A Question About The Pre-Existence

[Alan]

A question;

If a person was looking forward to earth life because they actually wanted to sin, who's side would they have chosen on the war in heaven?

[BCSpace]

All those who sided with Lucifer were cast into outer darkness. However, I would say that all of us looked forward to feeling and sensing what a physical body can do. Would it be sin to merely look forward to experiencing anything the body can do? I think not imho.

Edited January 28, 2013 by BCSpace

[cdowis]

The concept of "sinning on earth" was not conceivable to anyone who has never experienced having a physical body. It is meaningless.

It was a matter of selecting to following Heavenly Father, or following the deceptions of Satan.

[rpn]

Even if we heard the words, we wouldn't have any idea what we were going to experience. And you'll recall that all of us wanted to progress and return to Heavenly Father, because those that didn't, aren't here on earth. So your hypothetical is impossible.

[mfbukowski]

A question;

If a person was looking forward to earth life because they actually wanted to sin, who's side would they have chosen on the war in heaven?

The Red Sox.

[Alan]

I recently read a vision a patriarch (I think) had of the premortal world. He saw the council and the debate that ensued amongst the spirits there. He said it seemed everyone paired up, male and female. We were instructed regarding earth life, and some males said they had no intention of living the gospel law, but intended to spend their time enjoying themselves with the females. Some females were equally interested in enjoying themselves with the males.

This got me thinking. If this is true (and it might explain why it seems some people are "bad" from an early age and appear to have no disposition for righteousness whatsoever) then given that one had those desires regarding this life, it would make sense to back Christ's plan in the council and ensuing war in heaven. If Lucifer had been victorious, all those who had sinful desires would have been unable to carry them out because agency would have been removed and correct behaviour enforced.

So maybe, those who followed Lucifer were those who didn't want to risk failure and were afraid of the obvious dangers of free agency, and those now experiencing mortality consist of those who desire to conform to the plan out of choice, and those who do not desire to conform at all, and never did.

[teddyaware]

A question;

If a person was looking forward to earth life because they actually wanted to sin, who's side would they have chosen on the war in heaven?

They would have been on Sheldon Plankton's side.

Edited January 28, 2013 by teddyaware

[CV75]

I recently read a vision a patriarch (I think) had of the premortal world. He saw the council and the debate that ensued amongst the spirits there. He said it seemed everyone paired up, male and female. We were instructed regarding earth life, and some males said they had no intention of living the gospel law, but intended to spend their time enjoying themselves with the females. Some females were equally interested in enjoying themselves with the males.

This got me thinking. If this is true (and it might explain why it seems some people are "bad" from an early age and appear to have no disposition for righteousness whatsoever) then given that one had those desires regarding this life, it would make sense to back Christ's plan in the council and ensuing war in heaven. If Lucifer had been victorious, all those who had sinful desires would have been unable to carry them out because agency would have been removed and correct behaviour enforced.

So maybe, those who followed Lucifer were those who didn't want to risk failure and were afraid of the obvious dangers of free agency, and those now experiencing mortality consist of those who desire to conform to the plan out of choice, and those who do not desire to conform at all, and never did.

Nothing wrong with enjoying oneself within the varied bounds set by the Lord. What does a spirit know about carnal, sensual and devilish enjoyments, anyway?

I agree some pre-mortal spirits fear failure, but being cast out is the result of rebellion which might be a bit different. But I’m sure there are all kinds of people in the pre-existence, even those that neither rebel nor come to earth, but remain spirits until they are ready to make a decision.

The idea that God would permit a premeditated abuse of His Atonement is interesting, or allow spirits to come to earth intending to rebel a la 2 Nephi 27:7-8. I would think passing through the Veil into earth would require some level of covenant made in righteousness similar to passing through the Veil into exaltation. Where no one is destined to fail but to become exalted, I’m sure this is the case.

[Questing Beast]

A question;

If a person was looking forward to earth life because they actually wanted to sin, who's side would they have chosen on the war in heaven?

Mistaken premise, imho. Do you look forward to dreaming so that you can do whatever you want to in your dreams, and get away with it? Same thing going "here", at least so it seems to me evidently.

The notion that we are somehow different here than we are "there" is the nature of egocentricism, wherever you go, there you are. But I don't believe that this world is anything more than a temporary learning environment to the immortal that I am....

[altersteve]

They would have been on Sheldon Plankton's side.

Brilliant.

[theplains]

The concept of "sinning on earth" was not conceivable to anyone who has never experienced having a physical body. It is meaningless.

It was a matter of selecting to following Heavenly Father, or following the deceptions of Satan.

In LDS theology, the spirits are said to have had agency in the pre-mortal existence - the ability to choose

either good or evil. It seems like sinning (choosing evil) was possible in the pre-earth existence when they

had 'spirit' bodies. After all, the choice to follow Satan's plan or Jesus' plan was not the only choice they

used their agency against ... or was it?

Did the one-third of the spirits follow Satan's plan and then Heavenly Father said, "sorry, your choice was

evil" or did they knowingly make an evil choice in wanting Satan's plan to be accepted? Or did all of the

spirit children choose to follow Jesus but then Satan somehow convinced one-third of them to side with

the loser? Or did all of the spirits choose Satan's plan first but then two-thirds rebelled against him when

they found out there was going to be a war in heaven and they wanted to be on Heavenly Father's side?

Please clarify.

Thanks,

Jim

[Calm]

They would have been on Sheldon Plankton's side.

There are some jokes I am relieved I have to google to understand...

[Calm]

Please clarify.

As soon as we get the revelation, you are first on the list of notification.

