Duncan Posted November 13, 2012 Author Posted November 13, 2012 I do not know of a passage of scripture that says God will not give us trials beyond our ability to cope.but there are trials that go beyond our ability, can we say they aren't from God?
Scott Lloyd Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 I must have expressed myself poorly. I am not advocating a preference for a world that is a leisurely stroll through a pretty garden.I'm glad, and I appreciate the clarification.I attempted to counter the idea that God would not give us trials beyond our ability to cope. My words were meant to be quite contrary. People, good people, collapse under the burden of trials and tribulations on a daily basis. CS Lewis was of the opinion that we become stronger through these trials and that was God's meaning. I see people being broken by their trials. Is that also God's meaning?It might be useful here to go to the precise wording of the scriptural passage in question:There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it (1 Cor. 10:13).As we can see, what is being referenced here is not trials and tribulations, but temptations.And I think Cinepro made a valid point: that if there were ever an instance where one was ever deprived of the capacity to make a choice, it would not be a sin. The person in that instance would not be a sinner, but a victim.
Freedom Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 but there are trials that go beyond our ability, can we say they aren't from God?Well that is my point, there is no doctrine that says God will not give us trials beyond our ability to cope. The doctrine is that we will not be tempted beyond our ability to resist. It is called mortality. As I stated previously, cancer is an example that is beyond our ability to cope, as is drowning. We experience both physical and mental trials that are greater than our mortal bodies can bare. I do not see a difference between emotional breakdown and physical breakdown in terms of suffering beyond our ability to cope. At least with the mental breakdown, however, we can continue on living. Physical breakdowns end in death. Which is worse, having a mental illness or having no limbs? Why is a mental breakdown more unjust than having no arms or legs?
Flyonthewall Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 I fully agree! what about grinding poverty and other stresses of life that make people snap?Grinding poverty and other stresses eat away at us, and it is only through the grace of Christ that we can get thru some of them.Why it seems some people can access the grace of Christ easier, or more readily, is beyond me.
Freedom Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 Grinding poverty and other stresses eat away at us, and it is only through the grace of Christ that we can get thru some of them.Why it seems some people can access the grace of Christ easier, or more readily, is beyond me.I agree with your point, but mental illness is a whole different issue. Nevertheless, grinding poverty was the nature of virtually all human existence up until the 18th Century in Europe.
Kemara Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 No, I wouldn't. You want Freedom's underwear instead of your own? I hope you are both at least the same gender. Are you sure you are not being disagreeable just for the sake of it? 2
cinepro Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) I read this to mean that he will protect us from temptations that Satan may throw our way that we are not able to resist.Again, what would a theoretical temptation be that we are not "able to resist"? Give me an example of something that God won't allow to happen because a person isn't able to "resist". Edited November 14, 2012 by cinepro
Freedom Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 Again, what would a theoretical temptation be that we are not "able to resist"? Give me an example of something that God won't allow to happen because a person isn't able to "resist".It is what it is. I can only draw conclusions based on what the scriptures say. Since I have always been able to resist temptations (I just choose not to from time to time) I wouldn't know; likely because God has not suffered me to be tempted to such a degree. I have never met a person who said they were forced to sin. They all acknowledge the point that they made a decision, a decision that they could have resisted but elected not to.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 Alzheimer's has run in my family and including my mother, I have seen a few who have died with it. So I understand seeing what it's like to have someone you love dearly reduced to what appears to be randomly firing synapses. I would certainly say that there are those that mentally reach a point where choice is a non-issue... some even seem to be born with this dilemma.All the best,EeeeeeeeMudcatMy mother-in-law has this condition and my wife and I are now living with my mother who can no longer live alone...I am losing my mother twice. It is easier to suffer than to see someone you love suffer. Good to see you hear, you are missed. Hope all is well at home, have a great Thanksgiving and Christmas.Bill
