CV75 Posted January 29, 2013 Posted January 29, 2013 Caramel can be very carnal.....Yet not nearly as sensual as dulce de leche.Never heard of a "dulce de leche sutra," just a caramel sutra...
Calm Posted January 29, 2013 Posted January 29, 2013 Yet not nearly as sensual as dulce de leche.I don't know, there are few things more delicious to me than a high quality caramel....
rongo Posted January 29, 2013 Posted January 29, 2013 I recently read a vision a patriarch (I think) had of the premortal world. He saw the council and the debate that ensued amongst the spirits there. He said it seemed everyone paired up, male and female. We were instructed regarding earth life, and some males said they had no intention of living the gospel law, but intended to spend their time enjoying themselves with the females. Some females were equally interested in enjoying themselves with the males.You are referring to the Mosiah Hancock dream (the wording of the above is a dead give-away).For what it's worth, much of it resonates with me. It was written in his journal and not meant for publication, so I think he's sincere, as far as that goes. I didn't used to believe that we knew our spouses in the pre-existence, but my agnosticism in this regard has been depleted the older I get (although I still believe that most people could marry any number of people and make it work). The divine intervention in me meeting my wife (who is the most perfect person I could have married, bar none) really makes me wonder, but I don't know if that is applicable across the board.Hancock saw that we were created in male/female pairs and that we learned and progressed together. As Alan mentioned above, he also saw that some deliberately chose to come to earth into positions of power, and some even specifically chose to come to earth and live immorally. Others chose other certain trials or circumstances. The fact that some halves of pairs in the preexistence broke their bond with their mates and chose telestial lives on earth meant that there would be adaptation and changes on earth.Interesting to think about, that's for sure!
Ahab Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 A question;If a person was looking forward to earth life because they actually wanted to sin, who's side would they have chosen on the war in heaven?Could have been on any side, as far as that goes. The issue then was how to be redeemed from our sins while we were told that most of us would.Personally, I've come to learn that committing a sin makes me want to stop sinning, at some point. Even my ever evolving and "favorite" sins feel like a burden I want to get rid of, after a while. What I reallyl want to do is progress, rather than stay stuck doing some stupid thing that is only going to get me in trouble and put a damper on my eternal progress. And that's where repentance comes in. It's like a mulligan, or a do over, so that eventuallly I can get it all right.
Maidservant Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Nice! 1 John 5: 7, 8: “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” The ordinance of coming from the pre-mortal world into this one involves these three elements, as does the ordinance of coming into spiritual life from the fallen world, as indicated in Moses 6: 59-60:“ …and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory; For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified…”By the way, I learned this by pondering the actual baptismal ordinance. Maybe there were other clues, but that is the one I remember.Watch what happens in the token baptism ordinance. The father holds the child (which is why we baptize children, also; it's important to the symbolism). Then the child is placed in the water so that she is completely covered. Then she is brought up out of the water.The time it takes for her to be under the water represents her earth life.For me, it's a little on the order of mind blowing and turns keys for other portions of knowledge.There are scriptures like these also:Jonah chapter 2 (esp. verse 3)Ether 2:25 (and the entire story of the sea crossing) (also the Nephi/Lehi sea crossing)Psalms 130:1, Psalms 68:22 (and the story of the parting of the Reed Sea; also 2 Nephi 8:10), Psalms 71:20the symbolism of the Noah story
rongo Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Nice! 1 John 5: 7, 8: “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” The ordinance of coming from the pre-mortal world into this one involves these three elements, as does the ordinance of coming into spiritual life from the fallen world, as indicated in Moses 6: 59-60:“ …and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory; For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified…”I received a phone call from a Lutheran minister one morning on my mission. He explained that his confirmation group was learning about other churches, and wondered if we would come and talk to them about Mormonism. We were happy to (understatement), and brought a Book of Mormon for everyone and had a captive audience. He asked if they could come and see our church as well.At their visit, the mask came off. We gave them a tour of the building, including the font, and asked them if they had any questions. The pastor did. He became enraged and told them that these men didn't accept their baptism as valid. I asked him if he considered our baptisms valid, and as he sputtered, a girl asked why we needed to be baptized, anyway.I will never forget his answer and Katje's response (the girl). He launched forth into a weird speech about how we are in water in our mother's womb, and when we are born into this harsh world, we yearn to once again have this "contact with water." And we get this through baptism. "Tja," the girl said. "Wenn ich Begegnung mit Wasser wollte, könnte ich mich düschen" (Hey, if I wanted 'contact with water,' I could just take a shower").I felt bad for him, even though he had been a jerk and the whole thing was a set-up (in his mind) to make us look bad.That passage from Moses reminded me of that. There is profound symbolism between the water, blood, and spirit at our birth and our baptismal rebirth. 1
mfbukowski Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 There is profound symbolism between the water, blood, and spirit at our birth and our baptismal rebirth.And thou shalt bring Aaron and his sons unto the door of the Tabernacle of the Congregation and wash them with water. And thou shalt put upon Aaron the holy garments and annoint him, and sanctify him...Exodus 40:12When these words are spoken in a certain context with which we are familiar, they are arguably apply also to the pre-existence. 1
CV75 Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Ether 2:25 (and the entire story of the sea crossing) (also the Nephi/Lehi sea crossing)This one is especially interesting to me due to the emphasis on being "tight like unto a dish." Such a dish (I can't cite the references right now, but google dish and womb) can represent a womb, and so we have the elements of birth (water-ocean; blood-people; Spirit-shining small stones). and of course spiritual rebirth with the same elements. 1
CV75 Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 That passage from Moses reminded me of that. There is profound symbolism between the water, blood, and spirit at our birth and our baptismal rebirth.Very interesting--and this further reminds me of the water, blood and spirit that came out of the Savior with the piercing of His left side. The water and blood are obvios, but perhaps that is also the point where His Spirit finally and completely departed from His body or environs.
