The Mystery Of Eve

[Calm]

I have information that it started off as a practical joke, but it then took on a life of its own..

Seriously?  Or is this a joke as well?  If not, CFR please.

[EllenMaksoud]

Like Heavenly Mother, we seem to know more about Adam than we do about Eve. The Genesis account after portraying Adam as throwing Eve under the bus over the whole temptation thing pretty much dismisses her. We as Mormons hold her much higher in our esteem for her wisdom and understanding, but we leave a lot of questions unanswered as well. Does anyone here have answers, do we even know the questions?

There is one LDS singing group,  Shadow Mountain Records, the CD called, "Nearer" , where one song mentions Heavenly mother. I have no issue with there being a Heavenly Mother, and perhaps her being equal with Heavenly Father. Though I know of no place in religious literature where she is mentioned. In other cultures, she is mentioned as gaia. I know there must be a Heavenly Mother, else why would God create humans and all life we know as Male and Female?

[Stone holm]

There is one LDS singing group,  Shadow Mountain Records, the CD called, "Nearer" , where one song mentions Heavenly mother. I have no issue with there being a Heavenly Mother, and perhaps her being equal with Heavenly Father. Though I know of no place in religious literature where she is mentioned. In other cultures, she is mentioned as gaia. I know there must be a Heavenly Mother, else why would God create humans and all life we know as Male and Female?

It has been argued that she was worshipped in the Temple prior to Josiah, and that the early Christians worshipped her as well, but the writings and references were purged by Augustine during the great gnostic purges.

[BCSpace]

The Genesis account after portraying Adam as throwing Eve under the bus over the whole temptation thing pretty much dismisses her. We as Mormons hold her much higher in our esteem for her wisdom and understanding, but we leave a lot of questions unanswered as well. Does anyone here have answers, do we even know the questions?

 

Eve, seeing an opportunity, pushed Lilith over a cliff whose bottom was just outside the Garden...

 

[EllenMaksoud]

I have a couple of points to make on this subject.

1. Some Adamic stories have Adam as the husband of two wives. Eve, the vituous one, and Lilith the promiscuous one. I would be interested in any information or insight regarding this claim.

2. I see Eve as doing wrong in the garden. She was tempted and fell. She was punished by God for her sin (and it was sin).

She understood the need for the knowledge of good and evil but she was too previous. I think at some stage both Adam and Eve would have been instructed to take the fruit once they were fully prepared for it. Lucifer jumped in with spoiling tactics by getting them to take it too early, thus the fall was a tragedy at first.

If this is true, we can't escape the fact that it was Eve who sinned, not Adam. It was Adam who was faced with a dilema as to which of the conflicting laws he was to keep a) not take the fruit, or b) stay with Eve (who would have to leave the garden) in order to populate the earth. He could not do both. Eve placed him in that position in my view. Therefore she sinned, while he transgressed.

You are barking up the wrong tree here mister.   So, OK, Eve took a bite of the apple. So then human kind should be punished for from 6000 to 200000 years over one mistake? I think the true story got lost in the passage of time. God, punishing us for all time fits right into the psyche of vengeful man.

 

LDS theology accnowleges that things happened but it was part of God's plan. I have people in my life that can not even remember how things happened 10 years ago.  Now I am supposed to hang on a document that could be how old? And, how old were the stories before they started getting written down?

 

A case in point is Surah 4:34 in the Quran. The last sentence of that Surah says that husband can beat his wife. I personally know of a half dozen different interpretations of that Surah, and the Quran is only around 1400 years old and is still in the original language, classical Arabic.  Geez, no one even speaks that any more...

 

So, one of the important issues is why did God choose two genders to procreate? Why not 6 genders? Why not one?  Though I can not remember what animal does it, Frog, I think, can reproduce in time of need. The female can make herself preggers. Or another one, perhaps can change genders. Wow, doesn't science just trump religious prejudice?

 

So, why is it humans come in two genders. Well, that's not actually true. The main genders are male and female, and then there are thousands of genetic variations, of which I am one, in between that make us mostly this or that or both. Ain't science fun?

 

The only thing I know for sure is that God is, and he sends representatives to talk to us and we kill them every time. He does nice things for me and other times not. I do my best to please him and right at the moment, he seems happy with my pitiful efforts.

[EllenMaksoud]

It has been argued that she was worshipped in the Temple prior to Josiah, and that the early Christians worshipped her as well, but the writings and references were purged by Augustine during the great gnostic purges.

