The Trouble With Faith

[Ahab]

I noticed in some of the examples people shared how faith was met with some doubt. When God gives us faith he is giving us his assurance that something is going to happen, whether or not we accept it. He is saying it will happen, or it is true. From there we then determine how to handle his assurance. We can receive his assurance and then doubt, or we could just accept it. Or sometimes with some more reflection we can remember the assurance he gave, or we might even hope that his assurance is true.

Like, did he really just tell me that? Was that God, or Satan?

Or, I sure hope what he assured me about is going to come true.

Or we could just say to ourselves, nah, I don't believe it, and then reject the assurance God gave us.

The point is, though, God is giving us faith when God gives us his assurance that something is true or is going to happen. We don't have to believe it, or we may have some trouble believing it, but God still gave us faith/assurance that it is true or going to happen.

Over the years I've gotten better at realizing when God is giving me faith, so I've cut down on how many times I don't let it sink in when he does. I think the hard part is just knowing when he is giving me his assurance, or being sure that I am receiving it. But that hard part is getting easier and easier for me to get past. Once I'm sure about that, it's generally easy to accept what he is trying to get across to me. I know he is a God who always tells the truth about everything, so when he assures me something is true, I know I can believe it.

[Monster]

Faith is a mechanism to believe in things that otherwise we would not. I think faith is best left to things like believing in the existence of God. Maybe even a benevolent kind God who actually cares about us, but faith can not prove the existence of such. So to use faith to conjure up good health or riches or even use it to improve the well being of our fellow man is an exercise in futility. There is no real evidence that it works to any degree other than anecdotal stories. If everyone put as much effort into actually doing something tangible, as to the energy they put into developing faith to fix problems we would have solved all the problems by now. Faith is a crutch to let us believe we are actually dong something when we are not. Forget the faith part and just get something done.

[Stone holm]

Faith is a mechanism to believe in things that otherwise we would not. I think faith is best left to things like believing in the existence of God. Maybe even a benevolent kind God who actually cares about us, but faith can not prove the existence of such. So to use faith to conjure up good health or riches or even use it to improve the well being of our fellow man is an exercise in futility. There is no real evidence that it works to any degree other than anecdotal stories. If everyone put as much effort into actually doing something tangible, as to the energy they put into developing faith to fix problems we would have solved all the problems by now. Faith is a crutch to let us believe we are actually dong something when we are not. Forget the faith part and just get something done.

A rather narrow view of the purpose of faith, definitionally you probably have it right as it is a belief in things the evidence of which is not seen. But there is a major advantage of the power of positive thinking and faith is ultimately about hope. People who lose hope and resort solely to skepticism frequently, although possibly not always, tend to wind up in a very dark place.

[Monster]

A rather narrow view of the purpose of faith, definitionally you probably have it right as it is a belief in things the evidence of which is not seen. But there is a major advantage of the power of positive thinking and faith is ultimately about hope. People who lose hope and resort solely to skepticism frequently, although possibly not always, tend to wind up in a very dark place.

Your analysis in incorrect. But that is what the church has thought us to do. We say things that support and confirm our view of the world whether they are correct or not. There is no evidence that skeptics are worse off. I can find you skeptics that say they are much better off than when they used faith as a means of discovery.

[Stone holm]

Your analysis in incorrect. But that is what the church has thought us to do. We say things that support and confirm our view of the world whether they are correct or not. There is no evidence that skeptics are worse off. I can find you skeptics that say they are much better off than when they used faith as a means of discovery.

Interesting that the two of us are having this exchange since most Mormons consider me something of a skeptic. I of course just consider myself a realist, but my reality differs from yours. I suspect that humankind as it has come to rely on science and technology has lost certain senses that it used to have some of those senses still lingered as late as our grandparents era. Some would dismiss such notions as just the shedding of superstitions, myself as I have advanced in age have come to believe that such dismissals may well be more a matter of ignorance. But then I came to adulthood in the 60's and who knows what may have scrambled my brain cells, modernity has proven to be an orthodox mental straight jacket for some.

