Will The Gender Gap Continue To Grow Now There Are More Sister Missionaries?

[Duncan]

In this mission the Mission President said that out of the three stakes only 12% of eligible young men go on missions. Now how many stay out and how many stay active after I dunno

[Stone holm]

In this mission the Mission President said that out of the three stakes only 12% of eligible young men go on missions. Now how many stay out and how many stay active after I dunno

I don't know if he was correct in that he tends to be more cynical than I, if that is possible, but my eldest son, who served a full time mission thought that the Church's move in lowering the eligibility age on missions was aimed at getting the boys before they got the girls and rendered themselves ineligible on worthiness grounds. In doing so they did reduce a dangerous window of opportunity to mess up.

[Duncan]

I don't know if he was correct in that he tends to be more cynical than I, if that is possible, but my eldest son, who served a full time mission thought that the Church's move in lowering the eligibility age on missions was aimed at getting the boys before they got the girls and rendered themselves ineligible on worthiness grounds. In doing so they did reduce a dangerous window of opportunity to mess up.

that could be, however needed as that is I just wonder sometimes about the social skills of these elders coming out at 18-not saying i was super smooth then but I dunno

[Five Solas]

It's been my experience that there are, at least, more active women than men.

Totally depends where you are. In Seattle, way more single guys then gals (IT/software, which dominates local employment, is predominately male and male college grads with IT related degrees come here from all over the country to work at Amazon, Microsoft, etc.). As this map makes clear: http://joeydevilla.c...singles-map.jpg

And that held true in the LDS singles wards. I used to DJ YSA dances for my local stake, and when I'd put on a slow song, just sad, unpaired guys left standing along the wall. If you were female--you were out on the floor.

I never would have gotten married if I'd stayed LDS. Didn't have a temple recommend, never served a mission, and there were plenty of guys who did & had for the young women to choose from. And when I "graduated" from YSA to SA and saw my future being inscribed on the wall, well, let's just say I'm glad God had a different plan for my life. Because I really like being married & having kids (my wife is out with my 4 yr old & 2 yr old shopping for a birthday present for a party tomorrow, and my 6 month old son is napping upstairs, leaving me to reflect on my former life). I'm very glad indeed...

:0)

--Erik

[Stone holm]

that could be, however needed as that is I just wonder sometimes about the social skills of these elders coming out at 18-not saying i was super smooth then but I dunno

He also wondered aloud if the greater efficacy of the Sister missionaries in the past was that they were older and because they were out there because they wanted to be rather than that they were expected to be. So he wondered if the Sisters superior abilities would decline with their age level and with the potential cultural revolution within the Church where young women serving a full time mission comes to be more expected and less a sign of lack of suitors as it was 20 years ago.

[Duncan]

He also wondered aloud if the greater efficacy of the Sister missionaries in the past was that they were older and because they were out there because they wanted to be rather than that they were expected to be. So he wondered if the Sisters superior abilities would decline with their age level and with the potential cultural revolution within the Church where young women serving a full time mission comes to be more expected and less a sign of lack of suitors as it was 20 years ago.

well, all of the sisters I knew well enough in my mission are all married, one had her hubbie get killed in a crash which is too bad for sure. In this mission I have only heard of one sister go home because she didn't want to be out anymore and that was a few years ago. One went home last year due to medical reasons, it seems elders are the ones to go home, is it just because there are more out then sisters? I dunno. I wonder with the influx of sisters coming out there'll be more sisters going home, I guess with all things we'll see. I guess it just depends on the person, elder or sister, some are great and some aren't so great.

[Stone holm]

well, all of the sisters I knew well enough in my mission are all married, one had her hubbie get killed in a crash which is too bad for sure. In this mission I have only heard of one sister go home because she didn't want to be out anymore and that was a few years ago. One went home last year due to medical reasons, it seems elders are the ones to go home, is it just because there are more out then sisters? I dunno. I wonder with the influx of sisters coming out there'll be more sisters going home, I guess with all things we'll see. I guess it just depends on the person, elder or sister, some are great and some aren't so great.

I remember a few decades back as Bishop attending a Bishop's meeting in the Stake and we were discussing mini missions for the boys and I casually mentioned we should be planning something for the YW and there was sudden silence and they kind of looked at me like I had three heads, and then one of the older Bishops said, "the Church does not encourage YW to go on missions." Soooo, I just dropped that subject. As a Bishop I fought to keep our Sister missionaries, while we had them we regularly tied for the top baptism position in the Mission. Am hoping we get another pair in the coming surge.

[BlueDreams]

Lately, I've been wondering how the landscape of the church might look in a few years due to the influx of sister missionaries. I think this influx will have an impact on the already widening gender gap in the church. More sister missionaries could mean more female converts than men.

