Overwhelming Life Trials

[Duncan]

I hear sometimes that God won't give us things, experiences that we can't handle. I don't know how that fits into times in our lives ot other people's lives when things become overwhelking. My non-Mormon g-grandma, according to family lore, "rusted out" and had dimentia. Her and many others it seems have some breaking point that is crossed. How do we know what comes from God and does he want us to be overwhelmed to the passing of the breaking point? like people take their own lives because they can't handle it-where does not giving us things we can't handle fit into that?

[blackstrap]

I often think that God thinks that we can handle WAY more than We think we can. I hope He is not wrong 'cause I don't think I can handle that much before I lose it. Maybe I will lose it after I can't remember whether or not I ever had it!

[Freedom]

We now know that dementia is not caused by being overwhelmed, it is a mental illness. The promise, as I understand it, is that there will be no temptation that we cannot resist, not that there will not be experiences that may cause lasting mental or emotional damage. Soldiers come back injured because their bodies could not handle the physical stresses of the battle field. This does not mean that they will loose the capacity to resist temptation.

[blackstrap]

My last post is a good example of what I am fearful of!

Edited November 13, 2012 by blackstrap

[Duncan]

We now know that dementia is not caused by being overwhelmed, it is a mental illness. The promise, as I understand it, is that there will be no temptation that we cannot resist, not that there will not be experiences that may cause lasting mental or emotional damage. Soldiers come back injured because their bodies could not handle the physical stresses of the battle field. This does not mean that they will loose the capacity to resist temptation.

grinding poverty is a cause of dementia have you ever seen the movie Chaplin? His mother just broke and ended up in a mental ward. Did God want her to go through that that she and my ancestor lose the capacity of making rational thought processes? Temptation and mental illness are two different things, Satan can't overcome us without our approval. I don't get what God expects from some people that just break and can't handle life anymore, like why would things get so bad that they just can't take care of themselves anymore and some think suicide is the answer to the problem

[Calm]

I hear sometimes that God won't give us things, experiences that we can't handle

I believe the condition attached to that is that he won't hold us accountable for situations for which we can't actually control our internal reaction, such as long term effects on a child due to child abuse may make it impossible for him to trust enough to accept the Atonement in this life. In the next, he will have the chance to heal and in that way, will be given the chance to "handle" his experience.

IOW, if something does overwhelm us, it is not God who is giving it to us and commanding us to achieve, but it is simply a byproduct of living in the imperfect state of mortality and God will not hold accountable those who are not able to meet the conditions of accountability in these cases.

Another possibility is that God is measuring our spiritual response, which may not be the same as our external or even mental response. We may not even be as aware of our spiritual response as he is.

Edited November 13, 2012 by calmoriah

[Duncan]

I believe the condition attached to that is that he won't hold us accountable for situations for which we can't actually control our internal reaction, such as long term effects on a child due to child abuse may make it impossible for him to trust enough to accept the Atonement in this life. In the next, he will have the chance to heal and in that way, will be given the chance to "handle" his experience.

IOW, if something does overwhelm us, it is not God who is giving it to us and commanding us to achieve, but it is simply a byproduct of living in the imperfect state of mortality and God will not hold accountable those who are not able to meet the conditions of accountability in these cases.

Another possibility is that God is measuring our spiritual response, which may not be the same as our external or even mental response. We may not even be as aware of our spiritual response as he is.

that's great! I watched a documentary last night about Napolean's entry into Russia and how it was a disaster and when the French Army came out people froze to death, had disease, starved to death, deserted and some people would say that every once in a while you would hear a shot in the forest and they would find a Frenchman had killed themselves because of the horrible situation these men were in . I guess if they passed beyond the breaking point they weren't accountable for their actions because the brain is what the brain is

[Calm]

My uncle committed suicide. He had a brain tumour that had eaten his brain about a third of the way through and was going blind. His gun went off while he was cleaning it...obviously a suicide, but not talked about that way for the sake of his wife. His kids were furious with him; not that he killed himself, they could understand that but that he deprived them of a chance to say goodbye. Of course if he could have thought that clearly ahead of the consequences of his actions, he probably would have been able to control himself enough not to do it.

