God Wanting For Us What He Knows We Won'T Ever Get

[Duncan]

Sometimes I wonder why would God give us commandments like say marrying a member in the Temple or give us certain talents or being born into a dysfunctional family but he wants us to do A but him knowing all things knows we will never choose A but choose B. For example I know plenty of members who don't marry other members or in the Temple, why give them the charge to get married in the Temple if he knew they would choose someone else outside of the Temple or give people talents he knew they would never do much or anything with or even people born into dysfunctional families that they don't stand a chance of survival in a "normal" way in society? We all know people that coem through just terrible backgrounds that end of on drugs, jail, family violence all kinds of social problems but God wanted something different for those people, Why even bother giving these people or individuals something if God knew that they wouldn't live up to it even if he told them about? Maybe a more simpler example is my brother's Patriarchal Blessing according to him says to get married in the Temple, yet he has aspergers and has never made any effort ever to get a girlfriend or really any friends and getting involved with someone would not be a wonderful idea and children would be even worse for him to handle (I could give examples of why), heck, I could have told told the Patriarch that before he even got the blessing that the tolerates people but prefers his own company! haha!

Edited February 15, 2013 by Duncan

[blackstrap]

Time,to us, is linear. To God it is not. There will be temples on the earth during the Millenium,and if I read correctly,in the Celestial world. So, marriage can take place anytime before and after Resurrection.

[Calm]

I have some talents in certain areas that could be so helpful to others that are pretty much useless to all concerned because I have also been 'blessed' with significant health issues. OTOH, I've also developed additional talents due to those health issues so perhaps it is simply a case of having multiple paths available and having made certain choices, I can take advantage of somethings but not others.

For those who are so handicapped that they can't adapt, I agree with Blackstrap that we often don't understand God's timetable as well as we may think we do and I suspect his instructions are tied to his timetable more than they are tied to ours.

[Freedom]

You are perhaps confusing destiny with choice. God gives us the ability to overcome, it is up to us to do the overcoming. Nobody is destined to any degree of failure no matter where they come from or what they have been given. I know people who came from fantastic families, who were given loads of talents and plenty of opportunity to develop them but did not. This is a testament to me that your upbringing has limited impact on who you choose to be. Many are called and few are chosen.

[Avatar4321]

Through God all things are possible. I've been promised a Temple sealing by the Lord. I believe it will happen even though there is absolutely little evidence it will occur. The Lord keeps His promises. I've seen way too many things to doubt that. And quite frankly, I don't want to doubt that. Just because we cant see the way, doesn't mean the Lord won't open it for us. We just need to exercise the faith needed to take the First step.

[Alvino]

Time,to us, is linear. To God it is not. There will be temples on the earth during the Millenium,and if I read correctly,in the Celestial world. So, marriage can take place anytime before and after Resurrection.

For this to solve Duncan's issue you would have to also assume that everyone who got a patriarchal blessing to marry in the temple will get married in the temple. If you believe there is someone who was told to marry in the temple but will never be, why did God tell them to marry in the temple in the first place?

[halconero]

There's a story of one of our current apostles teaching the Ten Commandments at a stake a conference.

After a man came to him, weeping. He told him that he was a soldier, and had violated the commandment "thou shalt not kill."

The apostle assured him that soldiers trying to be moral, engaged in combat, were, with few exceptions, not guilty of breaking this commandment.

The apostle went on to say that as a General Authority he was commissioned to preach the general commandments, but that individual application was to be figured out by the person and with help from their local leaders.

[dgd]

For this to solve Duncan's issue you would have to also assume that everyone who got a patriarchal blessing to marry in the temple will get married in the temple. If you believe there is someone who was told to marry in the temple but will never be, why did God tell them to marry in the temple in the first place?

Read Freedoms answer for starters. We all make choices to follow the commandments or not, and to meet the conditions God has set to receive his blessings, or not. All of us are born into different circumstances. I believe that when we are judged, those circumstances will be relevant. If we did not have the opportunities that others did, say to enter into a temple marriage in this life, then we will have that opportunity in the next. If we did have the opportunity and did not take it, I believe that is a completely different matter.

