The Trouble With Faith

[Storm Rider]

I was reading the Financial Times today and it had a quote: "There is, in fact, today, among most people, a certain average ideology whose drift is as follows. Everyone has to achieve a certain standard of living, everyone has to be able to realize himself by satisfying his desires and wishes, and when all is said and done in all of this, God is an unknown quantity that does not really count..." by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, The Salt of the Earth: Christianity and the Catholic Church at the End of the Millennium, An Interview with Peter Seewald. After I read these words, particularly the second phrase, I was struck by how clearly he stated the problem for people of faith. Faith is never strong when the focus is on our own desires and wishes. A strong faith demands that we focus on others, that our love for God is demonstrated by our love of our brothers and sisters, each and every one of them. When our focus is turned inwards all we seek is self gratification in all of its facets. As this focus grows in importance to the individual there is a corresponding diminution of faith in one's life. The more my career growth and associated personal income becomes an exclusive pursuit and the more my personal desires and wishes occupy my thoughts, the farther I remove myself from a place where God can be present in my life. My faith dwindles, I wail against God for not granting me my desires, and eventually find myself embittered against an ineffectual God and have left my faith behind me. I am curious if these thoughts ring true for others also.

Edited March 21, 2013 by Storm Rider

[TAO]

I think the times I am most faithful is when I realize that nothing the world offers fills in the spot God does. Sometimes I have to be reminded of that. A bit too often, imho.

[Hamba Tuhan]

My personal experience is that I've come to know God intimately and with absolute certainty only as I've faithfully sought to forget myself and do His work. Real obedience to the commandments of necessity puts us in situations where the only hope of support/succour is divine intervention. In this I'm reminded of Parley P. Pratt's decision to sell his farm and head east when prompted to do so:

I feel called upon by the Holy Ghost to forsake my house and home for the gospel's sake; and I will do it, placing both feet firm on these promises with nothing else to rely upon. If I sink, they are false. If I am sustained, they are true. I will put them to the test. Experiment shall now establish the truth of Christ's promises, or the truth of infidelity.

There really is no other way to know, and this is one reason why it is by faith that we are saved.

[Glenn101]

So, the trouble is not with faith but when our own desires conflict with the dictates of faith?

Glenn

[Ahab]

I think a lot of people confuse faith with hope. They'll do something while hoping they'll get something out of it, instead of being sure that they'll get something in particular by doing something in particular.

For example, when I first heard about the Church, and the Book of Mormon, I had many questions that I wanted to find the true answers to. For the answers to some of those questions I asked the member/missionary who introduced me to those things, or to some other missionaries who she later introduced me too, and while their answers made some sense to me and I could see how they might be true, I wanted an even stronger assurance than what those people could give me. So I asked God, and he answered me.

He is the source of my faith, and to get more faith I simply go to him for more assurance. I'm not just hoping that what I believe in is true, and I'm not relying on only my reasoning or what other people have told me. I just need to remember what he has told me and to keep learning from him as I continue to live my life looking for his guidance instead of acting on some stupid ideas I can get without him.

[Storm Rider]

Hope is often the gateway to the realization of faith. There are some that live only by hope or in other words that have a faith in the words of others, but self-admittedly live their mortal existence substantially in a darkness of the soul. I don't want to discount the valiant position these individuals maintain. Some of us have those bedrock foundations of oft answered prayers and spiritual witnesses that create for us a position of spiritually "knowing" our Father in Heaven and the teachings of his Son. Regardless, each of these positions are achieved by looking up, seeking that which is beyond ourselves for faith. More importantly, I believe that faith is maintained by consistently keeping our eye focused on that which is beyond us and not on the desires and passions of this life.

[CASteinman]

After reading these comments, I find that I get the sense of a strong connection between Faith -- and Works. As though they are tied together by an irresistible, ever present force.

[Duncan]

I have a lot of thoughts on this. I think when things go well then we believe in God and are blessed and say all these wonderful things but when things go bad then we can have a faith crisis and we hate God and then you get an uptick and the you pull a Korihor and say "I always knew there a God" and repent and then things go well again. In saying this some times though promises go unfulfilled, prayers aren't always answered or in the way you want and people can say why bother with any of it and just drift away, I have a friend who told me once that living with God or living without God doesn't seem to make that much difference, their life financially and whatnot is great and so what difference would believing in God or going to Church make-would be the logical extension of that argument

[The Nehor]