[GingerRed]

God is absolutely a keeper of His promises, but an important definition of faith is 'loyalty', and inevitably our loyalty is sometimes tried by the waiting. (It may help here to remember that hope literally means 'looking forward to, expecting, awaiting'.) When I consider what I have experienced in just the past five years, I am stunned. I never would have imagined that God had such blessings in store for someone like me. Meanwhile, an old friend of mine (and a stalwart, faithful counsellor to me when I served as elders quorum president in America) has made it abundantly obvious via Facebook that he no longer believes and hasn't for some time, and it makes me want to grab him across the thousands of kilometres and ask with some urgency, 'Do you have any idea what blessings you've forfeited???'

I actually just reminded myself of the time I gave my seriously ill father a blessing at his request. During the blessing, I promised him that he would recover from the illness (he had a pituitary tumour that had destroyed all his endocrine functions) and have the health necessary to serve in the temple. The problem was that there was no temple anywhere near my parents' home, so I found myself a bit surprised by this promise. I was even more disturbed, though, when later in the day I overheard my parents talking about those specific words. How, my father wanted to know, was he to serve in a temple when he and mum struggled to travel to the nearest temple a couple of times per year. My mother told him it was probably just a reference to the fact that they'd be able to continue going on temple trips. I actually started doubting myself and the 'inspiration' that had caused me to speak such a promise.

Then, in the midst of all the difficulties (including brain surgery) that we went through with Dad over the next few months, I completely forgot about the details of this blessing.

Til one day when the First Presidency announced that a small temple would be constructed about 20 minutes from my parents' house. My father, supported by artificial hormones, served there every week with my mother for many years -- one of the great joys of their lives.

Oh my gosh, Hamba, you made me cry reading this!! Makes you think, doesnt it?

I lost my job back in Nov. I was there for almost 9 years! I was the x-ray tech there. All that time I thought job security was in my pocket. Then a month before I lost it, we had a big staff meeting announcing we were merging with another clinic. Had everyone nervous! Then lo and behold, with no warning, my 2 supervisors took me aside one day ( the day after my birthday) and said...."we have to make some changes, and we have to let you go".... JUST like that!!! Totally blindsided!! I was so flabbergasted, I could hardly speak and wound up running from the room, bursting into tears. That job was the BEST job I ever had in my life! I made the most money , had the best manager, the best docs to work for...we were all close , like sisters and family! I loved that job! And to have it all ripped from me, through no fault of my own was almost too much to bare! Then to make it worse, I found out from my co-workers, that I was replaced with a much younger GUY...with less experience...AND was somehow connected to the other clinic we were merging with!

Now here is it, 4 months later...still no job...BUT! As some would see this as a perfect opportunity to lamblast God for doing this to me....( and the thought did cross my mind , believe me!) I have survived. As some of mentioned above......its the big picture. I had to do what others have done....keep the faith. It has been a major struggle....but I tried to keep going back over and over in my head, the wonderful blessings I received in the past...miracles I surely didn't deserve...most them coming when I least expected it! It's so easy to get mad at God! But I didn't want to do that, not this time! I have had nothing but support , kindness and compassion from my friends, family and ward members. I have even my non-member friends praying for me or keeping me in their thoughts. I've bee trying hard to focus not on me but on the Lord. I don't have a clue as to WHY I have to go through such a trial! In the beginning, all you can think is WHY WHY WHY...why ME?? Why does He hate me so?? Its hard not to think you must have done SOMETHING so horrible to displease God! Then.....you finally calm down and realize you DIDN'T do anything wrong...there's a reason for this! ( I still yet to discover that reason.....it BETTER be a dang good one! LOL)

So I can sympathize with those who struggle....been there done that! I sure have had more than my share of reasons to lose my faith!! To throw in the towel, give up, say I can't take it anymore! That whole common phrase you hear so often..." I never said it would be easy, just worth it!" replays in my brain...and say look.....YOU are a Daughter of Heavenly Father! His DAUGHTER for Petes sake! This too shall pass! I think people who's faith lies in a thin thread, lose this hope, stop seeing the big picture down the road, stop believing in miracles. They, like someone said here, become focused on themselves, doubt their own worthiness, lose sight of who they are! They listen to the world, instead of that still small voice that's so soft, they can't hear it through the sounds of their own negativity and frustration. The spirit cannot dwell in a closed heart.