[bluebell]

I don't think God ever wanst for us (or promises us) things that we can't get. I know that He do so with things that our choices make it difficult or sometimes impossible to get, but that's all on us. Consequences are real, and His love and hopes for us don't override our agency to choose other things instead.

[Duncan]

I don't think God ever wanst for us (or promises us) things that we can't get. I know that He do so with things that our choices make it difficult or sometimes impossible to get, but that's all on us. Consequences are real, and His love and hopes for us don't override our agency to choose other things instead.

In my brother's case, he didn't choose aspergers, it just is but God seemingly is telling him to get married in the Temple with kids and marriage to my brother, honestly would be a disaster! ha! I just don't think he wants it or has any concept of wanting it or whatever-he just lives for himself. I guess I need to think about all this more!

Edited February 15, 2013 by Duncan

[CV75]

Sometimes I wonder why would God give us commandments like say marrying a member in the Temple or give us certain talents or being born into a dysfunctional family but he wants us to do A but him knowing all things knows we will never choose A but choose B.

I believe that when He arranged for the Atonement, He guaranteed our exaltation. When He gave us our agency, He guaranteed that only through our informed free choice alone, we could accept and realize that guarantee (or not).

Because of His guarantee, He never stops wanting us to choose it—that is the essence of His work and glory and of His love. His joy is in fulfilling His part of the work and glory—this is the only thing He has control of. His joy and our joy are shared when we join Him. His joy is a compound in one with His sorrow when we do not join Him.

Agency requires knowledge, choice, freedom and consequence of law. Because He gave us agency, or knowledge, choice, freedom and consequence of law of Himself, I believe that He sacrificed or forfeited certain specific aspects of His knowledge, His choices, His freedom, and His consequences in our behalf for the specific and limited purpose and period of our mortal probation. We could then keep our agency and gain more of it through righteousness, or lose agency through willful disobedience.

So I think that in certain ways He only knows what we choose to do at the same time we do, concurrent with our own experience, or with our thinking through choices and making them. His foreknowledge is revealed and His interventions only come into play when any of the essential aspects of the agency He gave us individually are irretrievably threatened by someone else.

Revealing His foreknowledge through such vehicles as prophecy allows us to exert faith in the future. His interventions allow us to exercise faith in the past. Our agency is the basis for using faith in the relative present. All these kinds of faith work together for our exaltation.

It would be interesting in the examples you provided to tease out the knowledge, choice, freedom and consequence of law involved, and how the situation plays out from the past, in the present and into the future.

[Duncan]

Read Freedoms answer for starters. We all make choices to follow the commandments or not, and to meet the conditions God has set to receive his blessings, or not. All of us are born into different circumstances. I believe that when we are judged, those circumstances will be relevant. If we did not have the opportunities that others did, say to enter into a temple marriage in this life, then we will have that opportunity in the next. If we did have the opportunity and did not take it, I believe that is a completely different matter.

I guess my question is how do we know we had the chance? would it be like breaking up with someone for petty reasons, like some people date and date and date and just never happens, others have had no real options for marriage and basically settle with someone that they aren't really happy with

[Duncan]

I believe that when He arranged for the Atonement, He guaranteed our exaltation. When He gave us our agency, He guaranteed that only through our informed free choice alone, we could accept and realize that guarantee (or not).

Because of His guarantee, He never stops wanting us to choose it—that is the essence of His work and glory and of His love. His joy is in fulfilling His part of the work and glory—this is the only thing He has control of. His joy and our joy are shared when we join Him. His joy is a compound in one with His sorrow when we do not join Him.

Agency requires knowledge, choice, freedom and consequence of law. Because He gave us agency, or knowledge, choice, freedom and consequence of law of Himself, I believe that He sacrificed or forfeited certain specific aspects of His knowledge, His choices, His freedom, and His consequences in our behalf for the specific and limited purpose and period of our mortal probation. We could then keep our agency and gain more of it through righteousness, or lose agency through willful disobedience.

