Another High Priest Discussion

[Calm]

My sin is greater than everyone else's, I'm addicted to tobacco.

There are so many things that are worse in my opinion. Addictions---where one is fighting against one's own brain chemistry---are significantly different than sins that are willingly and eagerly embraced. From the way you have presented yourself on the board, it seems to me you likely go out of your way to ensure that your smoking does not cause problems for others (besides those who feel bad about the hardship it causes you)...again so much better than sins that intentionally harm others, are malicious in their intent, etc.

But I also think that when we start 'rating' sins, we miss the whole point and can actually add a burden or discount the effect sin has. We should treat our sins individually by what effect they have on us, not as some generic action that on average causes some specified effect on so many people....in other words we should view our sins in an 'intimate' way rather than a 'clinical' or 'academic' way so we understand better the cost they pose to us and our loved ones and don't diminish or exaggerate in this area. That way we are better prepared to do what we need to overcome them...even if we have to accept inspiration from the Spirit that overcoming is something that God will grant us in the future and not immediately.

[Calm]

If only porn addiction carried a smell like cigarettes. Change the game completely...

Life would be very different if all things that we did as well as the state of our hearts and minds were easily seen by those around us rather than the masks so many of us choose to wear. Life would be very different if internal information was easily conveyed to others....unfortunately when it comes to humans, even those trying their hardest to share their 'inner self', to be transparent more often fail at the endeavour than succeed...at least when it comes to fully exposing one's 'true' self.

If people truly viewed their relationship with God in the same way as they imagine what the world would be like if nothing was hidden, I think life would be significantly different as well, but too many of us act as if we can hide the state of our feelings and beliefs from God or manipulate God as well as from our fellowmen.

Knowing ourselves and others in the way God does is something that does belong to our future though....and it contributes, I suspect, to whether people anticipate their future as heaven or hell.

[Avatar4321]

This is where I am at. I just skip PH meetings. My sin is greater than everyone else's, I'm addicted to tobacco.

how is skipping PH meetings going to change anything then?

[Avatar4321]

Life would be very different if all things that we did as well as the state of our hearts and minds were easily seen by those around us rather than the masks so many of us choose to wear. Life would be very different if internal information was easily conveyed to others....unfortunately when it comes to humans, even those trying their hardest to share their 'inner self', to be transparent more often fail at the endeavour than succeed...at least when it comes to fully exposing one's 'true' self.

If people truly viewed their relationship with God in the same way as they imagine what the world would be like if nothing was hidden, I think life would be significantly different as well, but too many of us act as if we can hide the state of our feelings and beliefs from God or manipulate God as well as from our fellowmen.

Knowing ourselves and others in the way God does is something that does belong to our future though....and it contributes, I suspect, to whether people anticipate their future as heaven or hell.

Youre absolutely right here. I try to share who I am very often and I dont come across how i feel inside. It's very frustrating.

And we definitely cant hide the truth from God. We shouldnt try

[rodheadlee]

how is skipping PH meetings going to change anything then?

It's not, I just don't feel comfortable going to PH. I used to love going until I was told I won't be healed of my particular addiction when I get my new body. The lame shall walk, the blind shall see but us smokers are not to be healed. It's not like I haven't been fighting the fight. I've channeled all of my addictions into this corner I can't seem to get out of. I have even slid back into drinking coffee. But I'll tell you there are a lot worse addictions than coffee and cigarettes. I hate to derail the thread but we carry the letter of the law too far. The way I see things is I could have a PH leader or a Bishop who doesn't even believe in what he is doing holding me back from getting a TR or my Patriarchal Blessing. I love Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and His Church and I have had a couple of Bishops who believe in what they are doing, I just wasn't able to stay there. I hate myself for murmuring against the Church because it give the Enemy ammo for his gun. Carry On.