Wow, you are fascinating. Lots of people don't know about these things. The folk that were around right after Jesus Christ wiped out the Gnostics, and the Essenes, and some extremist christian Jihadi got a group together and brutally murdered Hypatia of Alexandra, who had a huge library just chocked full of documents that could have perhaps helped us put together our history better.

 

Which leads me to believe that someone just after Christ did not want a true historical record to exist. The destruction seems so complete and perhaps even methodical, like satan was on a rage, destroying what he could.

 

Of course then there is the woman in Revelation 12 who flees into the wilderness. Now, I have to try to figure that out. Sigh ! Maybe I am meant not to have husband again. I have so much time to do research now.

[freedad]

Someone mentioned this earlier and I agree.  My understanding of Mother Eve has increased greatly since seeing the new temple film.  It portrays her in a very positive light with wisdom, knowledge, and faith.  As great a spirit Adam (Michael) was, she must have been equal in her greatness.

[volgadon]

Wow, you are fascinating. Lots of people don't know about these things. The folk that were around right after Jesus Christ wiped out the Gnostics, and the Essenes, and some extremist christian Jihadi got a group together and brutally murdered Hypatia of Alexandra, who had a huge library just chocked full of documents that could have perhaps helped us put together our history better.

 

Not exactly. http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2010/06/the-perniciously-persistent-myths-of-hypatia-and-the-great-library

[ERayR]

Voice of God:  Adam, Eve your mission should you choose to take it is to intstitute mortality into this creation so that all these spirits can experience it.

 

Voice Adam and a nod of assent from Eve:  But we are physical beings now.

 

Voice of God: I did not say introduce physicality.  I said Mortality. You must combine mortality with this physicality.

 

Voice of Adam and Eve (in unison):  It will be difficult but we will do it.

 

Note:  They had to be great people.

[EllenMaksoud]

Not exactly. http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2010/06/the-perniciously-persistent-myths-of-hypatia-and-the-great-library

Well, that is one point of view. I have heard others.

[volgadon]

Well, that is one point of view. I have heard others.

 

I've heard others, too.

 

It is not a matter of points of view, but of evidence. If you know of opposing points of view that take the evidence into account like this, let me know.

[EllenMaksoud]

I've heard others, too.

 

It is not a matter of points of view, but of evidence. If you know of opposing points of view that take the evidence into account like this, let me know.

Well, it is impossible to prove either view with certainty.  I once knew a British Archeologist who held the view that I shared. Between you and I , the only major disagreement seems to be about whether the library existed or not. I don't know do I? My Professor friend felt that it did. I liked him and respected his views very much. We can respectfully disagree, and I am happy with that.

 

One thing that has made me feel that our grasp of history is tenuous is when I was watching a documentary on the Moors in Southern Spain done by the BBC. In one segment, the moderator was in a Moorish palace in Spain were all that remained was the floor, the pillars and parts of the roof.  I got the impression that it was huge. It might have been the Alhambra Palace, perhaps. The point that gave me pause was when he said, "We don't know the purpose of any of these rooms". At that point, a light came on, and I realized that while many professors speak with seemingly great authority on the history of the past, we just aren't really very effective on sussing out the facts.

[volgadon]

Well, it is impossible to prove either view with certainty.  I once knew a British Archeologist who held the view that I shared. Between you and I , the only major disagreement seems to be about whether the library existed or not. I don't know do I? My Professor friend felt that it did. I liked him and respected his views very much. We can respectfully disagree, and I am happy with that.

 

One thing that has made me feel that our grasp of history is tenuous is when I was watching a documentary on the Moors in Southern Spain done by the BBC. In one segment, the moderator was in a Moorish palace in Spain were all that remained was the floor, the pillars and parts of the roof.  I got the impression that it was huge. It might have been the Alhambra Palace, perhaps. The point that gave me pause was when he said, "We don't know the purpose of any of these rooms". At that point, a light came on, and I realized that while many professors speak with seemingly great authority on the history of the past, we just aren't really very effective on sussing out the facts.

 

One doesn't have to prove it with the degree of certainty that you suggest. Lets look at the primary source, the Christian scholar Socrates. Yes, it does say that the mob was moved by a "fierce and bigoted zeal," but what else does it say?