So I think that in certain ways He only knows what we choose to do at the same time we do, concurrent with our own experience, or with our thinking through choices and making them. His foreknowledge is revealed and His interventions only come into play when any of the essential aspects of the agency He gave us individually are irretrievably threatened by someone else.

Revealing His foreknowledge through such vehicles as prophecy allows us to exert faith in the future. His interventions allow us to exercise faith in the past. Our agency is the basis for using faith in the relative present. All these kinds of faith work together for our exaltation.

It would be interesting in the examples you provided to tease out the knowledge, choice, freedom and consequence of law involved, and how the situation plays out from the past, in the present and into the future.

thanks! we all see so many social problems in and out of the Church. In 2011 our ward baptized a young woman who, it wasn't known but suspected at the time by me, but she has schizophrenia and has had kids taken away and lives with her Mom and in a psych hospital. She has come to church maybe 5 times since her baptism, I honestly think she forgot she joined the Church, she told us of her upbringing and I have heard and seen similar tales before, some people don't stand a chance coming up and make bad choices, drugs, alcohol, etc. because it's all they know like where is God in all this and when this ladyjoined the Church the promises of God I don't see why they could be made or would be made gven her mental state- I guess for me I don't find too much comfort in promises that God gives today and he expects you to do it today then someone else says well maybe it'll be realized after death, basically this life is a wash

[bluebell]

In my brother's case, he didn't choose aspergers, it just is but God seemingly is telling him to get married in the Temple with kids and marriage to my brother, honestly would be a disaster! ha! I just don't think he wants it or has any concept of wanting it or whatever-he just lives for himself. I guess I need to think about all this more!

Don't you believe that your brother will have the option after this life is over and all our illnesses are fixed? Do you really believe that he will never, in all of eternity, have the opportunity to marry and have children?

[Duncan]

You are perhaps confusing destiny with choice. God gives us the ability to overcome, it is up to us to do the overcoming. Nobody is destined to any degree of failure no matter where they come from or what they have been given. I know people who came from fantastic families, who were given loads of talents and plenty of opportunity to develop them but did not. This is a testament to me that your upbringing has limited impact on who you choose to be. Many are called and few are chosen.

would you say that everyone who say committed suicide or was was involved in serious legal trouble and we can list millions of people that there was some way out, like God gave them in some way an alternative that they recognized- for some people in some situations that's all they know so I am not surprised when the stuff hits the fan, because their lifestyle is almost geared to them making that bad choice

[Duncan]

Don't you believe that your brother will have the option after this life is over and all our illnesses are fixed? Do you really believe that he will never, in all of eternity, have the opportunity to marry and have children?

he will but wouldn't his attitudes here rise with him in the next life? or can our attitudes and mindsets be changed when we get there, why have them here then if it all changes?

[bluebell]

he will but wouldn't his attitudes here rise with him in the next life? or can our attitudes and mindsets be changed when we get there, why have them here then if it all changes?

I guess it depends on whether or not you believe aspergers is an abnormality or just a personality trait.

I think that many people believe autism and other spectrum disorders are the result of something going wrong in the brain, and that as such, those things will be fixed, like all illnesses or abnormalities, after death.

As to why illness and mental and physical defects are a part of mortality-that's probably a whole other discussion.

[dgd]

he will but wouldn't his attitudes here rise with him in the next life? or can our attitudes and mindsets be changed when we get there, why have them here then if it all changes?

Your brother has a physical condition which, I think it is fair to say, influences his thought processes. I can easily see how his attitudes and mindset can alter once he has those physical "limitations" removed and things can be seen (or thought) much more clearly.

I guess for me I don't find too much comfort in promises that God gives today and he expects you to do it today then someone else says well maybe it'll be realized after death, basically this life is a wash

I guess that depends on what the purpose of this life is. One purpose is to gain a physical body. Another is to be proved to see if we will follow God's commandments. Who are we proving it to? I think primarily we are proving it to ourselves. Imagine if God just skipped the mortal probation step and assigned us to a degree of glory (or outer darkness) based on his knowledge of our character. Just imagine the whining of those that didn't get eternal life. "But how do you know I wouldn't have done what I was supposed to do?"