[The Nehor]

A question;

If a person was looking forward to earth life because they actually wanted to sin, who's side would they have chosen on the war in heaven?

I am guessing all of those people were damned before they got to the Premortal Council. Even Lucifer was not in favor of sin. He would be perfectly happy with righteousness as long as he was in charge and had unlimited power to enforce his will.

[Calm]

Even Lucifer was not in favor of sin. He would be perfectly happy with righteousness as long as he was in charge and had unlimited power to enforce his will.

Unless he didn't care one way or the other and thought it would simply work out best to remove all laws save for one that gave him all glory, thus allowing others to do what they wanted without any oversight or restriction...no law, no sin, no consequences but also no righteousness.

Though he might have gotten off on the idea of treating mankind as his personal puppets, I tend to lean more to the 'totally wrapped up in his own drama and could care less about what was going on with others' attitude for him.

[The Nehor]

Unless he didn't care one way or the other and thought it would simply work out best to remove all laws save for one that gave him all glory, thus allowing others to do what they wanted without any oversight or restriction...no law, no sin, no consequences but also no righteousness.

Reminds me of the little-known third plan I submitted which was that as soon as they partook of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil they would immediately partake of the fruit of the tree of life and live forever in their sins and not one should be saved....no, not one. All should sin in immortality forever.

It died in committee for some reason.

[Calm]

It died in committee for some reason.

It needed better marketing research.

[Alan]

I also have a suspicion that there were some pre-mortal spirits who didn't want to come to earth. They were happy with their lot and didn't want to take a risk. Perhaps they didn't believe Christ could really pull it off, or had very little self-confidence etc; but at the same time were not at all happy with Lucfer's bold coupe attempt.

We automatically think it was a one third/two third split but I suspect that is a simplistic view.

[teddyaware]

There are some jokes I am relieved I have to google to understand...

You ought to watch this miniscule megalomanic in action sometime, he is a very, very funny character; the greatest one-celled comedian in world history!

Edited January 29, 2013 by teddyaware

[Maidservant]

A question;

If a person was looking forward to earth life because they actually wanted to sin, who's side would they have chosen on the war in heaven?

If it were me with this question, I would first make a study of the word/idea of "sin" and how it has developed over time to make sure I understood even within the terms of mortality. An understanding of this has not been constant. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the word/idea of sin as we now understand it is an invention, one of those lost things we need to find again.

Having said that, I personally doubt that even if one took a great study of the Hebrew scriptures that we would understand very well what our point of view was before we came here, about what the purpose of earth life was. Yay and nay--I think there is a lot of 'encoded' stuff to find, but it's not just lying around at first glance.

In the temple there is not a lot of direct reference to sin, proper. I think this may be a good place to start in your ponderings.

My main point for myself, as I understand, I don't think our preparation, choice and act to come to this earth life is to be understood in terms of sin at all. I know you are wondering if there were some who would come to see if they could get riches and power and whatnot and just play the game. Maybe. But I tend to think this could not be the case, because looking from the vantage point of where we came from, what could possibly be the prize? A brief moment as dry grass when one had golden goblets of wine in one's hand? I don't know, it doesn't seem that wonderful even if there were characters who were oppressive even at that time. Surely we understood the parable of the ten virgins (its meaning) before undertaking this journey. But I don't know, maybe there were many short sighted, many so utterly deceptive and oppressive who did just want to hurt other people. I'm not convinced, though.

From the vantage point of pre-earth life, coming to mortality is an ordinance. It IS the ordinance of baptism. Earth life IS baptism to a person from the point of view of a pre-mortal being. It is sacred. It bespeaks of covenant and commitment. It's the beginning of a path--the gate. In the church, not too many people accept a covenant of baptism who intend to do nothing with it or who deliberately intend to desecrate it. I'm sure there are some very, very few. But most people at least have the smallest desire to do well, even if it is to get approval from their Mormon friends or something simple like that. Most people who don't wish for the commitment just say, No thanks, I'm not going to be baptized. So I think those are the most likely attitudes and subsequent actions also for us and others during the pre-existence as we contemplated coming here.

We automatically think it was a one third/two third split but I suspect that is a simplistic view.

If you ask me, that story is a template entirely that upon further pondering, and if one has keys of understanding, will open to one's view great cache's of knowledge far beyond what one might imagine. I don't know if you watch Dr. Who, but stories like this (and like the Adam & Eve story in Genesis) are like the Tardis--bigger on the inside than on the outside. I agree that the numbers are symbolic, but I don't have possession of number symbol knowledge, so I don't know yet. That story is not a representation of a historical moment; or at least as I am understanding at the moment.

[bcuzbcuz]

Nothing wrong with enjoying oneself within the varied bounds set by the Lord. What does a spirit know about carnal, sensual and devilish enjoyments, anyway?

Carnal.....I thought you said camel.

[CV75]

Carnal.....I thought you said camel.

Ha-ha--maybe caramel?

[CV75]

From the vantage point of pre-earth life, coming to mortality is an ordinance. It IS the ordinance of baptism. Earth life IS baptism to a person from the point of view of a pre-mortal being. It is sacred. It bespeaks of covenant and commitment. It's the beginning of a path--the gate.

Nice! 1 John 5: 7, 8: “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” The ordinance of coming from the pre-mortal world into this one involves these three elements, as does the ordinance of coming into spiritual life from the fallen world, as indicated in Moses 6: 59-60:

“ …and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory; For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified…”

[Calm]

Ha-ha--maybe caramel?

Caramel can be very carnal.....

[volgadon]

Caramel can be very carnal.....

Yet not nearly as sensual as dulce de leche.