 

Yet even she fell victim to the political jealousy which at that time prevailed. For as she had frequent interviews with Orestes, it was calumniously reported among the Christian populace, that it was she who prevented Orestes from being reconciled to the bishop. Some of them, therefore, hurried away by a fierce and bigoted zeal, whose ringleader was a reader named Peter, waylaid her returning home, and dragging her from her carriage, they took her to the church called Caesareum, where they completely stripped her, and then murdered her with tiles.* After tearing her body in pieces, they took her mangled limbs to a place called Cinaron, and there burnt them. This affair brought not the least opprobrium, not only upon Cyril, but also upon the whole Alexandrian church. And surely nothing can be farther from the spirit of Christianity than the allowance of massacres, fights, and transactions of that sort. This happened in the month of March during Lent, in the fourth year of Cyril's episcopate, under the tenth consulate of Honorius, and the sixth of Theodosius.

 

David Bentley Hart, then, it would seem, is not merely offering an opinion or point of view, but pointing out the eplicit reason given by our primary source- vicious political in-fighting.

[EllenMaksoud]

One doesn't have to prove it with the degree of certainty that you suggest. Lets look at the primary source, the Christian scholar Socrates. Yes, it does say that the mob was moved by a "fierce and bigoted zeal," but what else does it say?

 

Yet even she fell victim to the political jealousy which at that time prevailed. For as she had frequent interviews with Orestes, it was calumniously reported among the Christian populace, that it was she who prevented Orestes from being reconciled to the bishop. Some of them, therefore, hurried away by a fierce and bigoted zeal, whose ringleader was a reader named Peter, waylaid her returning home, and dragging her from her carriage, they took her to the church called Caesareum, where they completely stripped her, and then murdered her with tiles.* After tearing her body in pieces, they took her mangled limbs to a place called Cinaron, and there burnt them. This affair brought not the least opprobrium, not only upon Cyril, but also upon the whole Alexandrian church. And surely nothing can be farther from the spirit of Christianity than the allowance of massacres, fights, and transactions of that sort. This happened in the month of March during Lent, in the fourth year of Cyril's episcopate, under the tenth consulate of Honorius, and the sixth of Theodosius.

 

David Bentley Hart, then, it would seem, is not merely offering an opinion or point of view, but pointing out the eplicit reason given by our primary source- vicious political in-fighting.

Thank you. I have no idea what my professor friend's sources were.

[theplains]

May I suggest that you go to the temple if it has the new video.

 

I wonder if the new temple video will portray it as negatively as the Book of Genesis does.

From the scriptures, Eve lost her elevated status in the Fall.

 

"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou

shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over

thee".

 

Sorrow was not part of the plan in bringing forth children. Also, Adam was not ruling over

her before. This was her punishment. As for the 'desire' part, I few a few websites which

have some commentary on it. Site 1, site 2, and site 3,

 

Thanks,

Jim

[Stone holm]

I wonder if the new temple video will portray it as negatively as the Book of Genesis does.

From the scriptures, Eve lost her elevated status in the Fall.

 

"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou

shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over

thee".

 

Sorrow was not part of the plan in bringing forth children. Also, Adam was not ruling over

her before. This was her punishment. As for the 'desire' part, I few a few websites which

have some commentary on it. Site 1, site 2, and site 3,

 

Thanks,

Jim

I doubt there were punishments, consequences yes, punishment I doubt. Also, doubt the possibility of painless childbirth.

[Calm]

 Also, doubt the possibility of painless childbirth.

There are women who manage it.  I know of one who had 7 children and only made it to the hospital for her last one and her husband delivered most of the rest because they popped out before the nurse arrived on those she was intending to have a home birth on.  One started coming out when she was in the bathtub cleaning up before getting ready to head to the hospital and as she started to get out her husband made a diving save as the baby literally popped out and would have hit the floor except for his two outstretched hands.  Poor dad even had the blood and mess cleaned up by the time anyone official arrived.

 

Make me wonder just what kind of curse it actually was if it is variable in its application and depends often on genetics and lifestyle.  I wonder if it is one of those curses that is read back into an event looking for an explanation rather than originating with the event it is tied to.  Maybe the pain and sorrow was more about bearing a child for 9 months with all that worry and then raising a child in a troubled world rather than childbirth itself.

 

Me, I would have been dead if I had been having kids before the advent of modern medicine from complications of the birth....and I don't see that as a consequence of Eve's actions, one can't experience sorrow and pain if one is dead after all.