Flyonthewall Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 I agree with your point, but mental illness is a whole different issue. Nevertheless, grinding poverty was the nature of virtually all human existence up until the 18th Century in Europe.I agree, mental illness is a whole different animal. It would be similar to why some people get cancer, or MS, or ALS or any number of other diseases. It involves the frailty of our mortality. Some things we inherit through our genes, some things we develope due to environment or trauma or simply age.My grandmother, and my wife's grandmother both developed dementia in their later years, both were either approaching 90 or 90+. Their illness had nothing to do with who they were, it was simply the ravages of time and their bodies wearing out.Our bodies require a delicate balance of chemicals and tissue to function properly, I am amazed that we do as well as we do considering all the ways something can be tipped out of balance. 2
Calm Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 Nevertheless, grinding poverty was the nature of virtually all human existence up until the 18th Century in Europe.This seems to be so easily forgotten by some and instead they see as some right given them simply by being born human to have a certain level of living that includes what not so long ago would have been seen as sumptuous luxury. And when asked why they deserve it when so many don't have it even in this day and age, they point to others and say something along the lines of "if that person has it, then I should be able to". Informing them that the other individual has worked hard to earn his current material status doesn't seem to matter to them.It's a very strange and very sad mentality, especially if they come from a family that has been supporting them through behaviours that are going to implode some time in the future, such as bad spending on credit, too many loans, sponging off of others, or even criminal activity. 3
bcuzbcuz Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) Hi bcuzbcuz,Reading the thread and I have a question. I think the difficulty in understanding your particular view, is that .. at least to me it seems like I am seeing your position sort of defined in the negative. More like I am understanding what you think God's relationship to human suffering isn't.. but not getting the best picture of what you think that relationship actually is exactly.Let me ask you. What do you think the relationship between human suffering and God is?Respectfully,MudcatI originally responded to the idea that stated " god will not give us a greater tribulations than we can manage". I do not believe that. It somehow implies that we could manage any tribulation if only we seek god's help, in the right way, or at the right time or under the proper circumstances. It implies that we are left to our Torments until we figure out the rules of the "game". I know and have known good people who pleaded with god to remove the torment from themselves or from a loved one and nothing has happened. Suffering is most often ignored by god. Edited November 14, 2012 by bcuzbcuz 1
Duncan Posted November 14, 2012 Author Posted November 14, 2012 I originally responded to the idea that stated " god will not give us a greater tribulations than we can manage". I do not believe that. It somehow implies that we could manage any tribulation if only we seek god's help, in the right way, or at the right time or under the proper circumstances. It implies that we are left to our Torments until we figure out the rules of the "game".I know and have known good people who pleaded with god to remove the torment from themselves or from a loved one and nothing has happened. Suffering is most often ignored by god.that's a good point-Paul's thorn in the flesh or something
Nathair/|\ Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 I must have expressed myself poorly. I am not advocating a preference for a world that is a leisurely stroll through a pretty garden. I attempted to counter the idea that God would not give us trials beyond our ability to cope. My words were meant to be quite contrary. People, good people, collapse under the burden of trials and tribulations on a daily basis. CS Lewis was of the opinion that we become stronger through these trials and that was God's meaning. I see people being broken by their trials. Is that also God's meaning?Conan, What is best in life? 1
bcuzbcuz Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 Conan, What is best in life?He just about sums it up. Oh, and 'wailing and gnashing of teeth'.