Maidservant Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Exodus 40:12When these words are spoken in a certain context with which we are familiar, they are arguably apply also to the pre-existence.Especially if you consider that holy garments = body, then in these priestly passages and ceremony, you have an entire "play" about the pre-existence and into earth life. Really, it's every where once you know what to look for. And I only started to see it like maybe a year and a half ago, so it's been a wild ride since then and I feel like I'm still on the edge of some other things.
mfbukowski Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Especially if you consider that holy garments = body, then in these priestly passages and ceremony, you have an entire "play" about the pre-existence and into earth life. Really, it's every where once you know what to look for. And I only started to see it like maybe a year and a half ago, so it's been a wild ride since then and I feel like I'm still on the edge of some other things.Well there is something to this for sure- I have noticed it myself.If you are not familiar with the Hymn of the Soul, or Pearl, you have got to be. I had an old blog that I haven't used in a while but I think you will like this in particular. 1
Maidservant Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Well there is something to this for sure- I have noticed it myself.If you are not familiar with the Hymn of the Soul, or Pearl, you have got to be. I had an old blog that I haven't used in a while but I think you will like this in particular.Wow.
Ahab Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Wow, indeed. It's be nice if someone would take that story and make it into a movie!!!Thanks for sharing, mski. I wasn't aware of that transcript until now.
mfbukowski Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Wow.Knocked my bloomin' socks off when I first read it.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 A question;If a person was looking forward to earth life because they actually wanted to sin, who's side would they have chosen on the war in heaven?At that point we had no understanding...the choice was who to follow.
Alan Posted January 31, 2013 Author Posted January 31, 2013 (edited) Well there is something to this for sure- I have noticed it myself.If you are not familiar with the Hymn of the Soul, or Pearl, you have got to be. I had an old blog that I haven't used in a while but I think you will like this in particular.Am I alone in not being particularly impressed with this?To me, it is open to many interpretations and some of it appears rather awkward. I am also very cautious when it comes to the Gnostics. We have to remind ourselves that the Gnostics were very likely apostates who had mingled their version of Christian belief with other extant philosophies.Nevertheless, I would not dismiss it totally. Edited January 31, 2013 by Alan
mfbukowski Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 Am I alone in not being particularly impressed with this?Too me, it is open to many interpretations and some of it appears rather awkward. I am also very cautious when it comes to the Gnostics. We have to remind ourselves that the Gnostics were very likely apostates who had mingled their version of Christian belief with other extant philosophies.Nevertheless, I would not dismiss it totally.It was my intention to interpret it in an LDS manner. There is no such thing as being impartial in such things anyway so why not? I am not a scholar trying to pretend NOT to be partial and hiding one's intent poorly.
Alan Posted January 31, 2013 Author Posted January 31, 2013 It was my intention to interpret it in an LDS manner. There is no such thing as being impartial in such things anyway so why not? I am not a scholar trying to pretend NOT to be partial and hiding one's intent poorly.Fair comment.
rongo Posted January 31, 2013 Posted January 31, 2013 Alan, did you have the Mosiah Hancock dream in mind in your opening post?
Alan Posted February 1, 2013 Author Posted February 1, 2013 Alan, did you have the Mosiah Hancock dream in mind in your opening post?Yes, come to think of it I believe that was it.
rongo Posted February 1, 2013 Posted February 1, 2013 Like I said, much of it resonates with me. As far as the question in the opening post, I think that we varied as far as stalwartness in the pre-existence, just as we vary here on earth. I also believe that we will not progress at identical rates in the celestial kingdom. So, I accept the idea that even those who accepted the plan of salvation (kept their first estate) could have chosen to be placed in circumstances on earth that would allow them to enjoy immorality.
Alan Posted February 1, 2013 Author Posted February 1, 2013 Like I said, much of it resonates with me. As far as the question in the opening post, I think that we varied as far as stalwartness in the pre-existence, just as we vary here on earth. I also believe that we will not progress at identical rates in the celestial kingdom. So, I accept the idea that even those who accepted the plan of salvation (kept their first estate) could have chosen to be placed in circumstances on earth that would allow them to enjoy immorality.Yes, that was my point. The last thing they would want was a regime which forced them to behave (Lucifer's plan). They needed free-agency to be able to act upon their desires, so would have chosen Christ's plan in my view.
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