I have a lot of thoughts on this. I think when things go well then we believe in God and are blessed and say all these wonderful things but when things go bad then we can have a faith crisis and we hate God and then you get an uptick and the you pull a Korihor and say "I always knew there a God" and repent and then things go well again. In saying this some times though promises go unfulfilled, prayers aren't always answered or in the way you want and people can say why bother with any of it and just drift away, I have a friend who told me once that living with God or living without God doesn't seem to make that much difference, their life financially and whatnot is great and so what difference would believing in God or going to Church make-would be the logical extension of that argument

It is telling that most of God's promises beyond the Holy Ghost all lie in the next life. God rarely makes individual promises of wealth or earthly success. It is my experience that God is willing to be used to perfect us and prepare us for the next life. When our sights fall to earthly success and wealth and comfort He tends to withdraw. Goes with the CS Lewis house to mansion metaphor. God starts by doing pleasant things and then usually goes farther then we like.

[Duncan]

It is telling that most of God's promises beyond the Holy Ghost all lie in the next life. God rarely makes individual promises of wealth or earthly success. It is my experience that God is willing to be used to perfect us and prepare us for the next life. When our sights fall to earthly success and wealth and comfort He tends to withdraw. Goes with the CS Lewis house to mansion metaphor. God starts by doing pleasant things and then usually goes farther then we like.

oh man! you shoud read my Patriarchal Blessing and what is says about wealth, apparently it's supposed to happen sometime, not sure when but sometime! ha! What do you mean God's promises beyond the Holy Ghost? But what you say is true

[Hamba Tuhan]

I think when things go well then we believe in God and are blessed and say all these wonderful things but when things go bad then we can have a faith crisis and we hate God.

Interesting. It has been my personal observation that loss of faith is more likely to occur amongst the luxuriantly comfortable.

[Duncan]

Interesting. It has been my personal observation that loss of faith is more likely to occur amongst the luxuriantly comfortable.

that's true too, we are lulled into carnal security and trust riches more then God

[Calm]

Interesting. It has been my personal observation that loss of faith is more likely to occur amongst the luxuriantly comfortable.

I think it depends a great deal on the individual and what they've been taught to expect in life. I've seen those with excessive luxuries be lulled into a more inactive faith while those who are struck by tragedy and lose faith that way, it is a more immediate, sudden loss of faith rather than gradual. Edited March 22, 2013 by calmoriah

[Duncan]

I think it depends a great deal on the individual and what they've been taught to expect in life.

Patriarchal blessings, priesthood blessings (Elder Scott's advice to write them down) special messages people say to you can certaintly lead one ot believe many things in life. So, one wonders when they don't happen who or what went wrong? Did, the person giving the blessing just say it and now God is bound to do this, are you lacking faith even though God told someone to say something or is there some other variable in place that we don't even know about? and of course God is getting the flack if your faith dwindles and you walk away and just don't care, just live your life and whatever happens happens

[The Nehor]

oh man! you shoud read my Patriarchal Blessing and what is says about wealth, apparently it's supposed to happen sometime, not sure when but sometime! ha! What do you mean God's promises beyond the Holy Ghost? But what you say is true

Oh, it does happen. My parents were blessed with wealth even though they started with little. I am doing better then average so I cannot pretend I am some poor martyr. It is just that there are no general promises of wealth. In fact the parable of the 10 sons makes it clear that no only is life intentionally unfair when it comes to wealth consecration is supposed to fix it.

By promises beyond the Holy Ghost I mean pretty much everything else. Most of God's general promises such as Eternal Life and power and glory all lie beyond the grave. Individually we do get promises of course but mostly we know only a little of what is before us and beyond the general getting of blessings for obedience we know next to nothing of how those blessings will manifest and they are often blessings we do not think we want.

[Hamba Tuhan]

I've seen those with excessive luxuries be lulled into a more inactive faith while those who are struck by tragedy and lose faith that way, it is a more immediate, sudden loss of faith rather than gradual.

Good point. I guess I have seen both of those situations as well. What I haven't seen is people who have come to understand through personal experience their complete dependence on God just waking up one morning and deciding willy-nilly that He's not there.

[Hamba Tuhan]

So, one wonders when they don't happen who or what went wrong?

God is absolutely a keeper of His promises, but an important definition of faith is 'loyalty', and inevitably our loyalty is sometimes tried by the waiting. (It may help here to remember that hope literally means 'looking forward to, expecting, awaiting'.) When I consider what I have experienced in just the past five years, I am stunned. I never would have imagined that God had such blessings in store for someone like me. Meanwhile, an old friend of mine (and a stalwart, faithful counsellor to me when I served as elders quorum president in America) has made it abundantly obvious via Facebook that he no longer believes and hasn't for some time, and it makes me want to grab him across the thousands of kilometres and ask with some urgency, 'Do you have any idea what blessings you've forfeited???'