No one thinks that I am aware of he was the least bit accountable for his action....he was missing almost half of his brain, for goodness sake! It was not a case of his failing to handle it in my view, but more of a body's automatic response that his mind couldn't overcome because the connection between spirit and body was scrambled due to the physical damage. How this damage was reflected on the spiritual side of things, I can only imagine.

Edited November 13, 2012 by calmoriah

[Duncan]

My uncle committed suicide. He had a brain tumour that had eaten his brain about a third of the way through and was going blind. His gun went off while he was cleaning it...obviously a suicide, but not talked about that way for the sake of his wife. His kids were furious with him; not that he killed himself, they could understand that but that he deprived them of a chance to say goodbye. Of course if he could have thought that clearly ahead of the consequences of his actions, he probably would have been able to control himself enough not to do it.

No one thinks that I am aware of he was the least bit accountable for his action....he was missing almost half of his brain, for goodness sake! It was not a case of his failing to handle it in my view, but more of a body's automatic response that his mind couldn't overcome because the connection between spirit and body was scrambled due to the physical damage. How this damage was reflected on the spiritual side of things, I can only imagine.

Sorry to hear that about your uncle. My Mom's father's cousin was a Canadian Soldier in WW1 and he was gassed and his wife left him and rumour ...has it he did himself in as his condition and situation was too much to handle for him apparently-I don't know why it would have gotten to that point wher ehe thought death was his only option or what God expects from him. He couldn't take care of himself from what I understand

[blackstrap]

We should acknowledge that our feelings about suicide are strongly guided by culture. Asian traditions look upon suicide,at least some reasons for it,as honorable. I myself am not black and white on the issue. The Romans,it seems, accepted suicide as a way to preserve the honor of the family after failure in office. Now,here,one just resigns.

[Duncan]

We should acknowledge that our feelings about suicide are strongly guided by culture. Asian traditions look upon suicide,at least some reasons for it,as honorable. I myself am not black and white on the issue. The Romans,it seems, accepted suicide as a way to preserve the honor of the family after failure in office. Now,here,one just resigns.

That's true-I could say something here but I fear the thread would get shut down!

[Tacenda]

Dementia/Alzheimers took over my mom starting at around the age 62 when she started showing signs and gradually went down hill until her passing at 75. In my opinion much too long to suffer compared to other diseases. Sometimes I feel like I'm going to get struck down when I think that even the Saviour's suffering was over quicker than that. And she was an angel. I seriously can't name a time in her life that she sinned. It was so unfair and it's a wonder I'm not Athiest.

[Mudcat]

Hi Duncan,

I hear sometimes that God won't give us things, experiences that we can't handle.

I don't know who you hear that from but I disagree. I do think that God aligns our circumstances to bring us to Him, but if God only presented us with circumstances that we could handle ourselves.. then why would we seek Him?

I don't know how that fits into times in our lives ot other people's lives when things become overwhelming. My non-Mormon g-grandma, according to family lore, "rusted out" and had dimentia. Her and many others it seems have some breaking point that is crossed. How do we know what comes from God and does he want us to be overwhelmed to the passing of the breaking point?

Alzheimer's has run in my family and including my mother, I have seen a few who have died with it. So I understand seeing what it's like to have someone you love dearly reduced to what appears to be randomly firing synapses. I would certainly say that there are those that mentally reach a point where choice is a non-issue... some even seem to be born with this dilemma.

This seems to be the human condition, there are some who were born beyond capability of choice and those that if they live long enough will have something strip choice from their mind. I am assuming that you are calling the realistic deprivation of agency a "breaking point"?

like people take their own lives because they can't handle it-where does not giving us things we can't handle fit into that?

From my own perspective, I don't know of any Biblical example of a person taking their own life because of things that God couldn't help them through. These seem to mainly have been matters of pride for the most part... some futile way of establishing a sense of control in their own demise.