We all know it's SO much easier to believe the bad in life! Why the good is so much harder to accept?? I don't know! Are we just programed that way? Then again, I see folks who can let any adversity just roll off them like water on a ducks back no matter what life throws at them....and others, like I do sometimes, who absorb it all in until you drown in it! I almost drowned THIS time....but someone threw me a lifeline.....Heavenly Father. And not from just me trying to hang onto my faith, but through others who came to my rescue ....by letting me call my VT late at night to come over cause I was crying so, to comfort me....or just about every Mormon friend I know told me they put my name on the prayer roll.....I must have my name on so many rolls in so many temples, they must know it by heart! LOL ....or my neighbors bringing me chocolate or cookies leaving them on my doorstep....the bishop even came to me and gave me an envelope that was given to him anonymously...it had $100 cash in it! I was amazed! I know not who did that! ...the point is....HE knows! He knows what you are going through! FOCUS! Oh my heck ,if I can do it, ANYONE can!!!

In a way, Faith IS a 'mechanism' , Monster. One you have keep oiled and clean in good working condition. Once you stop taking care of it, it starts to grind , fill with dirt and rust... and stop working.

Red

[Stone holm]

Oh my gosh, Hamba, you made me cry reading this!! Makes you think, doesnt it?

I lost my job back in Nov. I was there for almost 9 years! I was the x-ray tech there. All that time I thought job security was in my pocket. Then a month before I lost it, we had a big staff meeting announcing we were merging with another clinic. Had everyone nervous! Then lo and behold, with no warning, my 2 supervisors took me aside one day ( the day after my birthday) and said...."we have to make some changes, and we have to let you go".... JUST like that!!! Totally blindsided!! I was so flabbergasted, I could hardly speak and wound up running from the room, bursting into tears. That job was the BEST job I ever had in my life! I made the most money , had the best manager, the best docs to work for...we were all close , like sisters and family! I loved that job! And to have it all ripped from me, through no fault of my own was almost too much to bare! Then to make it worse, I found out from my co-workers, that I was replaced with a much younger GUY...with less experience...AND was somehow connected to the other clinic we were merging with!

Now here is it, 4 months later...still no job...BUT! As some would see this as a perfect opportunity to lamblast God for doing this to me....( and the thought did cross my mind , believe me!) I have survived. As some of mentioned above......its the big picture. I had to do what others have done....keep the faith. It has been a major struggle....but I tried to keep going back over and over in my head, the wonderful blessings I received in the past...miracles I surely didn't deserve...most them coming when I least expected it! It's so easy to get mad at God! But I didn't want to do that, not this time! I have had nothing but support , kindness and compassion from my friends, family and ward members. I have even my non-member friends praying for me or keeping me in their thoughts. I've bee trying hard to focus not on me but on the Lord. I don't have a clue as to WHY I have to go through such a trial! In the beginning, all you can think is WHY WHY WHY...why ME?? Why does He hate me so?? Its hard not to think you must have done SOMETHING so horrible to displease God! Then.....you finally calm down and realize you DIDN'T do anything wrong...there's a reason for this! ( I still yet to discover that reason.....it BETTER be a dang good one! LOL)

So I can sympathize with those who struggle....been there done that! I sure have had more than my share of reasons to lose my faith!! To throw in the towel, give up, say I can't take it anymore! That whole common phrase you hear so often..." I never said it would be easy, just worth it!" replays in my brain...and say look.....YOU are a Daughter of Heavenly Father! His DAUGHTER for Petes sake! This too shall pass! I think people who's faith lies in a thin thread, lose this hope, stop seeing the big picture down the road, stop believing in miracles. They, like someone said here, become focused on themselves, doubt their own worthiness, lose sight of who they are! They listen to the world, instead of that still small voice that's so soft, they can't hear it through the sounds of their own negativity and frustration. The spirit cannot dwell in a closed heart.

