God Wanting For Us What He Knows We Won'T Ever Get

[bluebell]

true I guess, My Mum's Aunt -Huldah...(that's the winner winner chicken dinner of a name right there!)- had something very similar but I don't know enough about her or autism to make any conclusions either way, very much appreciate the reponse(s)!!

I have a sister, who's adopted and 11 years younger than me, who suffers from mental deficiencies because of the choices her mother made while she was pregnant. They are the kind though where it's not obvious to people who come in contact with my sister that there's anything psychologically wrong, but it is obvious that she's different than most people.

She's married and has children and is about as happy as anyone could be, but in a lot of ways, she is not functioning well. She's got some really serious issues that she's probably not even aware of, because it's just beyond her capabilities to understand herself in that way. This means that she makes choices that are not always good and that her life will probably be very hard as her children get older and those choices start to impact their behavior. But, she does what she wants, and usually tries her best, and probably always will, regardless of the consequences (because she's just not capable of foreseeing them, even when other people tell her they are coming).

But i know that God takes all of that into account. She's not going to be judged by the same standard i will be judged, for example, and what He expects of her in this life is a lot different than what He expects of me, i have no doubt. Those things which God wants for her and what He wants for me, like being able to go to the temple, for example, are the same, but the timetable is different. Even if some of those things can't happen for my sister in this life, I don't for a minute believe that means they won't *ever* happen. She'll be able to be, after this life, who she was before, free of all the mental roadblocks she's dealing with now, and that's the person who will continue building upon what she learned here, without the burden that she now carries.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Sometimes I wonder why would God give us commandments like say marrying a member in the Temple or give us certain talents or being born into a dysfunctional family but he wants us to do A but him knowing all things knows we will never choose A but choose B. For example I know plenty of members who don't marry other members or in the Temple, why give them the charge to get married in the Temple if he knew they would choose someone else outside of the Temple or give people talents he knew they would never do much or anything with or even people born into dysfunctional families that they don't stand a chance of survival in a "normal" way in society? We all know people that coem through just terrible backgrounds that end of on drugs, jail, family violence all kinds of social problems but God wanted something different for those people, Why even bother giving these people or individuals something if God knew that they wouldn't live up to it even if he told them about? Maybe a more simpler example is my brother's Patriarchal Blessing according to him says to get married in the Temple, yet he has aspergers and has never made any effort ever to get a girlfriend or really any friends and getting involved with someone would not be a wonderful idea and children would be even worse for him to handle (I could give examples of why), heck, I could have told told the Patriarch that before he even got the blessing that the tolerates people but prefers his own company! haha!

Within all families are all the challenges of eternity...no other training program can approach it.

[Duncan]

I have a sister, who's adopted and 11 years younger than me, who suffers from mental deficiencies because of the choices her mother made while she was pregnant. They are the kind though where it's not obvious to people who come in contact with my sister that there's anything psychologically wrong, but it is obvious that she's different than most people.

She's married and has children and is about as happy as anyone could be, but in a lot of ways, she is not functioning well. She's got some really serious issues that she's probably not even aware of, because it's just beyond her capabilities to understand herself in that way. This means that she makes choices that are not always good and that her life will probably be very hard as her children get older and those choices start to impact their behavior. But, she does what she wants, and usually tries her best, and probably always will, regardless of the consequences (because she's just not capable of foreseeing them, even when other people tell her they are coming).

But i know that God takes all of that into account. She's not going to be judged by the same standard i will be judged, for example, and what He expects of her in this life is a lot different than what He expects of me, i have no doubt. Those things which God wants for her and what He wants for me, like being able to go to the temple, for example, are the same, but the timetable is different. Even if some of those things can't happen for my sister in this life, I don't for a minute believe that means they won't *ever* happen. She'll be able to be, after this life, who she was before, free of all the mental roadblocks she's dealing with now, and that's the person who will continue building upon what she learned here, without the burden that she now carries.