That said, if our expectation of life is one that incorporates the notion that God has built us a neat little zoo cage to keep us safe until we die.. we are in for a let down and have mistaken God's intentions. This place isn't about this place. This place is about getting us to a better place... at least those who are willing to make the trip.

All the best,

Mudcat

[Duncan]

Hi Duncan,

I don't know who you hear that from but I disagree. I do think that God aligns our circumstances to bring us to Him, but if God only presented us with circumstances that we could handle ourselves.. then why would we seek Him?

Alzheimer's has run in my family and including my mother, I have seen a few who have died with it. So I understand seeing what it's like to have someone you love dearly reduced to what appears to be randomly firing synapses. I would certainly say that there are those that mentally reach a point where choice is a non-issue... some even seem to be born with this dilemma.

This seems to be the human condition, there are some who were born beyond capability of choice and those that if they live long enough will have something strip choice from their mind. I am assuming that you are calling the realistic deprivation of agency a "breaking point"?

From my own perspective, I don't know of any Biblical example of a person taking their own life because of things that God couldn't help them through. These seem to mainly have been matters of pride for the most part... some futile way of establishing a sense of control in their own demise.

That said, if our expectation of life is one that incorporates the notion that God has built us a neat little zoo cage to keep us safe until we die.. we are in for a let down and have mistaken God's intentions. This place isn't about this place. This place is about getting us to a better place... at least those who are willing to make the trip.

All the best,

Mudcat

excellent food for thought!

[Freedom]

We could ask why would God allow anything. Why does he allow the child soldiers in Africa, the abuse of women in Kazakhstan, the spanish inquisition. Perhaps it is sad when some break down emotionally but why is this any worse than one dying from physical injuries? One broke under emotional strain, the other broke under physical strain. There are no promises that we will not have experiences we cannot handle. My life is full of such experiences. But I have never been tempted beyond my ability to resist. Emotional breakdowns are a way of your body protecting you, from shutting down to preserve itself from further trauma. Those who suffer an emotional breakdown, like those born with a mental or physical handicap, give the rest of us an opportunity to give service.

[Duncan]

We could ask why would God allow anything. Why does he allow the child soldiers in Africa, the abuse of women in Kazakhstan, the spanish inquisition. Perhaps it is sad when some break down emotionally but why is this any worse than one dying from physical injuries? One broke under emotional strain, the other broke under physical strain. There are no promises that we will not have experiences we cannot handle. My life is full of such experiences. But I have never been tempted beyond my ability to resist. Emotional breakdowns are a way of your body protecting you, from shutting down to preserve itself from further trauma. Those who suffer an emotional breakdown, like those born with a mental or physical handicap, give the rest of us an opportunity to give service.

that's true, thank you! I have had several breakdowns in my life as well-well, two

[Flyonthewall]

It is not things/experiences, but temptations. We will not be tempted beyond our capacity to resist...however I believe that is if we turn to God, and if we are following Christ.

Those who are already caught up in sin will not be able to resist the same level of temptation as if they were not...IMHO.

That being said, dimentia or ahlziemers is not a temptation, they are diseases that affect our brains. We can no more resist them than we can appendicitis or cancer.

[Duncan]

It is not things/experiences, but temptations. We will not be tempted beyond our capacity to resist...however I believe that is if we turn to God, and if we are following Christ.

Those who are already caught up in sin will not be able to resist the same level of temptation as if they were not...IMHO.

That being said, dimentia or ahlziemers is not a temptation, they are diseases that affect our brains. We can no more resist them than we can appendicitis or cancer.

I fully agree! what about grinding poverty and other stresses of life that make people snap?

Edited November 13, 2012 by Duncan

[Freedom]

I fully agree! what about grinding poverty and other stresses of life that make people snap?