[ERayR]

It's not, I just don't feel comfortable going to PH. I used to love going until I was told I won't be healed of my particular addiction when I get my new body. The lame shall walk, the blind shall see but us smokers are not to be healed. It's not like I haven't been fighting the fight. I've channeled all of my addictions into this corner I can't seem to get out of. I have even slid back into drinking coffee. But I'll tell you there are a lot worse addictions than coffee and cigarettes. I hate to derail the thread but we carry the letter of the law too far. The way I see things is I could have a PH leader or a Bishop who doesn't even believe in what he is doing holding me back from getting a TR or my Patriarchal Blessing. I love Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and His Church and I have had a couple of Bishops who believe in what they are doing, I just wasn't able to stay there. I hate myself for murmuring against the Church because it give the Enemy ammo for his gun. Carry On.

False doctrine comes from many places and unfortunately PH meeting is one of them.

[Tacenda]

It's not, I just don't feel comfortable going to PH. I used to love going until I was told I won't be healed of my particular addiction when I get my new body. The lame shall walk, the blind shall see but us smokers are not to be healed. It's not like I haven't been fighting the fight. I've channeled all of my addictions into this corner I can't seem to get out of. I have even slid back into drinking coffee. But I'll tell you there are a lot worse addictions than coffee and cigarettes. I hate to derail the thread but we carry the letter of the law too far. The way I see things is I could have a PH leader or a Bishop who doesn't even believe in what he is doing holding me back from getting a TR or my Patriarchal Blessing. I love Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and His Church and I have had a couple of Bishops who believe in what they are doing, I just wasn't able to stay there. I hate myself for murmuring against the Church because it give the Enemy ammo for his gun. Carry On.

I'd always heard that sentiment, to give up addictions because they will go with us in the afterlife. I'll bet it got started by a well meaning leader, and took off. Maybe in his mind it would get the person to quit. But if true, it might be like hell for quite a few. My Diet Dr. Pepper habit is horrendous. And I'm serious, it's been a thorn or crux in my life. It first started out while fairly young, but with various caffeinated beverages. Smoking is the hardest to quit in my opinion, but God looks on the heart, I totally think he'll cleanse you from the addiction. My two brothers are addicted as well. Rodheadlee, you're a saint to me, go knock 'em dead in priesthood, according to my husband, they're already half asleep in HP.

[Doctrine 612]

I'd always heard that sentiment, to give up addictions because they will go with us in the afterlife. I'll bet it got started by a well meaning leader, and took off. Maybe in his mind it would get the person to quit. But if true, it might be like hell for quite a few. My Diet Dr. Pepper habit is horrendous. And I'm serious, it's been a thorn or crux in my life. It first started out while fairly young, but with various caffeinated beverages. Smoking is the hardest to quit in my opinion, but God looks on the heart, I totally think he'll cleanse you from the addiction. My two brothers are addicted as well. Rodheadlee, you're a saint to me, go knock 'em dead in priesthood, according to my husband, they're already half asleep in HP.

I read last year that caffeine is not apart of the words of wisdom then you don't have to worry

[Avatar4321]

It's not, I just don't feel comfortable going to PH. I used to love going until I was told I won't be healed of my particular addiction when I get my new body. The lame shall walk, the blind shall see but us smokers are not to be healed. It's not like I haven't been fighting the fight. I've channeled all of my addictions into this corner I can't seem to get out of. I have even slid back into drinking coffee. But I'll tell you there are a lot worse addictions than coffee and cigarettes. I hate to derail the thread but we carry the letter of the law too far. The way I see things is I could have a PH leader or a Bishop who doesn't even believe in what he is doing holding me back from getting a TR or my Patriarchal Blessing. I love Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and His Church and I have had a couple of Bishops who believe in what they are doing, I just wasn't able to stay there. I hate myself for murmuring against the Church because it give the Enemy ammo for his gun. Carry On.

Smokers can be healed now. Why would they be any less healed in the resurrection?

