Another High Priest Discussion

[Five Solas]

Right, that is exactly the chapter I had in mind. Paul respects the office of high priest, despite being ill-treated in a manner that was against the law of Moses

If calling a high priest a "whitewashed wall" (Acts 23:3) constitutes respect--then maybe you have a point, volgadon. Note that in v. 5, Paul doesn't exactly retract his previous language.

Do you agree with Glenn101 that the negative portrayals of high priests in the New Testament are because these priests were "called according to the Mosaic law"? I'm really intrigued by this, and looking forward to an answer (post #47 on the tread).

--Erik

Edited May 6, 2013 by Five Solas

[Stargazer]

If calling a high priest a "whitewashed wall" (Acts 23:3) constitutes respect--then maybe you have a point, volgadon. Note that in v. 5, Paul doesn't exactly retract his previous language.

Do you agree with Glenn101 that the negative portrayals of high priests in the New Testament are because these priests were "called according to the Mosaic law"? I'm really intrigued by this, and looking forward to an answer (post #47 on the tread).

--Erik

And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth.

3 Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?

4 And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God’s high priest?

5 Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

Apparently Paul spoke out in anger at the unlawful treatment (did he not have a right to do so?), and then apologized. It appears that he was fully aware of who Ananias was, even though he said "Oops, didn't know he was the high priest".

Was Paul lying? Of course he was. Shall we condemn him therefore? I shall not.

[volgadon]

If calling a high priest a "whitewashed wall" (Acts 23:3) constitutes respect--then maybe you have a point, volgadon. Note that in v. 5, Paul doesn't exactly retract his previous language.

Then Paul said, “I did not know, brethren, that he was the high priest; for it is written, ‘You shall not speak evil of a ruler of your people.’”

Paul states that he would not have applied it to Ananias had he known his identity, this due to his being the high priest. As such he demands respect, even when clearly in the wrong.

Do you agree with Glenn101 that the negative portrayals of high priests in the New Testament are because these priests were "called according to the Mosaic law"? I'm really intrigued by this, and looking forward to an answer (post #47 on the tread).

--Erik

Erik, I don't play those games. That distraction didn't work for you last time, and won't work here.

[Stargazer]

The high priest of the LeviticalAaronic Order is not the high priest of the Melchizedek. The NT calls Jesus high priest, and he clearly cannot be high priest of the Levitical Order (he is not only not a Cohen, but also not a Levite). So the offices are distinct, and both mentioned in the OT and/or NT. Whether there were other Melchizedek high priests in those days or not, we are not told.

[Five Solas]

Was Paul lying? Of course he was.

Doesn't bode well for ~ 1/2 the New Testament books attributed to Paul, does it Stargazer?

--Erik

[Five Solas]

Then Paul said, “I did not know, brethren, that he was the high priest; for it is written, ‘You shall not speak evil of a ruler of your people.’”

Paul states that he would not have applied it to Ananias had he known his identity, this due to his being the high priest. As such he demands respect, even when clearly in the wrong.

Where's the apology? Where does Paul say he's sorry and asks Ananias for forgiveness? Sure would have been a big help to your argument, volgadon

;0)

Sure hope none of this detracts us from the question in post #47...

--Erik

[volgadon]

Where's the apology? Where does Paul say he's sorry and asks Ananias for forgiveness? Sure would have been a big help to your argument, volgadon

;0)

My argument does very well without your help, thankee. Don't let any of that deter you from addressing it, especially the evidence from John.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

In my home ward growing up, the EQ and HP met together as a group. I'm assuming it was because we had very few Elders.

My new Ward does that sometimes.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I know.

I tend to post to all, since this is "pubic forum". Edited May 6, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[cdowis]

In my stake we have young men meet with young men (like EQ) and older fellas meet with older fellas, regardless of priesthood ordination. My Dad is one of the oldest men in the stake and he is an Elder. It seems weird to me that you only get to be a High Priest if and only if you get to be in a Bishopric or on the High Council.

I was ordain a HP when they called me as an assistant to the HP group leader.

[cdowis]

Paul most certainly was not a high priest called after the Jewish tradition. He may have been called as a Christian High Priest.