I didn't know that, thank you for the share! My bro is like that, except no wife and kids but he just like my Mum's aunt, just exist, hate to say this but my bro has no real personality, he lives his life like he did when he was a kid, to that end he buys dvd's of 70's and 80's shows and doesn't really watch anything beyond that, although I managed to get him to watch BBT and antigue pawn type shows. His mind is like an 11 yr old, he doe shave a Masters's degree and has a killer job but he is living for himself, he is a rigid almost robotic person, eats the same lucnh everyday in the same place at the food court, it's amazing and he just doesn't get the idea that others exists, he says stuff and does stuff that our family just cringe at and apologize for and from the outside he's fine but I seriously honestly don't think getting married would be a great idea and kids wouldn't be a blessing to him. We love him and all that but I don't know why God would say to him get married and have kids but as you say the time table could be different

Edited February 15, 2013 by Duncan

[bluebell]

I didn't know that, thank you for the share! My bro is like that, except no wife and kids but he just like my Mum's aunt, just exist, hate to say this but my bro has no real personality, he lives his life like he did when he was a kid, to that end he buys dvd's of 70's and 80's shows and doesn't really watch anything beyond that, although I managed to get him to watch BBT and antigue pawn type shows. His mind is like an 11 yr old, he doe shave a Masters's degree and has a killer job but he is living for himself, he is a rigid almost robotic person, eats the same lucnh everyday in the same place at the food court, it's amazing and he just doesn't get the idea that others exists, he says stuff and does stuff that our family just cringe at and apologize for and from the outside he's fine but I seriously honestly don't think getting married would be a great idea and kids wouldn't be a blessing to him. We love him and all that but I don't know why God would say to him get married and have kids but as you say the time table could be different

Our leaders are always saying how patriarchial blessings are not just for this life, but for the eternities too. Maybe there will be a time, after mortality, when your brother will need the admonish to get married and have children-a time when it will be blessing for him but he will need the guidance to pursue it-even if that time is still far far away.

[Walden]

Sometimes I wonder why would God give us commandments like say marrying a member in the Temple or give us certain talents or being born into a dysfunctional family but he wants us to do A but him knowing all things knows we will never choose A but choose B. For example I know plenty of members who don't marry other members or in the Temple, why give them the charge to get married in the Temple if he knew they would choose someone else outside of the Temple or give people talents he knew they would never do much or anything with or even people born into dysfunctional families that they don't stand a chance of survival in a "normal" way in society? We all know people that coem through just terrible backgrounds that end of on drugs, jail, family violence all kinds of social problems but God wanted something different for those people, Why even bother giving these people or individuals something if God knew that they wouldn't live up to it even if he told them about? Maybe a more simpler example is my brother's Patriarchal Blessing according to him says to get married in the Temple, yet he has aspergers and has never made any effort ever to get a girlfriend or really any friends and getting involved with someone would not be a wonderful idea and children would be even worse for him to handle (I could give examples of why), heck, I could have told told the Patriarch that before he even got the blessing that the tolerates people but prefers his own company! haha!

I have always been flumoxed by a variation on this theme that you introduce in your post above.

If god is all-knowing/omnipotent and knows every thought in our mind, and thus already knows every decision we will ever make, why send us to earth to test us, and thus assign an eternal reward, if he already knows every decision and thought that we will ever have, and thus know from the moment that we are born which kingdom we will inherit.

This is a question for which I have never heard a rationale explanation that does not contradict basic tenets of Christian belief.

[bluebell]

I have always been flumoxed by a variation on this theme that you introduce in your post above.

If god is all-knowing/omnipotent and knows every thought in our mind, and thus already knows every decision we will ever make, why send us to earth to test us, and thus assign an eternal reward, if he already knows every decision and thought that we will ever have, and thus know from the moment that we are born which kingdom we will inherit.

This is a question for which I have never heard a rationale explanation that does not contradict basic tenets of Christian belief.

