Miracle Of Forgiveness

[thatjimguy]

In another thread, I was talking about "secondary doctrine" books. I was given "The Miracle of Forgiveness" at one time by my bishop. Although I pretty much dived into scripture during that time, I could not discern what is truly official and not about the book. So for those who have read it, what is it inside the book that makes it unofficial. What is said that is not truly accurate. Thanks.

[Five Solas]

One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation.

Let the discernment begin...

;0)

--Erik

[sweetpotatoh]

When we rely on our own understanding we are apt to stumble. Have you ever wondered why there are so many Churches? Pastors? Denominations? It's because men interpret things differently. When we rely on Men's interpretations we stumble. If you want to know what is truth and what isn't it is essential to have the Holy Ghost.

Understanding Truth isn't as black and white as you think. Sometimes we aren't ready for more truth, because we have to grow before we can understand it. That is why it is essential to have the Holy Ghost. That is why we can study the scriptures for a lifetime and still learn.

Most modern churches deny revelation, god has spoken all that he will. Then you get all the different sects and pastors competing for a limited number of members. As to what is truth in The Miracle of Forgiveness, that is between the reader and Heavenly Father.

[Five Solas]

As to what is truth in The Miracle of Forgiveness, that is between the reader and Heavenly Father.

Are you suggesting what might be truth for one reader of Miracle of Forgiveness could be falsity for another?

--Erik

[sweetpotatoh]

Are you suggesting what might be truth for one reader of Miracle of Forgiveness could be falsity for another?

--Erik

Not at all. I am suggesting the capacity to understand the truth differs from one individual to the next. Therefore God will reveal what can be understood at that moment.

[Lightbearer]

In another thread, I was talking about "secondary doctrine" books. I was given "The Miracle of Forgiveness" at one time by my bishop. Although I pretty much dived into scripture during that time, I could not discern what is truly official and not about the book. So for those who have read it, what is it inside the book that makes it unofficial. What is said that is not truly accurate. Thanks.

Notwithstanding "Miracle of Forgiveness" is not canon, it is doctrinal and I have read it many times and have never found anything in it that is not doctrinally sound. Including the quote mentioned in this thread, it is also doctrinally sound.

[TAO]

Miracle of Forgiveness is a fine book. People might find it a bit abrasive, but honestly, there are few books which will be just as blunt to you as to what you need to do to follow God. If frankness is what you need, this is quite good at it.

Like others have said, it's not doctrine, but it's full of a lot of good sound things. Sometimes a bit blunt, but good and sound nonetheless.

Edited June 30, 2013 by TAO

[daz2]

What about this quote from the book?: "Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle." Page 196.

[Sevenbak]

What about this quote from the book?: "Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle." Page 196.

It kind of goes hand in hand with Alma 14.

11 But Alma said unto him: The Spirit constraineth me that I must not stretch forth mine hand; for behold the Lord receiveth them up unto himself, in ^aglory; and he doth suffer that they may do this thing, or that the people may do this thing unto them, according to the hardness of their hearts, that the ^bjudgmentswhich he shall exercise upon them in his wrath may be just; and the ^cblood of the ^dinnocent shall stand as a witness against them, yea, and cry mightily against them at the last day.

[thatjimguy]

The book actually made me wonder if anyone really makes it. This book is far from the "Jesus makes up the slack" quote. I don't you can have the cake and eat it too here.

[Garden Girl]

What about this quote from the book?: "Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle." Page 196.

This insensitive statement makes me cringe... he very poorly made his point that a woman who is raped is under no condemnation as far as personal virtue or chastity, but a victim... millions of women have been victims, having had to endure this vile crime at the hands of some man, and I find his words abhorrent to those who did survive and were not murdered.

GG

edit to add: Even though I object to his above statement and a few of the more blunt entries, there is much that is good and true to be found in this book, and of course I believe he was a prophet of the Lord. My parents loved Pres Kimball (I was inactive when he was President, but I have read this book and I did go through a repentance process when I reactivated).

Edited June 30, 2013 by Garden Girl

[Brian 2.0]

"[Masturbation] too often leads to a grievous sin, even to that sin against nature, homosexuality. For, done in private, it evolves often into mutual masturbation - practiced with another person of the same sex - and thence into total homosexuality."

While not doctrine related. This is one of my all-time favorite slippery slope arguments. I didn't just come across this in Miracle of Forgiveness, I got taught this sequences of events multiple times by my Young Men's advisors. The jumps in this slippery slope are amazing.

Masturbation --> Mutual Masturbation w/same sex --> Total homosexuality.

All of us young men would laugh at this, knowing that we were all doing #1, and there wasn't a chance in outer darkness any of us had interest in #2, much less #3.

If that chain of events was accurate, our species would have ceased existing due to lack of procreation billions of years ago.

Edited June 30, 2013 by Brian 2.0

[Tacenda]

This insensitive statement makes me cringe... he very poorly made his point that a woman who is raped is under no condemnation as far as personal virtue or chastity, but a victim... millions of women have been victims, having had to endure this vile crime at the hands of some man, and I find his words abhorrent to those who did survive and were not murdered.

GG

This quote and a few others are the reason this gift to my son two years ago from our bishop found itself in the garbage.

[rpn]

You may be aware that some of those who were required to read Miracle of Forgiveness as a condition of some kind of formal discipline, or to whom a bishop recommended it, reacted to it as though it taught that they were worthless and hopeless ---- a generally negative reaction. President Kimball's son wrote in his biography that Pres. Kimball was appalled and saddened on hearing that and said that he would have written it differently had he had it to do over.

