adam who was faced with a dilema as to which of the conflicting laws he was to keep a) not take the fruit, or b) stay with Eve (who would have to leave the garden) in order to populate the earth. He could not do both. Eve placed him in that position in my view. Therefore she sinned, while he transgressed.

[Questing Beast]

What just happened to "Lilith"? You introduce her and then she disappears?...

[Stone holm]

I have a couple of points to make on this subject.

1. Some Adamic stories have Adam as the husband of two wives. Eve, the vituous one, and Lilith the promiscuous one. I would be interested in any information or insight regarding this claim.

2. I see Eve as doing wrong in the garden. She was tempted and fell. She was punished by God for her sin (and it was sin).

She understood the need for the knowledge of good and evil but she was too previous. I think at some stage both Adam and Eve would have been instructed to take the fruit once they were fully prepared for it. Lucifer jumped in with spoiling tactics by getting them to take it too early, thus the fall was a tragedy at first.

If this is true, we can't escape the fact that it was Eve who sinned, not Adam. It was Adam who was faced with a dilema as to which of the conflicting laws he was to keep a) not take the fruit, or b) stay with Eve (who would have to leave the garden) in order to populate the earth. He could not do both. Eve placed him in that position in my view. Therefore she sinned, while he transgressed.

My limited knowledge of the legend of Lilith was that she was intended as Adam's first wife but when she was told she must be subject and subordinate to him she said I'm out of here. Hence her name has been adopted by some lesbian groups.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Stone holm