[Ahab]

I'd always heard that sentiment, to give up addictions because they will go with us in the afterlife. I'll bet it got started by a well meaning leader, and took off. Maybe in his mind it would get the person to quit. But if true, it might be like hell for quite a few. My Diet Dr. Pepper habit is horrendous. And I'm serious, it's been a thorn or crux in my life. It first started out while fairly young, but with various caffeinated beverages. Smoking is the hardest to quit in my opinion, but God looks on the heart, I totally think he'll cleanse you from the addiction. My two brothers are addicted as well. Rodheadlee, you're a saint to me, go knock 'em dead in priesthood, according to my husband, they're already half asleep in HP.

The addictions will go with you in the sense that you will still crave those things that you really like, whatever you like. In your case you'll still want to drink Dr. Pepper after you die, so unless you can get it then your craving will go unsatisifed. Unless, as you seem to think, God will simply wipe away that craving so that you won't really want any more Dr. Pepper. I guess you'll just have to wait and see. I like lots of foods but I don't ever want to feel like I just have to have something in particular.

[ERayR]

I read last year that caffeine is not apart of the words of wisdom then you don't have to worry

That may be so but it is still addictive so I would say that while not enumerated it still might be worth worrying over.

[ERayR]

The addictions will go with you in the sense that you will still crave those things that you really like, whatever you like. In your case you'll still want to drink Dr. Pepper after you die, so unless you can get it then your craving will go unsatisifed. Unless, as you seem to think, God will simply wipe away that craving so that you won't really want any more Dr. Pepper. I guess you'll just have to wait and see. I like lots of foods but I don't ever want to feel like I just have to have something in particular.

Tacenda be sure and have a coupe of cases buried with you. Its getting close enough to the millennium that with careful rationing it might tide you over.

[Ahab]

That may be so but it is still addictive so I would say that while not enumerated it still might be worth worrying over.

It's addicting to some but not to others. I can go just fine for a long time without any and when I have some it's only because I want it, rather than because my body will go into a fit if I don't have it.

The thing that makes the Word of Wisdom stand out for me is that it is a general rule that applies to all without leaving any room for exceptions, so I'd rather the general membership not add any more to our Lord's restrictions than what he has already laid out. It's bad enough that I have to avoid certain things because the weakest among the saints can't handle them when I can handle them all perfectly well without any problems, food wise. I can eat or drink lots of caffeine and still go right to sleep so it's not always something that keeps people awake or alert.

[Doctrine 612]

That may be so but it is still addictive so I would say that while not enumerated it still might be worth worrying over.

Your right I choose not to drink much soda with caffeine because it causes my stress and blood pressure to rise. But also a nice cold can of coke sure taste sweet and good.

[rongo]

As usual I can't remember where I read it but I did read somewhere that Brigum Young once said that he was never ordained a HP. While it seems common practice today that almost every calling be precieded by a lesser calling (yes I know that technically all callings are lateral but I think you should be able to know what I'm talking about!), it hasn't always been that way. I think that it just seems to work out that way! I believe that it would be safe to say that all our present GAs have been ordained HPs at sometime.

Here is it:

Brigham Young, April 6, 1853, 1:137 --- Let me ask the High Priests' Quorum a question, in order to bring out the thing I wish to lay before you. I ask the High Priests, from whence does the Apostleship grow? Does it grow out of the High Priesthood? I will venture to say, if I was not here to-day, and this question was proposed for debate, you would find the Elders in this congregation, perhaps, nearly equally divided on the point. There would be as many High Priests to say the Apostleship grows out of the High Priesthood, as there would to say it does not. Let me answer the question . . . Now will it cause some of you to marvel that I was not ordained a High Priest before I was ordained an Apostle? Brother Kimball and myself were never ordained High Priests. How wonderful! I was going to say how little some of the brethren understood the Priesthood, after the Twelve were called. In our early career in this Church, on one occasion, in one of our Councils, we were telling about some of the Twelve wanting to ordain us High Priests, and what I said to brother Patten when he wanted to ordain me in York State: said I, brother Patten, wait until I can lift my hand to heaven and say, I have magnified the office of an Elder. After our conversation was over in the Council, some of the brethren began to query, and said we ought to be ordained High Priests; at the same time I did not consider that an Apostle needed to be ordained a High Priest, an Elder, or a Teacher. I did not express my views on the subject, at that time, but thought I would hear what brother Joseph would say about it. It was William E. McLellin who told Joseph, that I and Heber were not ordained High Priests, and wanted to know if it should not be done. Said Joseph, "Will you insult the Priesthood? Is that all the knowledge you have of the office of an Apostle? Do you not know that the man who receives the Apostleship, receives all the keys that ever were, or that can be, conferred upon mortal man? What are you talking about? I am astonished!" Nothing more was said about it.