Hebrews 7:12

For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Paul most certainly was not a high priest called after the Jewish tradition. He may have been called as a Christian High Priest.

Glenn

If I remember my history correctly, once the scales fell from his eyes, (as instructed) he sought out a High Priest. It was a while before some would even meet with him out of fear. At the time of his conversion he worked for the Sanhedrin, looking for those he thought was trying to destroy his faith.

Speaking of the Priesthood, I have been in the Hospital for a few days...my son was playing basketball Saturday night, and they asked "how things were going"? Next thing I know I had six missionaries show up at the hospital asking if they should give me a blessing...thankfully I have a private room, so they gave me a blessing. I hope it worked because I have to do a similar at GA Tech tomorrow. When my Bishop showed up last night I was making fun of GA Tech...I am a Georgia fan, so it was fun.

Edited May 9, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[mrmendoza]

Doctrine and Covenants 84:63 And as I said unto mine apostles, even so I say unto you, for you are mine apostles, even God’s high priests; ye are they whom my Father hath given me; ye are my friends;

Also, section 102 of the Doctrine and Covenants details the setting up of the Council of the Twelve Apostles, from among the high priests.

Glenn

while it's true now that all the apostles had been previously ordained High Priest, as I believe also are all the members of the Quorems of the Seventy, my understanding is that it is not a mandatory preriquisite for either office.See D&C 20: 38

38 The ^aduty of the elders, priests, teachers, deacons, and members of the church of Christ—An ^bapostle is an ^celder, and it is his calling to ^dbaptize;...

As usual I can't remember where I read it but I did read somewhere that Brigum Young once said that he was never ordained a HP. While it seems common practice today that almost every calling be precieded by a lesser calling (yes I know that technically all callings are lateral but I think you should be able to know what I'm talking about!), it hasn't always been that way. I think that it just seems to work out that way! I believe that it would be safe to say that all our present GAs have been ordained HPs at sometime.

[mrmendoza]

When I was a member of the EQ presidentcy, we had a fellow come into the ward who was 40. We of the EQ Presidentcy were somewhat taken aback when we heard that he wanted to attend the HPG! I guess we thought that he was being arrogent and that he thought he was to good for the EQ. we had all known many older brethern who had attended the EQ and it just seemed wrong that someone would ask to meet with the HP when he was not a HP!

That was then. A few years later when I turned 40 things seemed to change. The new EQ Presidency all seemed to be fresh out of collage! they spoke about things that were beyond my understanding! I'm not talking about basic Gosple principles, but they were trying to show how Gosple principles were related to quantom physics!

At that point I asked to meet with the HP! For almost 10 yrs. I was the HPG instructor while still an Elder. After that I was called to be HPG Leader, and was ordained a HP. While I'm no longer the Group leader I do share the position of instructor for the group with another brother who may be a couple of years younger then me, he has never been ordained a HP.

I read somewhere that BY once said that when a brother gets to old to do anything, he should be ordained a High Priest and put out to pasture, or something to that effect. Of course I'm getting old and I can't be sure if that was an accurate quote!

[Kenngo1969]

. . . We have an enormous primary, though . . .

Give 'em time! They'll get to be high priests . . . eventually!

[Kenngo1969]

oh I know that! not even I as well! ha! I just wanted counsel or advice or an offer for a blessing, I don't like to ask I dunno I just felt the cold shoulder but as I say it shouldn't be like that

Your leaders, it seems, can't win for losing. You can't be bothered to actually ask for a blessing, you simply want to ding them on a public forum (albeit anonymously) for failing to read your mind? Whatever your leaders may leave to be desired, it doesn't seem as though you're exactly being fair to them in this instance. Oh, and ... Cue Don Henley's Dirty Laundry in ... 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

[Ahab]

I know this topic has been talked about before many many times but I thought I share this interesting discussion going on in our stake.

It has come to the attention of the stake that men ( age not a factor ) have been asked to attend the high priest group but still remain a elder. So the question was asked what to do, leave them as elders or ordain them as high priest.

The answer is ordain them high priest after they have served in the group for sometime.

1 year-3 years.

And after this time that it is found that the man wishes to return to the elders then he could.

I thought this was a good choice, because it helps them know where they stand and belong and not remain in a state of limbo. And the time served allows them to fulfill alma 13.

