Do Ends Ever Justify Means In Mormonism

[ERayR]

I could do it if my kids were threatened for sure. But there is a big difference between

A) Killing someone because your kids are threatened

and

B) Killing someone because God told you the person was a threat to you children

B is a big no-no for me.

Threat B can be as valid as threat A and if God told me it was then. . Well I just don't argue with God. Well most of the time anyway.

[ERayR]

but I only would have killed Laban if I thought I should kill Laban, not because I thought God wanted me to kill Laban.

If God told me I should (not that I just thought he did) then I I would know it should be done. How do I get involved with these ___ hypotheticals anyway?

[CASteinman]

Obviously I don't know exactly what Nephi was thinking at the time, but I only would have killed Laban if I thought I should kill Laban, not because I thought God wanted me to kill Laban.

Would you have thought you should kill him if God told you to?

If the situation was "I don't think I should kill Laban" and I thought God was telling me I should kill him, I probably would have not killed him, because I would have a very hard time being sure where that "inspiration" was coming from (myself because I hate Laban, Satan, or God).

I can certainly understand that. Maybe Nephi didn't have those same compunctions or maybe it was more clear than you have experienced.

[Bikeemikey]

On many Sundays we sit in Church and sing the words, "Do what is right let the consequence follow.." In most countries if you slew a drunk who was passed out at the curb and the evidence of your deeds came to light you would be eligible to be convicted of murder. Yet in the early chapters of the BOM one of the most revered personages of that scripture does just that. So the question arises does ends ever justify the means?

Yep... That's why Nephi got the ok to kill Laban.

[Stone holm]

Would you have thought you should kill him if God told you to?

I can certainly understand that. Maybe Nephi didn't have those same compunctions or maybe it was more clear than you have experienced.

I think this just one of those times which we moderns have a hard time getting our heads around because, I think, most of us today would say that anyone who claimed that God had told them to slay some drunk lying in the gutter was criminally insane...period...but the same would have been true of our feelings about OT prophets saying God was commanding people to commit genocide as well and probably killing witches.

[Kenngo1969]

It this kind of idea that scares the [poop] out of me. It think it's a very dangerous idea. Some crackpot takes this idea and runs with it and starts killing children to assure their exaltation. Some mental disturbed parent kills their kids out of love so they can be exalted. It's a horrible, horrid concept to say God's purposes are "better served by not allowing children to reach the age of accountability."

If there is a God who is worth worshiping, He weeps when a child dies, and would never think such death better served His purposes.

Well, I hate to sound callous, but we're all gonna die sometime. So I guess no death, whether soon or late, from your perspective, serves His purposes. The reality is from the moment we're born, we're headed, inexorably and inevitably (some of us sooner, and some of us later), toward death. You, apparently, are operating from a paradigm that excludes God and His Will from the equation, and which makes this life the end-all-and-the-be-all of existence. If I were operating from such a paradigm, I, too, would think that any being life cut "short" (whatever arbitrary number that happens to be) would seriously suck. Would I miss my children if they were to predecease me? Sure. Would my parents miss me if I were to predecease them? I hope so. But the only thing we can do is the best we can to magnify whatever time God has given us.

And yeah, I happen to think that it's pretty cool that the Atonement covers any wrongdoing committed by children before they reach the age of accountability, and that they will be welcomed back Home into the Loving Arms of Their Heavenly Father when they depart this life.

P.S.: And, as I think you know, I'm not justifying crackpots, Brian. I also believe the Scripture which says that if anyone should offend a little child, it would be better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck and that he were drowned in the depths of the sea. And yes, I do mourn seemingly-untimely (from a mortal perspective) deaths.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

So you would not actually have done as Nephi did. Why is that?

He knows better than God, silly!