Just because some promised blessings are not realized in mortality, that hardly makes it a "wash".

I guess my question is how do we know we had the chance? would it be like breaking up with someone for petty reasons, like some people date and date and date and just never happens, others have had no real options for marriage and basically settle with someone that they aren't really happy with

I don't know what a fair chance is, but I have confidence that God does. Also, as I believe He is just, those that didn't have "fair chance" in mortality will get one after. I suspect that any that figure they will just wait until after mortality to get sealed to someone "spectacular" will be disappointed. We need to make an effort in mortality.

[Duncan]

I guess it depends on whether or not you believe aspergers is an abnormality or just a personality trait.

I think that many people believe autism and other spectrum disorders are the result of something going wrong in the brain, and that as such, those things will be fixed, like all illnesses or abnormalities, after death.

As to why illness and mental and physical defects are a part of mortality-that's probably a whole other discussion.

true I guess, My Mum's Aunt -Huldah...(that's the winner winner chicken dinner of a name right there!)- had something very similar but I don't know enough about her or autism to make any conclusions either way, very much appreciate the reponse(s)!!

Edited February 15, 2013 by Duncan

[ERayR]

For this to solve Duncan's issue you would have to also assume that everyone who got a patriarchal blessing to marry in the temple will get married in the temple. If you believe there is someone who was told to marry in the temple but will never be, why did God tell them to marry in the temple in the first place?

When you were just a little guy why did your mother tell you not to play in the mud when she knew that was the first place you would go?

[Questing Beast]

... heck, I could have told told the Patriarch that before he even got the blessing that he tolerates people but prefers his own company! haha!

The official line, of course, is, "God offers the same fair chance to all his children, yet allows each of us complete freedom to choose or reject God's offers for exaltation". If God did not, then he would be rightly accused with preference and prejudice. However, the Mormon "God the Father" is not the Cause of your brother's existence anymore than yours or mine or anyone else's. GtF in Mormon cosmology is "merely" an intelligence/spirit/soul just like the rest of us: uncaused, always existing, never-ending: he's just "more intelligent than the rest of ALL you all" (an accurate paraphrase). So GtF is not to blame for those of us, "his children", who do not accept what he has on offer, or the rest of us who even fight against "the plan". The official line continues to assert that everything we see in the world (universe) is God's handiwork through his Son Jesus Christ, "the Word", and that nothing we enjoy as mortals would exist without Christ's creation of it, through direction from the Father of course, because Jesus Christ only ever does what he has seen his Father do before him. And most Mormons have heard, and many continue to regurgitate, that GtF is really a glorified man like us, and has attained to his glory forever by going through the very same process we are experiencing right now, etc. and etc. and etc.

The trouble enters into the whole "official" line when we observe for ourselves that such an explanation explains nothing that you have asked. The original, core "terrible question" remains in Mormonism, unanswered by any of Joseph Smith's theology/cosmology: "Why is there existence instead of nothing?" GtF does not begin to answer that question. GtF is not to blame for your brother's refusal to act on the "wonderful blessing God has in store for him". etc. and etc. and etc. GtF is merely engaged in existence (always existing and never created, nor can be, like intelligences) like all the rest of us. So the blame for knowing beforehand who will accept and who will reject his "plan" falls on the Cause of Existence in the First Place, whatever/whoever that Is.