Your thoughts.

I wasn't asked but I started attending the high priest group at about age 40 just because most of the elders were so immature and I felt a lot more comfortable with the older men. I wasn't ordained to be a high priest until I was 45, I think, and I think it was only because I was asked to serve in a high priest group leadership position.

[ERayR]

I wasn't asked but I started attending the high priest group at about age 40 just because most of the elders were so immature and I felt a lot more comfortable with the older men. I wasn't ordained to be a high priest until I was 45, I think, and I think it was only because I was asked to serve in a high priest group leadership position.

That would be a good reason to be ordained a HP.

[Glenn101]

Today's lesson which in my ward was really about parenting is an example of why the leder elders should still meet with the younger elders. If I had been meeting with all of the gray and hoary high priests, those elders would not have had the benefit of my superior mistakes.

Glenn

[urroner]

"leder elders"

Glenn

A leder elder, is that a elder who's all mixed up or is it an elder with "led" in their pants. In my case, it would be both..

You can lead a horse to water, but a pencil must be lead.

[DH]

As far as I know, there's nothing inherently age-based about the Melchizedek Priesthood quorums. I was raised with the understanding that I might be an elder for my entire adult life, and never become a high priest. Or that one could become a high priest at a young age. Indeed, my brother-in-law became a high priest when he was in his twenties, when he was called to be a bishop. If we do not automatically "advance" men to the High Priests' Group because of their age, then there will be more older/mature men in the Elders' Quorum, and nobody need feel out of place. The word "elder" does mean, well, elder (as opposed to younger), after all!

Edited May 18, 2013 by DH

[rodheadlee]

I can agree with that. Just do not think they will stay active very long if they feel out of place. Have seen a few guys come to church occasionally and could tell they felt out of place. Another example of that is a guy who will not attend church because he is only an Aaronic Priesthood holder. Regardless if that is just an excuse, it illustrates a good point. People do not want to attend church if they are not comfortable.

This is where I am at. I just skip PH meetings. My sin is greater than everyone else's, I'm addicted to tobacco.

Edited May 19, 2013 by rodheadlee

[Five Solas]

My sin is greater than everyone else's, I'm addicted to tobacco.

Verbal irony, beautifully done, rodheadlee. If only porn addiction carried a smell like cigarettes. Change the game completely...

;0)

--Erik

[Five Solas]

while it's true now that all the apostles had been previously ordained High Priest, as I believe also are all the members of the Quorems of the Seventy, my understanding is that it is not a mandatory preriquisite for either office.See D&C 20: 38

duty of the elders, priests, teachers, deacons, and members of the church of Christ—An ^bapostle is an ^celder, and it is his calling to ^dbaptize;...

As usual I can't remember where I read it but I did read somewhere that Brigum Young once said that he was never ordained a HP. While it seems common practice today that almost every calling be precieded by a lesser calling (yes I know that technically all callings are lateral but I think you should be able to know what I'm talking about!), it hasn't always been that way. I think that it just seems to work out that way! I believe that it would be safe to say that all our present GAs have been ordained HPs at sometime.

The previous explanation was suspiciously neat & tidy. Thanks mrmendoza,

--Erik

[dgd]

This is where I am at. I just skip PH meetings. My sin is greater than everyone else's, I'm addicted to tobacco.

A brother in my ward recently passed away. He and his wife had not been very active and I think it was because one or both smoked. I said to my wife something along the lines of "Imagine what it would be like if all our sins had a distinctive smell attached to them." Many sins are far worse than smoking but lack that distinctive odour ...

I can agree with that. Just do not think they will stay active very long if they feel out of place. Have seen a few guys come to church occasionally and could tell they felt out of place. Another example of that is a guy who will not attend church because he is only an Aaronic Priesthood holder. Regardless if that is just an excuse, it illustrates a good point. People do not want to attend church if they are not comfortable.

I attend church because it is through the church that all the blessings of the atonement are available to me, not becuase it is (always) comfortable. Many years ago my wife decided to share my sins with several of her church friends. I suspect that many in a similar situation would have stopped attending. I told my bishop about this and expressed to him something along the lines of "Where else would I go?"

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.