This is completely anectdotal of course....but I had an equal amount of male and female converts while I was out. And my roommate had one more male than female convert. Being women did not effect whether men listened to us. Sometimes it gave us an advantage.

The education gap is also widening, http://www.deseretne...sis.html?pg=all

These are national stats....not particular to LDS trends. I don't know if we can say these would hold for lds members in the US. I'm pretty certain the education trend (at least for college) isn't holding to the national levels. Here's an article about that for UVU. I looked up BYU, BYU-I, and BYU-H, and the LDSBC. Both BYU and LDSBC have slightly less women enrolled then men (49% and 48% respectively) BYU-I and BYU-H are closer to national trends (56-57%). So I don't know if you can feasibly say the education gap is sure and steadfast as the overall national trend in the US....especially if you want to include the overall global population....much of which have LDS members in areas that are still struggling with large gender inequalities that greatly disadvantage women.

These trends are a little discomforting to me. This can't be good for LDS families. Are most women going to be the primary breadwinners in the typical family in a few years? What can be done to reverse these trends and encourage young men to pursue their educations and stay in the church? Will it be the norm for many LDS women to not be able to marry in the faith, due to the gender gap?

Again, you'd need to prove to the education gap in a global (or even the U.S) church, match with the us national trends.....not likely. Then you'd need to see what women are actually graduating in. There are specific areas that men continue to dominate in their fields that are also more monetarily sound. Fields that are female dominated (including teaching, especially in the lower levels of school and administration) are generally lower pay-grades as well. So there's still a high likelihood that men will be the major breadwinners (since men still generally make more than women) or simply an increased rate of double-income homes. But whether this would effect the gender gap in the church is another thing all together, and remains to be seen, with little bolstering support for these problems even existing to the drastic extent you're pointing to..

I don't know about norms for marrying. So far for most of my friends that's not been the case.

With luv,

BD

Edited May 19, 2013 by BlueDreams

[BlueDreams]

Also according to this pew survey, converts are only slightly less to be male in 2009. It's non-converts that are more likely to be women (which would partially explain UT that has a higher proportion of non-convert mormons).

[Stone holm]

This is completely anectdotal of course....but I had an equal amount of male and female converts while I was out. And my roommate had one more male than female convert. Being women did not effect whether men listened to us. Sometimes it gave us an advantage.

These are national stats....not particular to LDS trends. I don't know if we can say these would hold for lds members in the US. I'm pretty certain the education trend (at least for college) isn't holding to the national levels. Here's an article about that for UVU. I looked up BYU, BYU-I, and BYU-H, and the LDSBC. Both BYU and LDSBC have slightly less women enrolled then men (49% and 48% respectively) BYU-I and BYU-H are closer to national trends (56-57%). So I don't know if you can feasibly say the education gap is sure and steadfast as the overall national trend in the US....especially if you want to include the overall global population....much of which have LDS members in areas that are still struggling with large gender inequalities that greatly disadvantage women.

Again, you'd need to prove to the education gap in a global (or even the U.S) church, match with the us national trends.....not likely. Then you'd need to see what women are actually graduating in. There are specific areas that men continue to dominate in their fields that are also more monetarily sound. Fields that are female dominated (including teaching, especially in the lower levels of school and administration) are generally lower pay-grades as well. So there's still a high likelihood that men will be the major breadwinners (since men still generally make more than women) or simply an increased rate of double-income homes. But whether this would effect the gender gap in the church is another thing all together, and remains to be seen, with little bolstering support for these problems even existing to the drastic extent you're pointing to..

I don't know about norms for marrying. So far for most of my friends that's not been the case.

With luv,

BD

I believe though you are going to encounter more and more LDS households where the woman's financial contribution is as high or higher than the man's and that is besides being a challenge to some male egos, going to be a challenge to the de facto family role model of Mormondom, even if that de facto model is not being preached. Mormondom has the historical experience to overcome this given frequently the women managed the farms and businesses while the men were away on missions, but it may be a painful transition for some.

[BlueDreams]

I believe though you are going to encounter more and more LDS households where the woman's financial contribution is as high or higher than the man's and that is besides being a challenge to some male egos, going to be a challenge to the de facto family role model of Mormondom, even if that de facto model is not being preached.

I'm not saying that won't happen....but that the overall trend isn't indicating that it'll happen in greater proportions than those women who make less, work part time, or don't work at all, put together. Even in iceland, considered to have the best ratings for gender equality, still has an overall significant wage gap while having the same trend of more women than men in tertiary education. Education does not mean higher earning potential unilaterally....an art degree will generally not make as much as an engineering degree. And many female-dominated areas generally make less than male ones. So most likely women's earning potential will remain lower than men's.