And I reject all assertions that such a Being would ever dream up, create or cause to be, any sapient individual such as you are, your brother is, and I AM, to ultimately refuse to "get it" and remain in outer darkness forever, worlds without end. No. But what I do believe is that "God", the Cause of Existence in the First Place, creates each of us to ultimately find perfect Joy, no matter how long it takes. (Even Brigham Young proposed that a damned soul would eventually be returned to the "beginning" and start over. (I don't have the reference before me, but it is one of those JoD teachings which never entered into "scripture").) This is the only way to make sense out of "God", the Cause (not GtF), even bothering to do this "creation thing" in the first place. Yes, we have paths where we all fail forever, and in those universes we are cut off from the presence of "God" and wallow in sin and misery and damnation and eternal darkness forever and ever worlds without end. But we also have universes where we ultimately attain to "soul-mate" status with "God", as close to being equal to the mind of "God" as it is possible to be, and I believe that that is what "God" Is about: creating the process by which Existence in the First Place can effectually Cause Beings to Exist that learn and return to the point just before they would be absorbed back into the totality of "God's" mind, yet remain sovereign "souls" that understand something of the awful Aloneness: for "God" alone experiences ALONENESS, yet we experience loneliness and it is the same kind of emotional state, although with us it is finite, and that will always be the infinite difference between any of us and "God". When we arrive at the point where we have the full understanding of what ultimate loneliness Is, we are offered the choice to endure it or receive "annihilation", by being absorbed back into the Totality of God, like the ancients' "drop of water returning to the ocean", or "candle flame absorbed back into the fire", etc. If we choose that, we are no longer sovereign individuals, and the memory of our finite yet immortal existence is in the mind of "God" only. But, if we choose instead to remain as the "soul-mate" to God", then it might be for no other reason than to give "God" company so that the ALONENESS is not quite so terrible. If out of all "God's" created selves, only ONE agreed to be the "soul-mate", that would alleviate the ALONENESS somehow, because "God" would not share that mind of the soul-mate, but choose instead to remain on the "outside", as we are with each other, never touching mind to mind, but seeking each other's presence to alleviate loneliness.

All of that is purely anthropomorphic perspective, yet it is all we have to go by. "God" Caused us to be anthropomorphic beings and to have virtually infinite capacity for imagination. It must be for something!

(It is early in the morning and you pushed my buttons... )

[Duncan]

The official line, of course, is, "God offers the same fair chance to all his children, yet allows each of us complete freedom to choose or reject God's offers for exaltation". If God did not, then he would be rightly accused with preference and prejudice. However, the Mormon "God the Father" is not the Cause of your brother's existence anymore than yours or mine or anyone else's. GtF in Mormon cosmology is "merely" an intelligence/spirit/soul just like the rest of us: uncaused, always existing, never-ending: he's just "more intelligent than the rest of ALL you all" (an accurate paraphrase). So GtF is not to blame for those of us, "his children", who do not accept what he has on offer, or the rest of us who even fight against "the plan". The official line continues to assert that everything we see in the world (universe) is God's handiwork through his Son Jesus Christ, "the Word", and that nothing we enjoy as mortals would exist without Christ's creation of it, through direction from the Father of course, because Jesus Christ only ever does what he has seen his Father do before him. And most Mormons have heard, and many continue to regurgitate, that GtF is really a glorified man like us, and has attained to his glory forever by going through the very same process we are experiencing right now, etc. and etc. and etc.

The trouble enters into the whole "official" line when we observe for ourselves that such an explanation explains nothing that you have asked. The original, core "terrible question" remains in Mormonism, unanswered by any of Joseph Smith's theology/cosmology: "Why is there existence instead of nothing?" GtF does not begin to answer that question. GtF is not to blame for your brother's refusal to act on the "wonderful blessing God has in store for him". etc. and etc. and etc. GtF is merely engaged in existence (always existing and never created, nor can be, like intelligences) like all the rest of us. So the blame for knowing beforehand who will accept and who will reject his "plan" falls on the Cause of Existence in the First Place, whatever/whoever that Is.