Circumstances do not make people snap, it they did then all people who endure hardship would be in mental institutions. We now know that it is a pre-existing mental illness that is amplified under stress. People who 'snap', are mentally ill and live their life trying to cope with it but when their life gets disrupted, they break down. The same is true of physical illness. I recall having the stomach flue will on a camping trip with one of my children. I would have been fine if I were at home, but we had to hike out, take a ferry, then long uncomfortable bus ride home. It was too much for my body to handle, but of course, the others on the trip had a great time.

If you have had breakdowns in the past then you, like me, suffer from a mental illness. Some people get cancer, some severe arthritis, others have learning disabilities, others have mental illnesses. The breakdowns don't occur because life become too much, they occur because you are ill, and often life gets out of control because of the illness. Our inability to cope as well as others causes problems - some can't follow through with commitments because they forget or don't have the emotional strength to finish important tasks; as a result, the house of cards comes tumbling down from time to time.

The illness makes it difficult to hold on to relationships, jobs, and friendships; nevertheless, I would rather have my struggles than be a woman in the middle east, or a boy in Somalia, or a host of other possibilities. We are given our weaknesses so that we can become stronger people, more able to return to life with God. I know, when in the think of things, this is hard to believe; but having become acquainted with grief having fallen time and time again, I am understanding why I have my struggles. I have certain strengths that, un-tempered, would certainly keep me out of heaven. I love to learn, but my brain fights against me. I struggle to remember names, but I can't even remember my children's birth dates. Well, I hear people say, all fathers forget their children's birth dates. No, they do not. I have them written down and I check them all the time because I can't remember them. I don't know the names of my nieces and nephews - whenever we visit with them, I have to review their names over and over again and keep a list hidden with me at all times. So this is my lot in life, but I take it in stride and am thankful that I have the capacity to use very effective coping mechanisms.

I know a fellow who has a photographic memory. He is astounding. But he has autism. He works at a low paying blue collar job, had a brief but turbulent marriage, and is constantly doing the most strange things to really anger all around him. He could be a nuclear physicist, a brain surgeon, a linguist. He can learn anything. He read the Harry Potter books once each and has them all memorized. He can almost name the very page something is said. Nevertheless, I would not trade my weakness for his strengths, not at the cost he has to pay. I could not bare his struggles anymore than he could bare mine. He envies me and cannot understand why I envy him.

[Duncan]

Circumstances do not make people snap, it they did then all people who endure hardship would be in mental institutions. We now know that it is a pre-existing mental illness that is amplified under stress. People who 'snap', are mentally ill and live their life trying to cope with it but when their life gets disrupted, they break down. The same is true of physical illness. I recall having the stomach flue will on a camping trip with one of my children. I would have been fine if I were at home, but we had to hike out, take a ferry, then long uncomfortable bus ride home. It was too much for my body to handle, but of course, the others on the trip had a great time.

If you have had breakdowns in the past then you, like me, suffer from a mental illness. Some people get cancer, some severe arthritis, others have learning disabilities, others have mental illnesses. The breakdowns don't occur because life become too much, they occur because you are ill, and often life gets out of control because of the illness. Our inability to cope as well as others causes problems - some can't follow through with commitments because they forget or don't have the emotional strength to finish important tasks; as a result, the house of cards comes tumbling down from time to time.

The illness makes it difficult to hold on to relationships, jobs, and friendships; nevertheless, I would rather have my struggles than be a woman in the middle east, or a boy in Somalia, or a host of other possibilities. We are given our weaknesses so that we can become stronger people, more able to return to life with God. I know, when in the think of things, this is hard to believe; but having become acquainted with grief having fallen time and time again, I am understanding why I have my struggles. I have certain strengths that, un-tempered, would certainly keep me out of heaven. I love to learn, but my brain fights against me. I struggle to remember names, but I can't even remember my children's birth dates. Well, I hear people say, all fathers forget their children's birth dates. No, they do not. I have them written down and I check them all the time because I can't remember them. I don't know the names of my nieces and nephews - whenever we visit with them, I have to review their names over and over again and keep a list hidden with me at all times. So this is my lot in life, but I take it in stride and am thankful that I have the capacity to use very effective coping mechanisms.