I actually just reminded myself of the time I gave my seriously ill father a blessing at his request. During the blessing, I promised him that he would recover from the illness (he had a pituitary tumour that had destroyed all his endocrine functions) and have the health necessary to serve in the temple. The problem was that there was no temple anywhere near my parents' home, so I found myself a bit surprised by this promise. I was even more disturbed, though, when later in the day I overheard my parents talking about those specific words. How, my father wanted to know, was he to serve in a temple when he and mum struggled to travel to the nearest temple a couple of times per year. My mother told him it was probably just a reference to the fact that they'd be able to continue going on temple trips. I actually started doubting myself and the 'inspiration' that had caused me to speak such a promise.

Then, in the midst of all the difficulties (including brain surgery) that we went through with Dad over the next few months, I completely forgot about the details of this blessing.

Til one day when the First Presidency announced that a small temple would be constructed about 20 minutes from my parents' house. My father, supported by artificial hormones, served there every week with my mother for many years -- one of the great joys of their lives.

Edited March 22, 2013 by Hamba Tuhan

[Duncan]

God is absolutely a keeper of His promises, but an important definition of faith is 'loyalty', and inevitably our loyalty is sometimes tried by the waiting. (It may help here to remember that hope literally means 'looking forward to, expecting, awaiting'.) When I consider what I have experienced in just the past five years, I am stunned. I never would have imagined that God had such blessings in store for someone like me. Meanwhile, an old friend of mine (and a stalwart, faithful counsellor to me when I served as elders quorum president in America) has made it abundantly obvious via Facebook that he no longer believes and hasn't for some time, and it makes me want to grab him across the thousands of kilometres and ask with some urgency, 'Do you have any idea what blessings you've forfeited???'

I actually just reminded myself of the time I gave my seriously ill father a blessing at his request. During the blessing, I promised him that he would recover from the illness (he had a pituitary tumour that had destroyed all his endocrine functions) and have the health necessary to serve in the temple. The problem was that there was no temple anywhere near my parents' home, so I found myself a bit surprised by this promise. I was even more disturbed, though, when later in the day I overheard my parents talking about those specific words. How, my father wanted to know, was he to serve in a temple when he and mum struggled to travel to the nearest temple a couple of times per year. My mother told him it was probably just a reference to the fact that they'd be able to continue going on temple trips. I actually started doubting myself and the 'inspiration' that had caused me to speak such a promise.

Then, in the midst of all the difficulties (including brain surgery) that we went through with Dad over the next few months, I completely forgot about the details of this blessing.

Til one day when the First Presidency announced that a small temple would be constructed about 20 minutes from my parents' house. My father, supported by artificial hormones, served there every week with my mother for many years -- one of the great joys of their lives.

you know, if you ever cross the pond supper awaits you on my table!

[CASteinman]

A memory occurs regarding faith and promises that might be interesting to the people in this Forum.

I joined the Church in Kaiserslautern Germany. This was back in the days when you could actually meet the Apostles. And on that let me digress a moment from my main point to demonstrate what the Church was like back then.

I recall before my baptism I was invited to attend a meeting where an "apostle" would be speaking. As I recall this was not even a Stake meeting but rather some sort of Ward event.

I came to the meeting and observed a very unimpressive man sitting on the stand with an owlish old fashioned look -- like he had been transplanted from the early 60's. It was worse because his name -- Gordon Hinkley -- struck me as hardly the sort of dignified holy name an apostle would have. I was prepared to be very disappointed.

Then he spoke and I was very surprised. His words were ridiculously powerful for how simple they were and how plainly said.

Anyway, that's a side story to indicate how the Church was smaller and closer then.

A few years later -- I know this will sound ridiculous but it is true -- we had one of those spade ceremonies, not for building a new building but merely to put on an expansion wing on the chapel. We had saved for years to get the money up to do this and now it was going to happen. A General Authority was sent to turn the spade for the expansion: Thomas Monson. It was no problem standing right next to him during the day. Try that now.

While he was there, speaking to us, he referred to the growth of the Church and President Kimball's efforts to bring it forward. He complimented us on the growth of our Ward and Stake but then he spoke about the need for the Gospel to reach the World and to advance behind the Iron Curtain.

He spoke about the challenges of the Gospel being restricted in East Germany and the precarious state of the Church there and the Saints. (It was awful. A REALLY repressive regime in East Germany. The Church had almost no contact with the membership there and the leaders were constantly threatened with jail). But then he spoke in faith and said (in that happy confident way of his) that he was confident that the day was not far off when Temples would dot the land behind the Iron Curtain. He encouraged us to pray for that day and told us that the Saints in East Germany were praying diligently for the opening of their country to the Gospel again.