[Kenngo1969]

http://www.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu//publications/pdf/jbms/792565429-1-1.pdf

http://www.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/jbms/?vol=16&num=1&id=430

Cal has already posted the first of these (but in the interest of redundancy ) ... for those of you who seem hell-- Uh, heck-benton superimposing 21st-century U.S. social and legal norms and mores onto a circa-600 BC event in another part of the world ...

[Kenngo1969]

I think this just one of those times which we moderns have a hard time getting our heads around because, I think, most of us today would say that anyone who claimed that God had told them to slay some drunk lying in the gutter was criminally insane...period ...

And if he'd stolen your property and tried to kill you? Uh-huh. I thought as much.

[Brian 2.0]

He knows better than God, silly!

I'm saying it's silly for me think I know with 100% assurity that the inspiration to kill the man was from God. And it'd be silly for me to kill someone because someone or something else besides God promted me to do it.

But maybe Nephi's experience was such that he knew with 100% assurity that his instruction was from God. I just don't know what that experience would be.

[pogi]

Why should the law of the land matter at all? The legality or cultural acceptance of something doesn't make it all the sudden okay.

Cultural norms of the day might be somewhat of an excuse for a person living in that day, but not for God. I could care less whether back in the day the entire world thought it appropriate and necessary to disembowel a cat if it ate your dinner off your plate, I would still expect God to be more progressive than those people and never command the disemboweling of a cat.

The problem here is that you expect God to behave according to your personal morals, cultural conditioning, and limited perspective. Have you ever considered that God may be even more progressive than yourself? What may seem bizarre or cruel in a mortal and temporal sense, might make a lot more sense from an immortal and eternal perspective in the eyes of a perfectly just and perfectly merciful being.

Edited April 20, 2013 by pogi

[pogi]

On many Sundays we sit in Church and sing the words, "Do what is right let the consequence follow.." In most countries if you slew a drunk who was passed out at the curb and the evidence of your deeds came to light you would be eligible to be convicted of murder. Yet in the early chapters of the BOM one of the most revered personages of that scripture does just that. So the question arises does ends ever justify the means?

Justified in who's eyes? Perhaps not in man's eyes, but in the eyes of God "the right" is always justified. Whatever consequences we, or others, suffer because of our obedience to God in mortality will be reconciled in eternity.

This belief makes religion both the greatest threat to mankind and it's only saving grace at the same time.

The cause of Zion will not be justified in the eyes of Babylon in the last days, and may appear evil to them.

The greatest threat we face is when religion, or members of religion, confuse good for evil and evil for good. When that happens we get decent and upstanding young men (from all appearences) planting bombs at Marathons (of course I am assuming their motive, but you get my point).

The power of religion for both good and evil is both a humbling and terrifying thought.

Edited April 20, 2013 by pogi

[Brian 2.0]

The problem here is that you expect God to behave according to your personal morals, cultural conditioning, and limited perspective. Have you ever considered that God may be even more progressive than yourself? What may seem bizarre or cruel in a mortal and temporal sense, might make a lot more sense from an immortal and eternal perspective in the eyes of a perfectly just and perfectly merciful being.

I think you misunderstand the point I was making in the section you quoted. It has nothing to do with my morals or views, it's that I fail to see any connection between something being legal according to city/state/cultural laws and that being justification for why god commanded it. It's just off topic. It's like a man claiming God commanded them to marry another man, and as justification to show why it could be from God they cite laws of the state they are living in to show how same-sex marriage is legal.

[Storm Rider]

It is difficult for man to evaluate God for being "right" in his commandments or directives. We are incapable of an eternal perspective; we are very linear in our thinking and at best understand a snapshot in time. It is also of value to reflect on how often God directs his servants to do certain types of things. Jesus did not make a habit of going around beating those who violated the sanctity of the temple; but he did do it once. Does that make him a raving lunatic ready to beat every individual that perverts holy places? Brian, you seem to think that you have a firm grasp on the eternal import of every action that God may or may not take. What happens when God states it is better that one man shall perish rather than an entire people dwindle in unbelief? What is the value of belief to God? I can get on a high horse with the best of them, but I try to at least be cognizant that I am getting on a high horse; the fall from that place can be painful. I tend to believe that God has the welfare of all his children first and foremost. I do not pretend to understand God or grasp the complexities of his ways, but I do try to understand one thing at a time and hope that one day we all may understand things more clearly.