Also, to me, worrying about one's wife's earning potential being higher seems antithetical to the idea of equal partnership and union. It's a point of pride of the Benson variety. Many women I've known have been the main bread-winner at certain times as their husbands finish up school. A number have higher degrees than their spouses. It shouldn't matter as long as both are equally moving forward with their ultimate goal of caring for their families. Marriage isn't a competition.

Mormondom has the historical experience to overcome this given frequently the women managed the farms and businesses while the men were away on missions, but it may be a painful transition for some.

Way too old to have great influence on the church. Most are more likely to rely on the far more common trend of women usually graduating first from college or having to support a spouse through grad school, etc....or simply not talking about their wages outside of the home.

With luv,

BD

Edited May 19, 2013 by BlueDreams

[Stone holm]

I'm not saying that won't happen....but that the overall trend isn't indicating that it'll happen in greater proportions than those women who make less, work part time, or don't work at all, put together. Even in iceland, considered to have the best ratings for gender equality, still has an overall significant wage gap while having the same trend of more women than men in tertiary education. Education does not mean higher earning potential unilaterally....an art degree will generally not make as much as an engineering degree. And many female-dominated areas generally make less than male ones. So most likely women's earning potential will remain lower than men's.

Also, to me, worrying about one's wife's earning potential being higher seems antithetical to the idea of equal partnership and union. It's a point of pride of the Benson variety. Many women I've known have been the main bread-winner at certain times as their husbands finish up school. A number have higher degrees than their spouses. It shouldn't matter as long as both are equally moving forward with their ultimate goal of caring for their families. Marriage isn't a competition.

Way too old to have great influence on the church. Most are more likely to rely on the far more common trend of women usually graduating first from college or having to support a spouse through grad school, etc....or simply not talking about their wages outside of the home.

With luv,

BD

Things that shouldn't be a problem, which I agree this one shouldn't, still in the real world have this pesky problem of being a serious problem.

[Duncan]

The two most serious converts the elders have now are both non Canadian nationals, and one is working on his post-doc in Engineering while the other is working on his doctorate in Engineering-we seriously hope they get baptized!

[Avatar4321]

So if you remove the stigma, you think kids would quit going on missions? If that is the case, and there used to be a stigma about girls going on a mission, has there been a change there that is causing girls to sign up?

Im not convinced there is a stigma. I came home from my mission early sick. i was at BYU while age 20. I was never asked why I wasnt on my mission. Most people didn't even ask about it. The stigma is in the mind.

[Avatar4321]

oh man, the BEST missionary in my mission was a sister, from idaho. She was just a super missionary.

I have found that sister missionaries were either amazing or horrible. I think it had alot to do with their motivation to be there. The ones that came to serve the Lord, were great. the ones that came because they couldn't get married, not so good.

[Calm]

Elder Perry spoke a few words today in our ward (he was there for his grandniece's talk before her mission) and stated that in not too long there would be missionaries for every ward, even in Utah.

Just FYI...

[Hamilton Porter]

Girls in DC baptize their non-LDS boyfriends on a monthly basis. I swear.

[Duncan]

Girls in DC baptize their non-LDS boyfriends on a monthly basis. I swear.

I take it you aren't among that group?

I LOVE THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! oh man oh man oh man!

[Scott Lloyd]

Been thinking about this topic for a few days. This is my first opportunity to articulate my thoughts. At the same time, I haven’t really read through the thread yet, so pardon if I say something here that has already been expressed.

Assuming there is a gender gap occasioned by the level of righteousness and spirituality being higher among females in the Church than males, this change in policy pertaining to the ages for missionary service may be the very thing to narrow, not widen, it.

If young women in the Church are more disposed to righteousness and commitment to the gospel, the wave of missionary applications from among them is most likely a reflection of pent-up demand: They can serve missions at a younger age and return in time to be well within the age-window of eligibility for marriage, so they are responding. This is hardly surprising.

For young men, on the other hand, lowering of the age of missionary eligibility has the effect of engaging them in full-time service to the Lord before they have time and opportunity to wander off into forbidden paths at the age when, having so recently gained a measure of independence, they are most apt to do so. Result: a larger pool of righteous men to marry the available righteous women and a concomitant narrowing of the gender gap, if indeed there be such a thing.

[Tacenda]

Been thinking about this topic for a few days. This is my first opportunity to articulate my thoughts. At the same time, I haven’t really read through the thread yet, so pardon if I say something here that has already been expressed.