The only explanation i've ever heard (and i believe it comes from the scriptures), is that it's not just (based on an eternal definition of justice) to punish or reward someone for something they would have done-that it's only just to do so for things actually done.

In this same vein, such justice (based on actual occurrances) is irrefutable and unarguable. Meaning, that it's not just the person doling out the punishment or rewards that knows they are being just, but the person receiving them knows without a doubt that it's just as well. The scriptures imply that that kind of knowledge (for the person receiving the justice) is important (though i don't know that the scriptures ever explain why).

[CV75]

it is by our works and hearts we are judged but it seems that we are judged differently then if he knew who would accept the Gospel and to those he didn't think would, shoud we all be judged the same or am I confusing the same with fairly?

Hopefully I’m understanding what you’re asking here.

In the Final Judgment, it won’t matter if God knew in retrospect during our probationary phase (mortality and the spirit world) who would receive the Gospel and who wouldn’t. By that time, all knowledge of our works and of our hearts that is needed for Him to judge a just judgment will be laid out on the bench for everyone to see and consider. So whether He knows the outcome ahead of time or not, there still has to be a reconciliation of grading between Him and the person that was being tested.

I gave my reasons for thinking that He doesn’t know (or want to know, or even cannot know) who will receive or not receive the Gospel in the world or spirit world ahead of the Final Judgment. I have an idea that this was partly why He turned away in Christ’s last moments—so that, for a moment at least, He would not actually know (or allow Himself to know) the outcome. His joy is in that He made the guarantee of exaltation for all His children and that He affords them the opportunity to qualify for it prior to their Resurrection and Final Judgment.

Now if it turns out that He does know who will receive and not receive the Gospel ahead of time, He is obviously acting as if He doesn’t, and that takes some divine self-control as well. In either case, He judges us the same way. The books are opened, laid out and compared and we face the truth together.

So as far as God judging everyone the same way (I think it is given that He judges us fairly), I think He either judges everyone as if He knows the outcome, or as if He doesn’t know the outcome, or as if He’s only acting like He doesn’t know the outcome. But I do not think He judges some knowing the outcome and others not knowing the outcome, and others just acting like He doesn’t know the outcome.

In the meantime, when He “commands” someone during the mortal probation to do something that appears to us beyond that person’s capacity or wherewithal to fulfill, that might just be as much of a test for us as for that person. We don’t know what the disabled person is thinking, intending, feeling, etc. in relation to that commandment, and perhaps all they can do about it, as little as that may seem to us, is all the Lord expects of them to do. You mentioned that we are judged by the thoughts and intents of our hearts, and this might be a good example of that.

[CV75]

P.S. Now when it comes to wondering why we bother with a mortal probation at all, since the thoughts and intents of our hearts are such a driving force in the Final Judgment, I think the thoughts and intents of our hearts are formed and expressed differently as pre-moral spirits, as spirits embodied in a mortal tabernacle, and then as disembodied spirits after we die. Progress from one estate to the next is the result of testing of some sort until the Final Judgment, which takes place after the Resurrection, when the thoughts and intents of out hearts are part of being our spirits and bodies becoming inseparably connected. So the mortal probation is still quite necessary for the full and proper judgment of the thoughts and intents of our hearts.

[Calm]

The only explanation i've ever heard (and i believe it comes from the scriptures), is that it's not just (based on an eternal definition of justice) to punish or reward someone for something they would have done-that it's only just to do so for things actually done.

In this same vein, such justice (based on actual occurrances) is irrefutable and unarguable. Meaning, that it's not just the person doling out the punishment or rewards that knows they are being just, but the person receiving them knows without a doubt that it's just as well. The scriptures imply that that kind of knowledge (for the person receiving the justice) is important (though i don't know that the scriptures ever explain why).

There is also the fact that we would not be the same people to be judged if we had not gone through the experiences because our experiences change us.