[Bikeemikey]

We don't know that god did command nephi to kill Laban. All we k ow is that nephi reported that god did and that nephi felt it was through inspiration.

Nephi was not perfect... He could have got it wrong.

[Tacenda]

What if the BoM is fiction along with the Bible or Quran? I think I could be happy with that. I think men just thought people needed to be civilized or follow them to a higher spiritual plane . Maybe these men that came along added to the book of God and life as they felt inspired. And some mens inspirations were not from above but some were? Maybe it's up to us to get a relationship with God without someone telling us what to do. Is religion manmade, I think yes. Manmade so that we don't turn into savages? But unnecessarily so, because we were, most of us, given a moral compass? What to believe and not to believe. It was so much easier when I believed all of it.

[pogi]

I think you misunderstand the point I was making in the section you quoted. It has nothing to do with my morals or views, it's that I fail to see any connection between something being legal according to city/state/cultural laws and that being justification for why god commanded it. It's just off topic. It's like a man claiming God commanded them to marry another man, and as justification to show why it could be from God they cite laws of the state they are living in to show how same-sex marriage is legal.

Yes, and I agree with your point, but you seemed to have an underlying tone that if something seems inappropriate to you and your cultural upbringing, it must not be appropriate to God too. That's totally understandable, that's just how we are. I don't think Nephi "expected" God to command in such a manner, in fact he resisted at first and questioned if it be right. However, once we receive a spiritual witness and confirmation, we must lay aside all expectations and obey. It's okay to question, but we must be open to the answer.

[Flyonthewall]

And if he'd stolen your property and tried to kill you? Uh-huh. I thought as much.

It does seem to me like people are forgetting that Laban was not just some drunk found in the street, but the man who had stolen their possessions and attempted to murder them for gain.

I know in today's world if Laban was caught, there would be the legal process...a period alloted to get an attourney, time to build a case, selecting a jury, scheduling courts, possible plea bargaining, a years long court case, etc...

I think the legal system back then moved quicker than it does today, and it seems the death penalty was proscribed for a wider array of crimes than now too.

[DBMormon]

The problem is most people in the earlier stages of faith development see the world very black and white. Either/or us/them black/white. The commandments teach to this paradigm and stage. They teach at a level where one can know clearly what is being asked of them. From this view Lying is always wrong. Murder is always wrong.

Yet Christ himself doesn't adhere to this Black and white world. He rises above the letter of the law and keeps a higher spiritual law.

One can only do this when one comprehends the world is much more nuanced then it seems at first. Sometimes One must break a law to keep a higher one ex: Nephi Murdering Laban, Protecting a hiding Jew by lying to a Nazi soldier, Protecting your children by lying to an intruder, Adam breaking one commandment in the garden to keep another more important one.

Once one sees the Law is designed to Bring us to Christ we begin to see it's purpose.

Galatian 3:24 captures this perfectly

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

This transition allows to go from Follow the prophet no matter what he says because he speaks for God to Follow the Holy Ghost for by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things. Consider Moroni 7: the way to judge is by what brings you closer to Christ.

Once you have truly gotten there, you no longer need the law. You will keep the law anyway as the Holy Ghost tells you to. And in instances where Laws are in Conflict, one will not hesitate for long as the Holy Ghost will lead the way. For example when the lady was taken in Adultery - Consider Christ's answer and how revolutionary that was. Almost anything Christ did was to show that the Law being followed to the letter for the sake of obedience could only take you so far. One had to leave being a servant, transition into a friend, and eventually become a Son.