We all know it's SO much easier to believe the bad in life! Why the good is so much harder to accept?? I don't know! Are we just programed that way? Then again, I see folks who can let any adversity just roll off them like water on a ducks back no matter what life throws at them....and others, like I do sometimes, who absorb it all in until you drown in it! I almost drowned THIS time....but someone threw me a lifeline.....Heavenly Father. And not from just me trying to hang onto my faith, but through others who came to my rescue ....by letting me call my VT late at night to come over cause I was crying so, to comfort me....or just about every Mormon friend I know told me they put my name on the prayer roll.....I must have my name on so many rolls in so many temples, they must know it by heart! LOL ....or my neighbors bringing me chocolate or cookies leaving them on my doorstep....the bishop even came to me and gave me an envelope that was given to him anonymously...it had $100 cash in it! I was amazed! I know not who did that! ...the point is....HE knows! He knows what you are going through! FOCUS! Oh my heck ,if I can do it, ANYONE can!!!

In a way, Faith IS a 'mechanism' , Monster. One you have keep oiled and clean in good working condition. Once you stop taking care of it, it starts to grind , fill with dirt and rust... and stop working.

Red

Gave you a rep bump in that. Faith is and always has been a refuge in the storm. Although I tend to agree with the Zen story that Changed related.

[GingerRed]

Gave you a rep bump in that. Faith is and always has been a refuge in the storm. Although I tend to agree with the Zen story that Changed related.

Thank you Stone! ( and Duncan and Hamba).....I just gave Changed a rep bump, too!

[Stargazer]

oh man! you shoud read my Patriarchal Blessing and what is says about wealth, apparently it's supposed to happen sometime, not sure when but sometime! ha! What do you mean God's promises beyond the Holy Ghost? But what you say is true

Mine suggests that it is possible, and desirable, but leaves the responsibility to obtain them up to me. I haven't been particularly successful so far.

[Duncan]

Mine suggests that it is possible, and desirable, but leaves the responsibility to obtain them up to me. I haven't been particularly successful so far.

mine PB is cryptic in most regards and I can't make heads or tails about it honestly! It's too painful to read so...

[Storm Rider]

not important.

Edited March 24, 2013 by Storm Rider

[CASteinman]

I know a person whose patriarchal blessing was ridiculously specific about certain things. I remember reading that and thinking "woah that patriarch was either really nuts or really inspired".

It came to pass as foretold in the Patriarchal Blessing. In fact, I would say the PB was conservative.

To this day it is an amazing thing to me -- though not necessarily positive because it was a very specific warning about a particular time and place and event in their life when they would have to do a certain thing and if they did not do it that way -- well you get the drift.

The person didn't and to put it mildly, promised blessings did not occur and other promises came to pass -- squared and cubed. I have mixed feelings about this because on the one hand, its ridiculous how precise the Patriarchal Blessing was, and yet the outcome makes me cry to think about.

Having said that, I think that there is a path even when we do not live up to our Patriarchal Blessings. I think that there is a way that God can make the lean years fat again. (I am not referring to money or wealth).

Edited March 25, 2013 by CASteinman

[Glenn101]

Having said that, I think that there is a path even when we do not live up to our Patriarchal Blessings. I think that there is a way that God can make the lean years fat again. (I am not referring to money or wealth).

I agree. And that is the beauty of the atonement. The right path can always be found again while there is life. Maybe sometimes we waste too much time in the return, but the opportunity is there for us. I have seen so many of the things in my PA come literally true, even though I wandered too far afield at one time. Once I "got my act back together", the PA continues to be a source of inspiration, comfort, and realized blessings.

