Former Members Of The Church

[Calm]

I'm interested which groups the writers of the CHI consider "apostate"?

My understanding is that comment is mostly concerned about polygamist groups.

[Calm]

I've often wondered about mind control in our church and realized all religion that is taught since birth, is a sort of mind control.

This is such a vague and overgeneral use of mind control that the term uses usefulness.

It is ridiculous in my opinion to equate what is usually thought of as "mind control" to parental teachings and general childrearing practices.

[cinepro]

I Know a family in my stake whose then 17yr old son thought he was a Prophet and tried to marry and then lead the YW down to Utah. He got his butt exed and was banned from all Church property. The rest of the family is very active, except for the other son. So, I don't know what all happened but the four sisters and two parents are all very active members. So, to me, the lived experience has been different

I've often wondered how a "modern day" Joseph Smith would be accepted among LDS if he came in the form of a 14-year-old Teacher and told the Bishop he had a vision where God told him that all modern day churches were corrupt.

Edited December 9, 2012 by cinepro

[sdc999]

I have known several families over the last 50 years who have had an apostate member. None of them have been required to avoid that family member in order to receive a temple recommend. In fact, they have been encouraged by their leaders to be understanding and forgiving and longsuffering on the occasions where the apostate family member has tried to lead others in the family out of the Church.

One of those families was my own with an uncle who thought of himself as a sort of new minor messiah. No one in the family was ever told to not associate with him. I have in my possession boxes of his writings to my mother, in fact.

I have no doubt that there are families that have kicked out family members who have left the Church or have engaged in behaviour that the family has found offensive; I know of families that have kicked out family members for joining the Church. This is a family dynamic, not a church dynamic. Unless you can show a consistent pattern favouring expulsion of family members among church teachings as well as actual practice, claiming that it is a result of church instruction is a faulty argument.

I believe you are right about the family dynamic. My wife's family fit that dynamic though when we left. My MIL said, "you have conned your girls and your wife, but you will not con me. (click)" Took over 7 months for her to even speak to me again. I was the favorite SIL. This was after the Sis IL went and told her after we had asked her not to. MIL is up in age and our intentions were to not cause any controversy, although MIL does not attend church anymore, her own choosing (physically able to go).

I do still get along with most of the members though. The current new bishop was just in my business and asked if I had home teachers. I chuckled and said, "yes, xxxxx puts a check mark next to my name every month so it will keep everybody happy." (ht want to kick my butt now because he may have to explain why he just robotically puts a check each month) My 'home teacher' and I have been friends for years and still golf together. No 'home teaching' goes on but religion is discussed sometimes. So, he hangs out with an apostate (and we talk apostatly on church issues) on a regular basis and has a temple rec; although, one of the high priests wanted to tell him he was not worthy of it because he agreed to help clean the temple and got an called into work. The HP could not understand why this father of 2 with a wife to support could not join all of the other retirees in their venture.

*we have not removed our names at the request of my wife who does not want to inflict any more stress on her mother.

[Tacenda]

This is such a vague and overgeneral use of mind control that the term uses usefulness.

It is ridiculous in my opinion to equate what is usually thought of as "mind control" to parental teachings and general childrearing practices.

Several primary songs come to mind.

[Saints Alive]

I've often wondered how a "modern day" Joseph Smith would be accepted among LDS if he came in the form of a 14-year-old Teacher and told the Bishop he had a vision where God told him that all modern day churches were corrupt.

By their fruits ye shall know them.

[Calm]

Several primary songs come to mind.

Right. I remember singing "I am like a Zombie"* quite often when I was teaching in Primary.

*http://www.lds.org/music/library/childrens-songbook/i-am-like-a-star?lang=eng

Edited December 9, 2012 by calmoriah

[Erin15]

@ urroner,

I see two problems here:

What a liberal expression of opinion is for me; the faith waste may already mean for a church member.

An example:

Years ago I went to a ward in Berlin and to be more precise on Fast Sunday. I gave my testimony and told my story into shortened form. After that the quorum president got up and wanted to forbid me the word. I had said only the truth and hidden even the really bad things (the abuse of my father). I was thrown out, got ban on entering the house place. I received an e-mail (today, I still have it) approximately a month later by it being reported to me what happened after that. The councellor of the bishop and the quorum president got up and claimed I would have come to destroy their testimonies. And a member pleaded "to kill subjects like me" as he said it. He shall have referred to the "Laban story" from the BoM.

Two members has left the church and a brother confessed after that to be homosexual. I have since then in Berlin in every war house ban.

I wasn't there, so I can't know for sure, but from what you describe it sounds like what you did was incredibly disrespectful and inappropriate.

[why me]

And a member pleaded "to kill subjects like me" as he said it. He shall have referred to the "Laban story" from the BoM.

The member sounds crazy. No member would threaten to kill someone for telling a narrative. Nor would any normal member threaten to kill anyone. There are crazy people everywhere. No fault of the lds church as a whole.

[why me]

@ urroner,

I see two problems here:

I have never heard a GA ever encourage shunning anyone. In fact, just the opposite. I have heard over and over again that members need to show much love to those family members who have left the church. I think that you would be best served to follow their understandings that we get from conference. Have you ever heard a GA say shun the apostate? I haven't.

[Duncan]

I wonder if this is my nephew!!!

Seriously, I do have a nephew who has led his Mom and Dad and a sister out of the church with his teachings that the church is in apostasy, all based on the old writings of Brigham Young, including the fact that polygamy should never have been banned. He was exed for openly teaching these things at church. He twists Pres. Young's words and they believe him. I make it very clear I do not support such false teachings, and keep asking my brother in law when he's going to take his second wife. He ignores me!