Similarly, we sent a missionary out who held the office of teacher before his ordination as an elder (he was from Brazil). The stake presidency said that we needed to first ordain him to be a priest before the Melchizedek priesthood could be conferred. I felt that if the bishop (me) and stake president had interviewed him and authorized his ordination, then it could take place (similar to BY and HCK above). No matter ---- I had a recent convert ordain him to be a priest, and then our high councilor ordained him to be an elder.

[Avatar4321]

Here is it: Similarly, we sent a missionary out who held the office of teacher before his ordination as an elder (he was from Brazil). The stake presidency said that we needed to first ordain him to be a priest before the Melchizedek priesthood could be conferred. I felt that if the bishop (me) and stake president had interviewed him and authorized his ordination, then it could take place (similar to BY and HCK above). No matter ---- I had a recent convert ordain him to be a priest, and then our high councilor ordained him to be an elder.

I think you are correct. We don't ordain adult males to the office of deacon first, when we confer the aaronic priesthood. We ordain them to the office of priest. When we have the priesthood, we are ordained to whatever office the Lord calls us to. We dont have to be another office first.

[Kenngo1969]

Re: rongo's post #90, above.

Although Brother Brigham was merely trying to convey the message that one needn't be ordained a High Priest prior to receiving the Apostleship, his words, nonetheless, remind me of Elder McConkie's classic, "Only An Elder." Here's an excerpt:

Brethren, what think ye of the office of an elder? Someone asks: “What office do you hold in the Church? What is your priesthood position?” An answer comes: “Oh, I’m only an elder.”

Only an elder! Only the title by which a member of the Council of the Twelve is proud to be addressed; only the title which honors the President of the Church, who is designated by revelation as the first elder (see D&C 20:2, 5; only the office to which millions of persons are ordained in the vicarious ordinances of the holy temples.

Only an elder! Only the office which enables a man to enter the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and to have his wife and children bound to him with an everlasting tie; only the office which prepares a man to be a natural patriarch to his posterity and to hold dominion in the house of Israel forever; only the office required for the receipt of the fullness of the blessings in the house of the Lord; only the office which opens the door to eternal exaltation in the highest heaven of the celestial world, where man becomes as God is.

Only an elder! Only a person ordained to preach the gospel, build up the kingdom, and perfect the Saints; only a minister whose every word is scripture; only the holder of that office which carries the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, of having the heavens opened, and of communing with the general assembly and Church of the Firstborn, and of enjoying the communion and presence of God the Father and Jesus, the mediator of the new covenant. (See D&C 107:19).

Only an elder! Every elder in the Church holds as much priesthood as the President of the Church. No apostle can or will rise higher in eternity than the faithful elder who lives the fullness of the gospel law.

Here's a link to the whole address: https://www.lds.org/ensign/1975/06/only-an-elder?lang=eng

I'm also reminded of Elder McConkie's "My Missionary Commission" (can't find the original source, but here it is):

My Missionary Commission

By Elder Bruce R. McConkie

I am called of God. My authority is above that of kings of the earth. By revelation I have been selected as a personal representative of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is my master and He has chosen me to represent Him--to stand in His place, to say and do what He Himself would say and do if He personally were ministering to the very people to whom He has sent me. My voice is His voice, and my acts are His acts; my doctrine is His doctrine. My Commission is to do what He wants done; To say what He wants said; to be a living modern witness in word and in deed of the divinity of his great and marvelous Latter-day work. How great is my calling!