I know a fellow who has a photographic memory. He is astounding. But he has autism. He works at a low paying blue collar job, had a brief but turbulent marriage, and is constantly doing the most strange things to really anger all around him. He could be a nuclear physicist, a brain surgeon, a linguist. He can learn anything. He read the Harry Potter books once each and has them all memorized. He can almost name the very page something is said. Nevertheless, I would not trade my weakness for his strengths, not at the cost he has to pay. I could not bare his struggles anymore than he could bare mine. He envies me and cannot understand why I envy him.

so circumstances exacerbate mental illness?

photographic memory? watch this!

[Calm]

if God only presented us with circumstances that we could handle ourselves.. then why would we seek Him?

Beautiful point...

[bcuzbcuz]

God not giving us more than we can handle is nonsense. Many good people crack under the physical and mental strains they go through. A god that hands out trials and tribulations to test us, is a sarcastic and cruel god, playing with us, prodding, poking until we either turn and ask for help, or sink under the pressure. Those who have learned to play by his rules simply ask from the get-go and smirk when handed wealth and health and see it as just rewards for their being able to follow orders.

There are no scriptures that say God will not give us trials that we cannot conquer, that is a statement of man. It is wishful thinking.

[Storm Rider]

God not giving us more than we can handle is nonsense. Many good people crack under the physical and mental strains they go through. A god that hands out trials and tribulations to test us, is a sarcastic and cruel god, playing with us, prodding, poking until we either turn and ask for help, or sink under the pressure. Those who have learned to play by his rules simply ask from the get-go and smirk when handed wealth and health and see it as just rewards for their being able to follow orders.

There are no scriptures that say God will not give us trials that we cannot conquer, that is a statement of man. It is wishful thinking.

Are you responding to someone in particular...or just venting? I am not sure we have anyone yet defend the position you are attacking.

As an aside, this life is a trial; the entire purpose of creation is to bring us back into his presence. However, that objective does not come without effort on our part. We must learn to live by faith; to love choosing the right; to overcome the weaknesses of this carnal existence. That is not a sarcastic or cruel God, but our Father that seeks to make us like he is. This promise was sealed withe the blood of the Jesus Christ. Some of us are the type of people that need to be compelled to follow; we are slow to be humble, slow to respond to steady prodding of the Holy Spirit. More blessed is he that does not need such prodding.

[Kemara]

A god that hands out trials and tribulations to test us, is a sarcastic and cruel god, playing with us, prodding, poking until we either turn and ask for help, or sink under the pressure. Those who have learned to play by his rules simply ask from the get-go and smirk when handed wealth and health and see it as just rewards for their being able to follow orders.

There are no scriptures that say God will not give us trials that we cannot conquer, that is a statement of man. It is wishful thinking.

bcuzbcuz, you have inadvertently provided a fantastic example of what a statement of man that has no basis in scripture looks like.

[Kemara]

I think that the belief that God will not tempt us or give us trials above that which we are able to bear are often based on a misunderstanding of 1 Corinthians 10:13:

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

I have found that the words “…with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it” are often left out when discussing this principle. I believe that it is possible to be tempted above that which we are able to bear when we do not take advantage of the escape route that is provided.

Using 1 Cor 10:13 as his scriptural support, Neal Maxwell, on page 41 of his book Things As They Really Are, said the following:

God will protect us against an overload of temptations from the adversary, so that we are not tempted above that which we are able to bear; there will always be a way to escape if, indeed, we are searching for it.

I also do not believe that temptations and trials are necessarily the same things. Nor do I believe that temptations and difficult circumstances are necessarily the same things. As such, I see no reason why and do not believe that difficult circumstances necessarily have an escape route. If my belief is correct then difficult circumstances can indeed be unbearable.

With regards to temptation James 1:13-15 states:

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

This seems to be in line with the view of the Encyclopedia of Mormonism:

Latter-day Saints believe that though God does not tempt human beings to do evil, he does, for benevolent purposes, allow them to be tempted.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Kemara