Is he in Canada? This happened oh, 1999 ish. Actually my first stake conference back from the mission was in April 2000, home for just a few weeks. Bishop H. David Burton was presiding and three members opposed the sustainings, I was like what the blankety blank is going on around here! In my city from then to about 2005? something there were three schisms out of the Church, but the three were not related. We had this young guy lead some people out, this older guy lead some people out of his ward and then this guy I knew in YSA. Sad.

[Duncan]

I've often wondered how a "modern day" Joseph Smith would be accepted among LDS if he came in the form of a 14-year-old Teacher and told the Bishop he had a vision where God told him that all modern day churches were corrupt.

haha! well, Joseph Smith only told a few ministers but he didn't make a big hullabaloo about it, three years later he saw Moroni and then every year after that for 4 and then the Book of Mormon comes out . Ths guy was nice and easy done today, I am a prophet and I am instructed to marry you YW of this ward and we are all moving to Utah, so get packed! Hence his getting the hoof from church property

Edited December 9, 2012 by Duncan

[ERayR]

haha! well, Joseph Smith only told a few ministers but he didn't make a big hullabaloo about it, three years later he saw Moroni and then every year after that for 4 and then the Book of Mormon comes out . Ths guy was nice and easy done today, I am a prophet and I am instructed to marry you YW of thsi ward and we are all moving to Utah, so get packed!

Nice try and so original.

[sethpayne]

I have the church handbook of instructions at home. Into this I read the following:

I see two dangers here:

1. Families are destroyed because they require to avoid the person; which have an other opinion on the church.

2. A form of "thought control" is reached; by nothing being allowed to be analyzed more critically.

There is a similar rule also at the JW. And I have seen in my choosen family what this rule means. The LDS has a powerful tool with it, to control their members, as I suppose.

Linda,

Clearly the context here indicates a concern with apostate "religious beliefs" : polygamy. We know that members of those groups have used a variety of means to gain access to LDS temples.

This statement does not apply to someone who has simply lost belief or chosen another form of Christianity.

Seth

[pogi]

I've often wondered about mind control in our church and realized all religion that is taught since birth, is a sort of mind control. Jews believe a certain way, as do Catholics etc. I've envied converts like you because it's a conversion rather something you've been taught to believe.

The purpose of mind control is to relieve the agent of agency, hence the word "control." There is a difference between cultural conditioning and mind control. There is no way around cultural conditioning, whether inside or outside of religion. It is the "nurture", rather than "nature" side of our being.

One needs not be born outside the church to be a convert. I was born into the covenant, baptized at 8, but was not converted until I was much older.

Edited December 9, 2012 by pogi

[waltzingalong]

My understanding is that comment is mostly concerned about polygamist groups.

That is also my understanding too.

[mfbukowski]

I have the church handbook of instructions at home. Into this I read the following:

I don't think so.

That is not on page 67

[Calm]

Since Linda is not a member, her copy is probably one that is either old or off the internet.

If she is in Germany, I would assume that any copy there would be in German as well so most likely off the internet, which violates copyright law. Perhaps she would tell us how she got a copy that is only supposed to be handed out to bishopric members, stake presendencies and maybe one or two others offices in general.

Edited December 10, 2012 by calmoriah

[mfbukowski]

Mind control?? LOLOLOL..oh please!!

I am a convert to this church...so I wasn't brought up in it....believe when I say..NO ONE is controlling MY mind, lady!!! I've been thinking for myself long before I joined the church and still do! And I can personally say, I know NO LDS person who is being 'mind controlled'. I dont know where you got that silly idea from. ( besides anti sites)

Oh come on! Don't you have those black helicopters following you where ever you go telling you what to think?

You probably have not been a member long enough.

[Kenngo1969]

Mind control?? LOLOLOL..oh please!!

I am a convert to this church...so I wasn't brought up in it....believe when I say..NO ONE is controlling MY mind, lady!!! I've been thinking for myself long before I joined the church and still do! And I can personally say, I know NO LDS person who is being 'mind controlled'. I dont know where you got that silly idea from. (besides anti sites)

Yes, well ... that's how it happens when the XML-7000 Mind Control Chip has achieved optimal functioning. It is able to exert absolute, total control over the subject: the subject easily is able to be manipulated without even being aware that that's what's occurring. We're gad to know that yours is functioning so well.

[Kenngo1969]

Oh come on! Don't you have those black helicopters following you where ever you go telling you what to think?

You probably have not been a member long enough.

I hear the Whup-whup-whup! of the rotors overhead just now. I better get out my tinfoil hat to block the Mindreader rays.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

@ urroner,

I see two problems here:

What a liberal expression of opinion is for me; the faith waste may already mean for a church member.

An example:

Years ago I went to a ward in Berlin and to be more precise on Fast Sunday. I gave my testimony and told my story into shortened form. After that the quorum president got up and wanted to forbid me the word. I had said only the truth and hidden even the really bad things (the abuse of my father). I was thrown out, got ban on entering the house place. I received an e-mail (today, I still have it) approximately a month later by it being reported to me what happened after that. The councellor of the bishop and the quorum president got up and claimed I would have come to destroy their testimonies. And a member pleaded "to kill subjects like me" as he said it. He shall have referred to the "Laban story" from the BoM.

Two members has left the church and a brother confessed after that to be homosexual. I have since then in Berlin in every war house ban.

And we only your misfortunant story which gets worse each time it is told. You are trying to hard to me the shoe of your foot fit the feet of those now in attendance.