And I reject all assertions that such a Being would ever dream up, create or cause to be, any sapient individual such as you are, your brother is, and I AM, to ultimately refuse to "get it" and remain in outer darkness forever, worlds without end. No. But what I do believe is that "God", the Cause of Existence in the First Place, creates each of us to ultimately find perfect Joy, no matter how long it takes. (Even Brigham Young proposed that a damned soul would eventually be returned to the "beginning" and start over. (I don't have the reference before me, but it is one of those JoD teachings which never entered into "scripture").) This is the only way to make sense out of "God", the Cause (not GtF), even bothering to do this "creation thing" in the first place. Yes, we have paths where we all fail forever, and in those universes we are cut off from the presence of "God" and wallow in sin and misery and damnation and eternal darkness forever and ever worlds without end. But we also have universes where we ultimately attain to "soul-mate" status with "God", as close to being equal to the mind of "God" as it is possible to be, and I believe that that is what "God" Is about: creating the process by which Existence in the First Place can effectually Cause Beings to Exist that learn and return to the point just before they would be absorbed back into the totality of "God's" mind, yet remain sovereign "souls" that understand something of the awful Aloneness: for "God" alone experiences ALONENESS, yet we experience loneliness and it is the same kind of emotional state, although with us it is finite, and that will always be the infinite difference between any of us and "God". When we arrive at the point where we have the full understanding of what ultimate loneliness Is, we are offered the choice to endure it or receive "annihilation", by being absorbed back into the Totality of God, like the ancients' "drop of water returning to the ocean", or "candle flame absorbed back into the fire", etc. If we choose that, we are no longer sovereign individuals, and the memory of our finite yet immortal existence is in the mind of "God" only. But, if we choose instead to remain as the "soul-mate" to God", then it might be for no other reason than to give "God" company so that the ALONENESS is not quite so terrible. If out of all "God's" created selves, only ONE agreed to be the "soul-mate", that would alleviate the ALONENESS somehow, because "God" would not share that mind of the soul-mate, but choose instead to remain on the "outside", as we are with each other, never touching mind to mind, but seeking each other's presence to alleviate loneliness.

All of that is purely anthropomorphic perspective, yet it is all we have to go by. "God" Caused us to be anthropomorphic beings and to have virtually infinite capacity for imagination. It must be for something!

(It is early in the morning and you pushed my buttons... )

Thank you! that's food for thought for like a week! ha!

[CV75]

we all see so many social problems in and out of the Church

And He obviously loves us all and seeks our eternal welfare.

I think He gave the same promises in the pre-existence as He gives today. This mortal lifespan isn’t the first time we’ve heard the promises, and isn’t the only time we can do anything about them (or Heavenly Father, either). The probationary state extends into the post-mortal spirit world.

The Veil is the point where Heavenly Father granted some aspect of His agency to us for probationary purposes, and we pass that probation when we grant that agency back to Him by following Jesus’ example. As the Veil represents our lack of recollection, I think it also represents Heavenly Father’s abeyance of some foreknowledge of how we will use our agency.

This means His promises and expectations are real, but that He only judges our performance according to the light (knowledge, choice, freedom and consequence of law) that we have at our disposal by virtue of how we handle our probation.

[Duncan]

And He obviously loves us all and seeks our eternal welfare.

I think He gave the same promises in the pre-existence as He gives today. This mortal lifespan isn’t the first time we’ve heard the promises, and isn’t the only time we can do anything about them (or Heavenly Father, either). The probationary state extends into the post-mortal spirit world.

The Veil is the point where Heavenly Father granted some aspect of His agency to us for probationary purposes, and we pass that probation when we grant that agency back to Him by following Jesus’ example. As the Veil represents our lack of recollection, I think it also represents Heavenly Father’s abeyance of some foreknowledge of how we will use our agency.

This means His promises and expectations are real, but that He only judges our performance according to the light (knowledge, choice, freedom and consequence of law) that we have at our disposal by virtue of how we handle our probation.

it is by our works and hearts we are judged but it seems that we are judged differently then if he knew who would accept the Gospel and to those he didn't think would, shoud we all be judged the same or am I confusing the same with fairly?

[Storm Rider]

The official line, of course, is, "God offers the same fair chance to all his children, yet allows each of us complete freedom to choose or reject God's offers for exaltation". If God did not, then he would be rightly accused with preference and prejudice. However, the Mormon "God the Father" is not the Cause of your brother's existence anymore than yours or mine or anyone else's. GtF in Mormon cosmology is "merely" an intelligence/spirit/soul just like the rest of us: uncaused, always existing, never-ending: he's just "more intelligent than the rest of ALL you all" (an accurate paraphrase). So GtF is not to blame for those of us, "his children", who do not accept what he has on offer, or the rest of us who even fight against "the plan". The official line continues to assert that everything we see in the world (universe) is God's handiwork through his Son Jesus Christ, "the Word", and that nothing we enjoy as mortals would exist without Christ's creation of it, through direction from the Father of course, because Jesus Christ only ever does what he has seen his Father do before him. And most Mormons have heard, and many continue to regurgitate, that GtF is really a glorified man like us, and has attained to his glory forever by going through the very same process we are experiencing right now, etc. and etc. and etc.