He who hath ears let him hear

Edited April 20, 2013 by DBMormon

[Brian 2.0]

It is difficult for man to evaluate God for being "right" in his commandments or directives. We are incapable of an eternal perspective; we are very linear in our thinking and at best understand a snapshot in time. It is also of value to reflect on how often God directs his servants to do certain types of things. Jesus did not make a habit of going around beating those who violated the sanctity of the temple; but he did do it once. Does that make him a raving lunatic ready to beat every individual that perverts holy places? Brian, you seem to think that you have a firm grasp on the eternal import of every action that God may or may not take. What happens when God states it is better that one man shall perish rather than an entire people dwindle in unbelief? What is the value of belief to God? I can get on a high horse with the best of them, but I try to at least be cognizant that I am getting on a high horse; the fall from that place can be painful. I tend to believe that God has the welfare of all his children first and foremost. I do not pretend to understand God or grasp the complexities of his ways, but I do try to understand one thing at a time and hope that one day we all may understand things more clearly.

I don't think we're that far apart here. I by no means claim to have a firm grasp on the eternal import of every action, and if I knew that an all-good all-knowing God was telling me to do something, even though I didn't grasp it, I would probably do it. With something as big as killing someone, I would need to be pretty much 100% certain that the source of that instruction was an all-good all-powerful God and not some other source.

With actions that don't have as big of consequences as killing someone, that certainty can be much lower. If someone feels instructed by God to make some homemade bread and bring it to a neighbor, then I don't see much worry in determining if the source of that instruction was from God or not. It's not a bad idea to move on that instruction even if you were 0% certain that the source of the idea was God.

And if any of you live down the street for me, stop pushing that inspiration aside and bake me some homemade bread please.

[Brian 2.0]

Yes, and I agree with your point, but you seemed to have an underlying tone that if something seems inappropriate to you and your cultural upbringing, it must not be appropriate to God too. That's totally understandable, that's just how we are. I don't think Nephi "expected" God to command in such a manner, in fact he resisted at first and questioned if it be right. However, once we receive a spiritual witness and confirmation, we must lay aside all expectations and obey. It's okay to question, but we must be open to the answer.

I hear you on this. And as I said in my recent post above, in order to "lay aside" my cultural upbringing or expectations in order to do something as huge as killing someone, my certainty that the "spiritual witness and confirmation" was from God has to be at basically 100%.

[ERayR]

We don't know that god did command nephi to kill Laban. All we k ow is that nephi reported that god did and that nephi felt it was through inspiration.

Nephi was not perfect... He could have got it wrong.

Yep he coulda and this whole thing might just be a college lab experiment too.

[ERayR]

What if the BoM is fiction along with the Bible or Quran? I think I could be happy with that. I think men just thought people needed to be civilized or follow them to a higher spiritual plane . Maybe these men that came along added to the book of God and life as they felt inspired. And some mens inspirations were not from above but some were? Maybe it's up to us to get a relationship with God without someone telling us what to do. Is religion manmade, I think yes. Manmade so that we don't turn into savages? But unnecessarily so, because we were, most of us, given a moral compass? What to believe and not to believe. It was so much easier when I believed all of it.

See my post #72 above.

Edited April 20, 2013 by ERayR

[ERayR]

It does seem to me like people are forgetting that Laban was not just some drunk found in the street, but the man who had stolen their possessions and attempted to murder them for gain.

I know in today's world if Laban was caught, there would be the legal process...a period alloted to get an attourney, time to build a case, selecting a jury, scheduling courts, possible plea bargaining, a years long court case, etc...

I think the legal system back then moved quicker than it does today, and it seems the death penalty was proscribed for a wider array of crimes than now too.

God's way saved a lot of time and expense.

[thesometimesaint]

Cool, God, just don't kill babies, okay?

That's probably what I would say.

Or just don't command people to kill babies, if that's cool with you.

God gives those babies their lives back again. So they haven't lost anything.

We can't give those babies their lives back again. So it is generally better to let God handle it.