CV75 Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 Just happened to read this today:http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/10/learning-with-our-hearts?lang=engBy coming unto Christ, every soul can see, feel, and know of a surety that Christ suffered and atoned for our sins that we may have eternal life. If we repent, we will not suffer needlessly. Thanks to Him, wounded souls may be healed and broken hearts may be mended. There is no burden that He cannot ease or remove. He knows about our infirmities and sicknesses. I promise and testify to you that when all doors seem to be closed, when everything else seems to fail, He will not fail you. Christ will help and is the way out, whether the struggle is with an addiction, depression, or something else. He knows “how to succor his people.” Marriages and families that are struggling for whatever reason—economic challenges, bad media influences, or family dynamics—will feel a calming influence from heaven. It is comforting to “feel and see” that He rose from the dead “with healing in his wings,” that because of Him, we will meet and embrace again those beloved ones who have passed away. Verily our conversion unto Him is rewarded with our healing. 1
Mudcat Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 I originally responded to the idea that stated " god will not give us a greater tribulations than we can manage". I do not believe that. It somehow implies that we could manage any tribulation if only we seek god's help, in the right way, or at the right time or under the proper circumstances. It implies that we are left to our Torments until we figure out the rules of the "game".I know and have known good people who pleaded with god to remove the torment from themselves or from a loved one and nothing has happened. Suffering is most often ignored by god.Thanks for the clarification bcuzbcuz!I think I understand you more clearly. I don't think I entirely disagree with you. A person might want God to heal a terminal disease or some such that they or a loved one has... and it may be His will for the same person to die with it at His appointed time, so not much chance of divine intervention on that matter.However, I don't think God ignores suffering. I think he is fully aware of it and doesn't abandon us in our time of crisis. God can give a person the strength to face such things in faith and hope. The point isn't about alieviating human suffering in our present state, it's about offering us a path from an imperfect human condition in which suffering is a natural element to an eternal life that is perfected and escapes such elements.Regards,Mudcat 1
thesometimesaint Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) calmoriah:Thought you might like this.http://thinkprogress...ney-inheritanc/Ps or Edited November 14, 2012 by thesometimesaint
bcuzbcuz Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) Thanks for the clarification bcuzbcuz!I think I understand you more clearly. I don't think I entirely disagree with you. A person might want God to heal a terminal disease or some such that they or a loved one has... and it may be His will for the same person to die with it at His appointed time, so not much chance of divine intervention on that matter.However, I don't think God ignores suffering. I think he is fully aware of it and doesn't abandon us in our time of crisis. God can give a person the strength to face such things in faith and hope. The point isn't about alieviating human suffering in our present state, it's about offering us a path from an imperfect human condition in which suffering is a natural element to an eternal life that is perfected and escapes such elements.Regards,MudcatThere are people who enter this existence being thrust headfirst into torment and pain. From birth to death their breaths are drawn in agony and suffering. Some are born into squalor and remain there to the day they die. Some go hungry each and every night. Some are mistreated, beaten, prostituted and abused. I remember going home to one of my students in the middle of winter (40 below outside). Three generations shared the two room house. A pot of boiling water, with four tea bags floating in it, sat on the top of the pot-bellied stove in the middle of the small living room. The grandfather dipped a mug into the broth and offered it to his grandson. The boy took his mug and sat on the edge of his bed in the far corner of the room. His bed was an uncovered foam mattress with pocks and holes where the foam had been plucked out. The mattress was not only a dirty, brown-yellow colour but the whole of the wall side of the mattress was a block of ice. The ice was a glistening opaque white mound that obviously froze and thawed depending on the heat of the room. Granddad dipped another mug in the pot for me. The only chair in the room was occupied by granddad and he would occasionally bend over and spit his tobacco juices into an old rusty lard can. So I had no desire to deprive him of his throne. One of the grandchildren came over and offered me, from her dirty, small hands, a piece of moose jerky which I chawed and tugged on. An older boy talked about how treacherous the road back to town was that night since there was no moon and the roads hadn't been plowed, so he asked me if I wanted to sleep over. I looked around the room and at the other two mattresses on the floor and made up some excuse about having papers to mark. My gaze did not go unnoticed and everyone in the room chuckled out loud. They had seen that look on the faces of nado-sans before.On my 45 minute drive back into town that night my thoughts were riveted into what I had just experienced. I think back on it many times. There is no glory in suffering. There are no lessons learned. I'm sorry, I just don't see any faith and hope there. Edited November 15, 2012 by bcuzbcuz
CV75 Posted November 14, 2012 Posted November 14, 2012 They learned to chuckle at "that look" and that excuse. They learned to share whatever they had and look to the welfare of others--that goes beyond faith and hope and into the territory of charity. Something can be learned from that; perhaps not only by those who have already learned it.