That is why all the books aren't doctrine. While it certainly has what the authors believe is accurate information, sometimes even apostles interpret things or understand things wrong. And even when they get it entirely correct, they are only writing it in their own voice, which means that they may not use the words that God would use if He were doing the instruction. And sometimes those mortal shortcomings hurt others unintentionally. There aren't many things these days that are accepted as scripture: our's is a faith with lots of reliance on limited scripture and personal revelation.

[Garden Girl]

This quote and a few others are the reason this gift to my son two years ago from our bishop found itself in the garbage.

Tacenda...

Go back and read my "edit to add."

GG

[Garden Girl]

You may be aware that some of those who were required to read Miracle of Forgiveness as a condition of some kind of formal discipline, or to whom a bishop recommended it, reacted to it as though it taught that they were worthless and hopeless ---- a generally negative reaction. President Kimball's son wrote in his biography that Pres. Kimball was appalled and saddened on hearing that and said that he would have written it differently had he had it to do over.

Yes, I'm sure he would have been more thoughtful about the rape quote... and probably softened a number of other statements in the way he presented his thoughts and opinions... I was able to look past those things and reap the good that is there.

edit to add: Tacenda... I did not throw his book into the garbage, but read with a faithful and prayerful heart...

GG

Edited June 30, 2013 by Garden Girl

[Kevin Christensen]

Much as I admire President Kimball, it's not a book I recommend to people, including in my role as Stake Addiction Recovery Representative. I read it through about three years ago. I've since noticed that it is not on the recommended readings on the LDS combating Pornography site. And I'm certainly glad that no one offered a copy to Elizabeth Smart when she came home. When time permits, I may put together more specifics. In the meantime, their are some very good resources for repentence.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

Edited July 2, 2013 by Kevin Christensen

[Glenn101]

I read "Thr Miracle of Forgiveness" many years ago. It had a lot of good advice, non sugar coated, for anyone to follow. As others have noted, it is not doctrine, but has doctinally sound advice. It is not perfect, though, as also has been noted. However, the greates thing I took away from reading that book was the great hope that one has of forgiveness after going through the repentance process.

(But all the grace in the world will not save a person if they do not repent of their sins. Repentance would seem to fall into the "work" category.)

Glenn

[Duncan]

You may be aware that some of those who were required to read Miracle of Forgiveness as a condition of some kind of formal discipline, or to whom a bishop recommended it, reacted to it as though it taught that they were worthless and hopeless ---- a generally negative reaction. President Kimball's son wrote in his biography that Pres. Kimball was appalled and saddened on hearing that and said that he would have written it differently had he had it to do over.

That is why all the books aren't doctrine. While it certainly has what the authors believe is accurate information, sometimes even apostles interpret things or understand things wrong. And even when they get it entirely correct, they are only writing it in their own voice, which means that they may not use the words that God would use if He were doing the instruction. And sometimes those mortal shortcomings hurt others unintentionally. There aren't many things these days that are accepted as scripture: our's is a faith with lots of reliance on limited scripture and personal revelation.

this is what happened to me. I was 12 when our Bishop gave our deacon's quorum this book and honestly it poisoned me and created a whole lot of ungood...I don't know if I still over it and i I am 34! i call it "the miracle if you can be forgiven" but I love Pres. Kimball otherwise!

[Storm Rider]

As has been stated by others, this is not a book a refer to others. It is not that there is not value, but that its focus could be better stated. I prefer to help people understand how much our Father in Heaven wants to forgive us; how great his mercy and love are, rather than how wretched we are as sinners.

[Duncan]

As has been stated by others, this is not a book a refer to others. It is not that there is not value, but that its focus could be better stated. I prefer to help people understand how much our Father in Heaven wants to forgive us; how great his mercy and love are, rather than how wretched we are as sinners.

as someone once told it's a book to call people who don't want to repent to repent but not for the rest of us who are like um...yeah...that wasn't cool!

[Tacenda]

this is what happened to me. I was 12 when our Bishop gave our deacon's quorum this book and honestly it poisoned me and created a whole lot of ungood...I don't know if I still over it and i I am 34! i call it "the miracle if you can be forgiven" but I love Pres. Kimball otherwise!

I feel he was of a different mindset later and like his son stated, came to regret some things in the book. My husband got to spend some time with he and his wife Camilla on his mission and has a photo with him. He was prophet during my late teens and I read his biography, and remember him saying in it that when was called to be prophet it was so hard for him to feel adequate enough to fulfill the calling that his body was under so much stress that he had painful boils all over his body. So I don't feel harsh feelings for him at all, hope it didn't come across that way.

[thatjimguy]

Here's a thought. Why doesn't someone re-establish the book and word it properly? Why let it stand as it is? Sure it is Pres. Kimball's work and all, but why not have someone have revelation and promptings and fix the things. I doubt Pres. Kimball would have disapproved. The bottom line is, it is still being sold as is by Deseret Book. People are picking it up and I am quite sure not questioning anything in it like you are, or are having some cognitive dissonance issues with it.

[bdouglas]

deleted

Edited June 30, 2013 by bdouglas

[Calm]

What about this quote from the book?: "Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle." Page 196.

That is only a problem if virtue is equated to virginity....which it isn't. Virtue is a spiritual attribute, not a physical one and therefore cannot be taken from one, only given up on. And it is not voluntary cooperation or contribution or participation if one is in fear of one's life.

OTOH, when one is involved in prostitution, one could say that one voluntary cooperates in one's own rape if one equates rape as a sexual interaction having to do power and control rather than love or mutual attraction.

The quote was poorly worded with enough ambiguity to lead to misunderstandings and bitterness unfortunately. But knowing President Kimball, I suspect he didn't mean it in the extreme negative way many interpret it.

Edited June 30, 2013 by calmoriah