To make this point clear, if one has only had experiences of a child and youth, yet at the age of 18 is rated as to what she would likely have as a 50 year old through tests that measured her abilities in certain jobs as well as social and emotional "IQs" and then whomever had run the tests gave her the job, income, status, social life and family (husband, 3 kids and two grandkids) of what she would have at the age of 50 without her having lived those intervening 32 years.....would she really value and enjoy that life of a 50 year old when she was only 18 years old? Would she be able to function in that life?

Without having experienced this earthly life, including that period in the spirit world where we learn what we didn't have to the chance to process while alive, we would not be prepared to accept the gifts and blessings that the Lord is willing to give us and that we are worthy for by his judgment.

Edited February 15, 2013 by calmoriah

[rpn]

I don't think you give enough credit. There are lots of people with aspergers who marry and have children. And likely there will be many who have those blessings in a slightly different fashion that we see it with our mortal eyes. As for the woman with mental illness, all she has to do, having been baptized, is to do her personal best and repent quickly. The atonement covers all the rest, and she will have all the promised blessings.

Personal best includes not requiring what you cannot deliver, despite your personal best.

[Duncan]

I don't think you give enough credit. There are lots of people with aspergers who marry and have children. And likely there will be many who have those blessings in a slightly different fashion that we see it with our mortal eyes. As for the woman with mental illness, all she has to do, having been baptized, is to do her personal best and repent quickly. The atonement covers all the rest, and she will have all the promised blessings.

Personal best includes not requiring what you cannot deliver, despite your personal best.

maybe I don't but I have 30 plus years of lived experience with him and I know God has longer, but in this life I wouldn't recommend it but timetable is the key

[Maidservant]

I think this is one of the treasures of the human journey. It is the journey outlined to us by Eve.

There is the law.

And then there is what really happens .

The REAL LAW *IS*: to love yourself, love your neighbor and love God.

THAT'S the law.

We can put that law into pieces: marry in the temple, and so forth.

I don't know that it can be supported by scripture per se, but maybe your brother isn't here in this mortality for himself, maybe he's here for the people surrounding him. Either way--mortality is a journey to have an increase of knowledge of LOVE.

We would like to think this journey occurs when we have all our ducks in order and that the problems we encounter are the breakdown of the process.

I have learned to see it the other way around.

It is when we have our struggles--THIS is when the process of mortality is functioning sacredly as it was meant to. This is when we love--when the struggles come, when it hurts like heck, when it's confusing. If we love when everything makes sense and goes smoothly, that's not very much love. Love, charity, God's love, is a costly love of great price when we lay down our lives to have the privilege of loving other people--when they are at their worst, not their best. When they are broken, and can't love; when we are broken, but manage to love anyway.

We cannot know what we need to know from this place without the experience of pain and loss . . . having it all work out the way the 'law' said to would be the real problem.

We are not here to be saved by the law. We can do that already, before we came here.

We are here to be saved by what we might term grace; and much of that grace is what we are willing to share with each other.

What is your brother's grace? What is the grace you can offer your brother?

Anything you are able to do to continue to nurture him as part of your family, I'm pretty sure our heavenly Father is capable of that and more.

As far as a temple marriage and family specifically for your brother in this life--again, a LOT of people are missing the pieces of that. For example, yes, I was married in the temple, and my husband is now deceased, and I'm not sure our marriage even comes close to a telestial version of a marriage much less celestial; but we can't work on it anymore even if we wanted to; coz he's busy on the other side and I exist pretty much to raise the 6 human beings we brought into this world. It's a mess!

Life. is. a. sacred. mess. And THAT'S when it's working .

Your brother is fine in an eternal sense. As we all are.

And in this life, as you say, his life is perhaps better lived without wife and children at least until there becomes any spark of desire on that, should there come that.

The more immediate question is why couldn't the patriarch just say all that in the blessing, but then I guess we could all say that, coz wouldn't I like a patriarchal blessing that tells me what stocks to buy. That would have been useful and something I could actually act on instead of wondering what the heck everything that IS in my blessing means and wasn't I going to do my best in life even without a patriarchal blessing. So I don't know.