Assuming there is a gender gap occasioned by the level of righteousness and spirituality being higher among females in the Church than males, this change in policy pertaining to the ages for missionary service may be the very thing to narrow, not widen, it.

If young women in the Church are more disposed to righteousness and commitment to the gospel, the wave of missionary applications from among them is most likely a reflection of pent-up demand: They can serve missions at a younger age and return in time to be well within the age-window of eligibility for marriage, so they are responding. This is hardly surprising.

For young men, on the other hand, lowering of the age of missionary eligibility has the effect of engaging them in full-time service to the Lord before they have time and opportunity to wander off into forbidden paths at the age when, having so recently gained a measure of independence, they are most apt to do so. Result: a larger pool of righteous men to marry the available righteous women and a concomitant narrowing of the gender gap, if indeed there be such a thing.

I thought the same thing, and think that if they don't baptise many on their mission, they themselves will most likely be cemented to the church and therefore bring generations to it. I think it's ingenious for this to have occurred, since there had been a problem with the YSA's going inactive. Now with peer pressure to go on a mission, it's almost better than the numbers missionaries bring in themselves, because they themselves are going to bring in their own posterity!

I've never seen so many sister missionaries in my ward going on missions in my life! It couldn't be a worse time for those that choose not to. Like my son, he's struggling, he does have a testimony and is so tender and spiritual, but has chosen not to go. Not because of me, mind you! But he struggles with some shyness and other things, he also met a girl who he believed he could help at a crucial time in her life, she's not a member. But that relationship has since broken up. But I really feel for him, because it seems every Sacrament meeting brings up missionary work and he sits with his dad and I, and usually has his head in his hands. And won't go to the SA ward. But who can blame him?

[CV75]

These trends are a little discomforting to me. This can't be good for LDS families. Are most women going to be the primary breadwinners in the typical family in a few years? What can be done to reverse these trends and encourage young men to pursue their educations and stay in the church? Will it be the norm for many LDS women to not be able to marry in the faith, due to the gender gap?

I would think there would be a positive correlation between mission, education and breadwinning for either gender. A well-served mission in my mind goes along with the motivation to pursue an education and temporal security. Increased missionary service, education and breadwinning potential inherently aren’t barriers to being the kind of spouse and parent the Lord desires for His people (The Family: A Proclamation…” still applies). But people often see or use them as barriers and in asserting their own agenda, unnecessarily compromise or undermine some in favor of others (mission, education, breadwinning or marriage and family).

So I think that not doing one’s level best creates the gap, as well as the mindset that one gender can only do better at the expense of the other (and other false principles). The Gift of the Holy Ghost of course helps us to do our level best and identify our opportunities and priorities along the way.

[Stone holm]

I would think there would be a positive correlation between mission, education and breadwinning for either gender. A well-served mission in my mind goes along with the motivation to pursue an education and temporal security. Increased missionary service, education and breadwinning potential inherently aren’t barriers to being the kind of spouse and parent the Lord desires for His people (The Family: A Proclamation…” still applies). But people often see or use them as barriers and in asserting their own agenda, unnecessarily compromise or undermine some in favor of others (mission, education, breadwinning or marriage and family).

So I think that not doing one’s level best creates the gap, as well as the mindset that one gender can only do better at the expense of the other (and other false principles). The Gift of the Holy Ghost of course helps us to do our level best and identify our opportunities and priorities along the way.

I wonder what the statistics are about missionaries going on to college. You may be right because on a mission they may develop a greater understanding of the need for education -- and I think they still are entitled to an automatic admission to Church colleges (may be wrong about that). However, a mission can complicate and sometimes result in the loss of scholarships. i know with one of my sons who was considering one of the military academies we could not obtain an assurance that they would hold open a slot if he went off on a mission, and non-LDS Colleges sometimes take a dim view of the gap between HS and College, or between your Freshman year in college and later years as far as maintaining scholarships. I think lowering the age will not only help increase the pool of young men who can pass the ecclesiastical interview, but also make college planning a little simpler.

[CV75]

I wonder what the statistics are about missionaries going on to college.

I'm sure the principle would be borne out in the Perpetual Education Fund statistics--the drive to progress is a natural outgrowth of serving the Lord loyally for two years, and the funds make the opportunity possible.

[CV75]

However, a mission can complicate and sometimes result in the loss of scholarships.

I find it interesting that this is a problem affecting one's desire for mission and/or eductaion in wealthier nations, but in poorer nations, the PEF leverages one's exisitng desire to serve the Lord into eductaional opportunities.

[CV75]

I think lowering the age will not only help increase the pool of young men who can pass the ecclesiastical interview, but also make college planning a little simpler.

I agree, for those nations where the missionaries are not already called at age 18.