Glenn

[Duncan]

I agree. And that is the beauty of the atonement. The right path can always be found again while there is life. Maybe sometimes we waste too much time in the return, but the opportunity is there for us. I have seen so many of the things in my PA come literally true, even though I wandered too far afield at one time. Once I "got my act back together", the PA continues to be a source of inspiration, comfort, and realized blessings.

Glenn

oh man! mine says that my mission (2 years in Califor-nye-eh) will be a great help in preparing me for my life's work, assuming it means of course my career, well, it hasn't done that at all. Yet, when I in my final interview my MP told me the mission was accepted by the Lord. So, I am confused...it's that and several other situations where it says one thing but another happened yet it makes me wonder about the whole thing! I actually stroked out some parts that cause me pain!

Edited March 25, 2013 by Duncan

[Stone holm]

I know a person whose patriarchal blessing was ridiculously specific about certain things. I remember reading that and thinking "woah that patriarch was either really nuts or really inspired".

It came to pass as foretold in the Patriarchal Blessing. In fact, I would say the PB was conservative.

To this day it is an amazing thing to me -- though not necessarily positive because it was a very specific warning about a particular time and place and event in their life when they would have to do a certain thing and if they did not do it that way -- well you get the drift.

The person didn't and to put it mildly, promised blessings did not occur and other promises came to pass -- squared and cubed. I have mixed feelings about this because on the one hand, its ridiculous how precise the Patriarchal Blessing was, and yet the outcome makes me cry to think about.

Having said that, I think that there is a path even when we do not live up to our Patriarchal Blessings. I think that there is a way that God can make the lean years fat again. (I am not referring to money or wealth).

I agree and gave you a bump on that. Also it is also possible to misread PBs. My first wife had a statement in hers that her life would be extended so that she could fulfill her mission. Since mine did not have a similar thought expressed in it she was always a little concerned that I would die and leave her a widow. As it turned out she was hospitalized during a pregnancy that was complicated while bedridden in the hospital she completed and mailed in the last of the pieces of submissions for her complete four generation program. The day after she did so her condition took a dramatic change for the worse and she and the unborn unexpectedly died. PB are personal prophecies and like all prophecies can easily be misinterpreted .

[Duncan]

I agree and gave you a bump on that. Also it is also possible to misread PBs. My first wife had a statement in hers that her life would be extended so that she could fulfill her mission. Since mine did not have a similar thought expressed in it she was always a little concerned that I would die and leave her a widow. As it turned out she was hospitalized during a pregnancy that was complicated while bedridden in the hospital she completed and mailed in the last of the pieces of submissions for her complete four generation program. The day after she did so her condition took a dramatic change for the worse and she and the unborn unexpectedly died. PB are personal prophecies and like all prophecies can easily be misinterpreted .

I am terribly sorry to hear about your wife. I think those misreadings are and can be a source of uber frustration of unmet expectations

[Stone holm]

I am terribly sorry to hear about your wife. I think those misreadings are and can be a source of uber frustration of unmet expectations

That happened many decades ago now, but the point of the story is that apparently her mission had to do with preserving some genealogical information instead of what she may have thought it was. Prophecies about the future are always tricky. I remember giving a comfort blessing to a man once who was experiencing some domestic issues. It promised if he would start attending all his meetings there would be a dramatic and sudden improvement in his life that would help lift him out of his depression. We both went away from the experience thinking that his relationship with his wife would improve. He was a very humble and good man. So the next two weeks he started attending all his meetings and his wife moved out a promptly filed for divorce...but you know it lifted him out of his depression and he became much happier...so you just never know.

[Tacenda]

I agree and gave you a bump on that. Also it is also possible to misread PBs. My first wife had a statement in hers that her life would be extended so that she could fulfill her mission. Since mine did not have a similar thought expressed in it she was always a little concerned that I would die and leave her a widow. As it turned out she was hospitalized during a pregnancy that was complicated while bedridden in the hospital she completed and mailed in the last of the pieces of submissions for her complete four generation program. The day after she did so her condition took a dramatic change for the worse and she and the unborn unexpectedly died. PB are personal prophecies and like all prophecies can easily be misinterpreted .