Even for a new convert such as I was, full of that Garden of Eden like innocence -- this was just about too much to readily believe. Thomas Monson spoke with such a forceful optimistic certitude that it did not seem exactly like Faith but rather like a sort of blind cheer-leading. I did not reject his words entirely, but I sort of thought that the idea of "not far off" was like how the Lord would come "quickly" and I figured that, this being 1977 -- we were probably talking about 2050 or something like that.

One year later, we heard rumors -- strong rumors -- that a Temple was going to be built in East Germany -- of all places! One of the most restrictive regimes was going to open up! I heard that leaders were trying to squelch the rumors and so I kinda thought "Well we shall see".

It turned out to be true. In 1982 (I think) the first Temple behind the Iron Curtain was built. Now here my memory gets a bit sketchy but at some point about this time, I was talking with a GA or some other authority I knew about this whole thing and he told me: The Temple of the Lord will be an "inoculation" behind the Iron Curtain. You will see how things will change now that there is a little bit of the Gospel in communist countries. The Spirit of the Lord is going to change things. You just watch. This is part of the promise in the end times that the Gospel must be preached to all the world.

I remembered that word "inoculate" because it seemed so subversive in a way.

I did not actually believe that the changes would be all that dramatic. I never in a 100 years thought the Iron Curtain would fall. It seemed impossible.

But it did. Less than a decade after that Temple went in, down goes the Iron Curtain.

Now, even looking back, I am unable to see any direct link. But I do recall how much Faith a few people had that things would happen and that there would be big changes. And I feel in my heart that somehow, the Lord works to bring his designs to pass.

This has been a lesson to me for my life. Temples aren't yet dotting the land back in the former Iron Curtain Countries, but I do not think I should doubt it. And when I look to China and the Middle East as problem areas for us now, I always remember East Germany and the Little Temple in Freiberg.

Edited March 22, 2013 by CASteinman

[Stone holm]

I think for some people they just get a little numb with the idea that every time something goes right it is because God intervened , but every time something goes wrong its your own fault, and they just compromise and say stuff happens ... Actually they use a different word. And thereafter they quit ascribing everything to God and just thank him that there haven't been any major catastrophes today...and maybe once in awhile ask him if He could help you find the stupid car keys.

[savedbygrace]

It seems to me that the better off we are the less we feel we need God, the less relevent he seems, no doubt if we were threatened by some dreadful clamity, we would see churches filling up again. Why is this so, why has propsperity been detrimental to the welfare of our souls?

[teddyaware]

It seems to me that the better off we are the less we feel we need God, the less relevent he seems, no doubt if we were threatened by some dreadful clamity, we would see churches filling up again. Why is this so, why has propsperity been detrimental to the welfare of our souls?

In respose to your question, I offer you the following verses from the Book of Mormon:

2 Yea, and we may see at the very time when he doth prosper his people, yea, in the increase of their fields, their flocks and their herds, and in gold, and in silver, and in all manner of precious things of every kind and art; sparing their lives, and delivering them out of the hands of their enemies; softening the hearts of their enemies that they should not declare wars against them; yea, and in fine, doing all things for the welfare and happiness of his people; yea, then is the time that they do harden their hearts, and do forget the Lord their God, and do trample under their feet the Holy One—yea, and this because of their ease, and their exceedingly great prosperity.

3 And thus we see that except the Lord doth chasten his people with many afflictions, yea, except he doth visit them with death and with terror, and with famine and with all manner of pestilence, they will not remember him.

4 O how foolish, and how vain, and how evil, and devilish, and how quick to do iniquity, and how slow to do good, are the children of men; yea, how quick to hearken unto the words of the evil one, and to set their hearts upon the vain things of the world!

5 Yea, how quick to be lifted up in pride; yea, how quick to boast, and do all manner of that which is iniquity; and how slow are they to remember the Lord their God, and to give ear unto his counsels, yea, how slow to walk in wisdom’s paths!

6 Behold, they do not desire that the Lord their God, who hath created them, should rule and reign over them; notwithstanding his great goodness and his mercy towards them, they do set at naught his counsels, and they will not that he should be their guide.

7 O how great is the nothingness of the children of men; yea, even they are less than the dust of the earth. (Helamen 12)

Edited March 22, 2013 by teddyaware

[changed]

...A strong faith demands that we focus on others, that our love for God is demonstrated by our love of our brothers and sisters, each and every one of them. When our focus is turned inwards all we seek is self gratification in all of its facets. ...