Freedom Posted November 15, 2012 Posted November 15, 2012 On my 45 minute drive back into town that night my thoughts were riveted into what I had just experienced. I think back on it many times. There is no glory in suffering. There are no lessons learned. I'm sorry, I just don't see any faith and hope there.What you saw there was the standard for human existence for 100,000 years. They lived in poverty relative to you, but they were not impoverished. They had a home, they had food, they had health. What more is needed? You cannot impost the absolute stupefying wealth of the past 70 years as the minimum standard that is required to be human. You have become so accustomed to your wealth that you do not know what it is like to be normal. Just as Romney was accused of not being able to relate to the average american, the average american is unable to relate to all the rest of humanity. 1
Duncan Posted November 15, 2012 Author Posted November 15, 2012 What you saw there was the standard for human existence for 100,000 years. They lived in poverty relative to you, but they were not impoverished. They had a home, they had food, they had health. What more is needed? You cannot impost the absolute stupefying wealth of the past 70 years as the minimum standard that is required to be human. You have become so accustomed to your wealth that you do not know what it is like to be normal. Just as Romney was accused of not being able to relate to the average american, the average american is unable to relate to all the rest of humanity.There is a new word for that, "first world problems"
Mudcat Posted November 15, 2012 Posted November 15, 2012 There is no glory in suffering. There are no lessons learned. I'm sorry, I just don't see any faith and hope there.I think your wrong here. Christ, for example, is glorified for His suffering and many lessons have been learned from it and the only lasting faith and hope that is available is found therein.Your focus seems entirely devoid of any focus towards journeys end. Rather you seem to appropriate final justice to a temporal moment. I don't see the point in that really, there is more to it. You don't see seem to figure that into your reckoning of things and I don't suppose I can do much about that other than to point it out.Been nice talking and thanks for the engagement.All the best,Mudcat
bcuzbcuz Posted November 15, 2012 Posted November 15, 2012 Your focus seems entirely devoid of any focus towards journeys end. Rather you seem to appropriate final justice to a temporal moment. I don't see the point in that really, there is more to it. You don't see seem to figure that into your reckoning of things and I don't suppose I can do much about that other than to point it out.Been nice talking and thanks for the engagement.All the best,MudcatYou're right, I do not have any focus, as you call it, on the journeys end. Poverty here on earth is not rewarded in any hereafter, there is no balancing of the budget, no tallying of the record. No one's keeping score. If injustices are not put right in this world then it just isn't done.
bcuzbcuz Posted November 15, 2012 Posted November 15, 2012 What you saw there was the standard for human existence for 100,000 years. They lived in poverty relative to you, but they were not impoverished. They had a home, they had food, they had health. What more is needed? You cannot impost the absolute stupefying wealth of the past 70 years as the minimum standard that is required to be human. You have become so accustomed to your wealth that you do not know what it is like to be normal. Just as Romney was accused of not being able to relate to the average american, the average american is unable to relate to all the rest of humanity.I agree with you on many points. But I think phrasing it in 'relative poverty' is not entirely true. Poverty has many layers of degradation. Those who have lost hope and given up also find themselves losing in other areas. Hygiene suffers and so does health. Holes in the roof don't get fixed, much of life is just 'make do'. Education loses its purpose. Family as a group suffers. I've often meant to ask about your Canadian flag. The story I told is from a native reserve in northern B.C. All the reserves I worked on, with one exception, the Haida on the Queen Charlottes, lived in abject poverty. What money that did come in was often ripped off by unscrupulous merchants.
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