Sorry about all this irrelevant stuff about Elders on a thread about High Priests. (Occasionally, I've been pressed into service with the High Priests when they've found themselves short of manpower, and I've been known to be invited the odd High Priest function, even though I jokingly refer to myself as a "Low Priest." ) (The good news, though, is that the office of Elder is subsumed into that of High Priest, so everything I say above is relevant to that office, as well.)

[ERayR]

Your right I choose not to drink much soda with caffeine because it causes my stress and blood pressure to rise. But also a nice cold can of coke sure taste sweet and good.

Your preference in soft drinks is baffling to me. Now if you had said Dr. Pepper Cherry.

[ERayR]

To simplify (not too far I hope) we have two priesthoods today. The Aaronic and the Melchizedek. The divisions within those two priesthoods are offices of responsibility. When called to one of those offices one receives the keys pertaining to ones office. The reason nobody is called to an apostleship without being ordained a High Priest today is that before they have been called as an Apostle they have filled callings which require the authority of an High Priest. Brigham Young and Heber Kimball obviously did not.

Edited May 23, 2013 by ERayR

[rongo]

A joker in the deck is Heber C. Kimball's son, Joseph, who was ordained to the office of High Priest at six years of age. He felt an unmistakable prompting to do this (he was a counselor to Brigham Young at the time) while little Joseph was gravely ill, and while he pondered about it, his stake president knocked on his door and said, awkwardly and embarrassed, that he needed to talk to him. He had an inexplicable, strong prompting that they needed to ordain his little boy to be a high priest. This anecdote was given by HCK at Joseph's funeral.

Interesting, because he wasn't even baptized ---- let alone holding AP or MP.

Anything can be done through priesthood keys. Remember President Packer's "battlefield commission" anecdote?

[ERayR]

A joker in the deck is Heber C. Kimball's son, Joseph, who was ordained to the office of High Priest at six years of age. He felt an unmistakable prompting to do this (he was a counselor to Brigham Young at the time) while little Joseph was gravely ill, and while he pondered about it, his stake president knocked on his door and said, awkwardly and embarrassed, that he needed to talk to him. He had an inexplicable, strong prompting that they needed to ordain his little boy to be a high priest. This anecdote was given by HCK at Joseph's funeral.

Interesting, because he wasn't even baptized ---- let alone holding AP or MP.

Anything can be done through priesthood keys. Remember President Packer's "battlefield commission" anecdote?

All is an appendage of the priesthood.

[rongo]

All is an appendage of the priesthood.

Well, and John the Baptist was given the gift of the Holy Ghost in the womb, and was ordained at eight days old. All is an appendage of the priesthood, as you say, and all can be authorized by proper priesthood keys.

[ERayR]

Well, and John the Baptist was given the gift of the Holy Ghost in the womb, and was ordained at eight days old. All is an appendage of the priesthood, as you say, and all can be authorized by proper priesthood keys.

In a time when sheer numbers require organization and procedure to prevent chaos anything unusual often causes consternation.

[Tacenda]

Your preference in soft drinks is baffling to me. Now if you had said Dr. Pepper Cherry.

I remember back in the early 80's when they changed Coke to the new Coke, so terrible! But I'm now a Dr. Pepper fan, but have enjoyed, so many others from Tab to Pepsi Light to Diet Coke to now Diet Dr. Pepper.

[Avatar4321]

I remember back in the early 80's when they changed Coke to the new Coke, so terrible! But I'm now a Dr. Pepper fan, but have enjoyed, so many others from Tab to Pepsi Light to Diet Coke to now Diet Dr. Pepper.

I didnt know the office of high priest had anything to do with soda preference;)