I agree -

He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Matthew 10:39

Although there is the confusion that comes along with not being able to help others until you are stable and strong yourself - "secure your mask on first, and then assist the other person.” Making time for ‘good self-care’ is a necessity. You’ll never be able to give the best of yourself if you’re not taking care of yourself to begin with.

And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

(Book of Mormon | Jacob 2:19)

Step 1: obtain your own testimony in Christ (secure your own mask)

Step 2: help others with their mask.

I think everyone progresses through Covey's stages of dependance, independence, and then interdependance - as a soon to be mother of a teenager trying to enter the independent stage - that transition does seem to be a self-centered one, but I think that is ok for a time - they need to "secure their own mask" so to speak, understand who they are on a deep level, find their feet to stand on - you can't just skip straight from dependent to interdependent. I think we all share so many of the same things - we all feel anger/uncertainty/happiness/frustration/temptation/pride - sometimes coming to really honestly understand yourself, you come to understand others too, because we all share so many of the same things. It's ok and healthy to go through the independent stage - to have quiet time for yourself, to strengthen and find yourself.

...every man should love his neighbor as himself....Mosiah 23:15 - you are supposed to love yourself too (does not say treat your neighbor better than yourself, or yourself better than your neighbor, nor does it say love your neighbor but hate yourself, it says to love both your neighbor, and yourself.)

Edited March 22, 2013 by changed

[changed]

I think for some people they just get a little numb with the idea that every time something goes right it is because God intervened , but every time something goes wrong its your own fault...

There is a Zen story about a farmer and his son. One day, they find a beautiful wild horse and bring it home, and all the neighbors gather round and pat them on the back and say "such good news! you are so blessed!!" and the farmer only says "maybie"... then the son tries to break in the horse, and gets kicked off and breaks his own leg and once again the neighbors gather around and say "such bad news, bad karma, so sorry for you"... and the farmer again said "maybe".... the next day war breaks out, and all the sons in the neighborhood are called in to fight - except the farmer's son because he has a broken leg, and the neighbors gather around again and say "you are so lucky your son isn't serving, you are so blessed" and the farmer again sais "maybie" ... etc. etc. the point being that there isn't so much good things and bad things that happen, that it's all woven together and mixed up.... that we shouldn't get too excited about the good things, or too depressed about the bad things, but to keep in mind "this too shall pass" with all of it. I think the idea is that we should let go of desiring any of it, or getting our heart worked up too much over any of it, and learn to just go with the flow, see where it caries you, and enjoy the ride. If we aren't grasping at things, have let go of it all, and put it all in the Lord's hands - to have peace with whatever comes or doesn't come - to be able to sit back like the farmer and say "maybe", maybe it's good, or maybe it's bad, either way it's nothing to get worked up over, the ability to be content and happy regardless - to not be acted upon by the ups and downs, but to be level and steady through all of it, that's what it's all about.... I think God wants us to learn how to let go, and put it in His hands.... sometimes we learn how to let go by being shaken off of what we grasp.

Edited March 22, 2013 by changed

[Questing Beast]

... I am curious if these thoughts ring true for others also.

Not entirely. I agree that focus on the self to the exclusion of others is the most guaranteed way to become dissatisfied with the world of material things. But the built-in safety is that such an approach ultimately never works: no inner peace, much less satisfaction, is achieved by putting your hopes for such on a pursuit of material things, or eminence/popularity, or satisfaction of the lusts of the flesh, or power over others. But these kinds of desires are not inherently bad as long as we put the achievement of others on a level with our own. I have found that even when a gift is apparently free, that I cannot enjoy it perfectly because I see the lack of others, those who do not enjoy what I enjoy. If pursuit of any of the four areas of earthly desire is coupled with advancing others in the attainment of the same, then I think that pursuing earthly desires becomes a just pursuit. It could cause a paradise to grow here. Essentially, pursuit of earthly desires (and in a good way, i.e. not as addiction), coupled with selflessness, results in the human race raising itself up as a whole....

(edit to add: the most problematic of the four areas is "power over others". This one is the least justified desire, and is only justified when one finds oneself in the position of a steward, i.e. servant, even if theoretically one found oneself as "lord of the whole earth", as Jesus Christ is asserted to be: he does in fact possess all power over all things, and that includes all of us, but he does not exercise that absolute power in any way but to raise us up to enjoy the very same power, step by step. Most people, as Joseph Smith stated, when they get a little power, exercise "unrighteous dominion" with it. So power over others is the most difficult desire to control, and we have been warned that it is so)

Edited March 22, 2013 by Questing Beast