The trouble enters into the whole "official" line when we observe for ourselves that such an explanation explains nothing that you have asked. The original, core "terrible question" remains in Mormonism, unanswered by any of Joseph Smith's theology/cosmology: "Why is there existence instead of nothing?" GtF does not begin to answer that question. GtF is not to blame for your brother's refusal to act on the "wonderful blessing God has in store for him". etc. and etc. and etc. GtF is merely engaged in existence (always existing and never created, nor can be, like intelligences) like all the rest of us. So the blame for knowing beforehand who will accept and who will reject his "plan" falls on the Cause of Existence in the First Place, whatever/whoever that Is.

And I reject all assertions that such a Being would ever dream up, create or cause to be, any sapient individual such as you are, your brother is, and I AM, to ultimately refuse to "get it" and remain in outer darkness forever, worlds without end. No. But what I do believe is that "God", the Cause of Existence in the First Place, creates each of us to ultimately find perfect Joy, no matter how long it takes. (Even Brigham Young proposed that a damned soul would eventually be returned to the "beginning" and start over. (I don't have the reference before me, but it is one of those JoD teachings which never entered into "scripture").) This is the only way to make sense out of "God", the Cause (not GtF), even bothering to do this "creation thing" in the first place. Yes, we have paths where we all fail forever, and in those universes we are cut off from the presence of "God" and wallow in sin and misery and damnation and eternal darkness forever and ever worlds without end. But we also have universes where we ultimately attain to "soul-mate" status with "God", as close to being equal to the mind of "God" as it is possible to be, and I believe that that is what "God" Is about: creating the process by which Existence in the First Place can effectually Cause Beings to Exist that learn and return to the point just before they would be absorbed back into the totality of "God's" mind, yet remain sovereign "souls" that understand something of the awful Aloneness: for "God" alone experiences ALONENESS, yet we experience loneliness and it is the same kind of emotional state, although with us it is finite, and that will always be the infinite difference between any of us and "God". When we arrive at the point where we have the full understanding of what ultimate loneliness Is, we are offered the choice to endure it or receive "annihilation", by being absorbed back into the Totality of God, like the ancients' "drop of water returning to the ocean", or "candle flame absorbed back into the fire", etc. If we choose that, we are no longer sovereign individuals, and the memory of our finite yet immortal existence is in the mind of "God" only. But, if we choose instead to remain as the "soul-mate" to God", then it might be for no other reason than to give "God" company so that the ALONENESS is not quite so terrible. If out of all "God's" created selves, only ONE agreed to be the "soul-mate", that would alleviate the ALONENESS somehow, because "God" would not share that mind of the soul-mate, but choose instead to remain on the "outside", as we are with each other, never touching mind to mind, but seeking each other's presence to alleviate loneliness.

All of that is purely anthropomorphic perspective, yet it is all we have to go by. "God" Caused us to be anthropomorphic beings and to have virtually infinite capacity for imagination. It must be for something!

(It is early in the morning and you pushed my buttons... )

That was quite the diatribe about your opinion of what my beliefs, LDS beliefs, are in who God is and who God is not. What is perfectly clear is that in the theology of manmade religions that man is nothing and will never be anything other than a participant in heaven's choir to sing for eternity without stopping glories to God. What on earth has God of need of that? What type of god needs us for anything much less to be his constant reminder of his greatness? What the Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches is that we are the creation of God the Father. We have nothing to explain how the creative process occurred, but it is clear that without him we would not be here. Without the Godhead we would not exist nor would there be any way for us to return to God's presence in any shape or form.