CV75 Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 I hear sometimes that God won't give us things, experiences that we can't handle. I don't know how that fits into times in our lives ot other people's lives when things become overwhelking. My non-Mormon g-grandma, according to family lore, "rusted out" and had dimentia. Her and many others it seems have some breaking point that is crossed. How do we know what comes from God and does he want us to be overwhelmed to the passing of the breaking point? like people take their own lives because they can't handle it-where does not giving us things we can't handle fit into that?There is really only one kind of breaking point that the Lord gives us—the broken heart that is described in D&C 59:8.The rest (all forms of “giving out / giving up / giving in”) come from human frailty and imperfection. They are exposed in mortality and covered by the Redemption—the most obvious being illness, disability, death, sin, weakness, etc. God gives us mortal life and weakness (Ether 12:12) that we may be humble (break our hearts) and follow Him.Regardless of what we may see, victims of suicide and dementia still have immortal spirits, and from their point of view are not beyond the reach of the Lord to judge the heart and extend His mercy and grace outside of this world. There is still something of value to be learned by them and by those who are called upon to bear their burdens. 2
cinepro Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 Suppose the rules changed tomorrow and suddenly God decided He could give us trials or temptations that we couldn't "bear".How would the world be different?
Duncan Posted November 13, 2012 Author Posted November 13, 2012 Suppose the rules changed tomorrow and suddenly God decided He could give us trials or temptations that we couldn't "bear".How would the world be different?this is the thing, with some people in some situation what does God honestly expect people to do and react?
Kemara Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 Suppose the rules changed tomorrow and suddenly God decided He could give us trials or temptations that we couldn't "bear".How would the world be different? There would be a sharp increase in the sale of sleeping pills and vodka after not being able to bear reading inane posts on message boards. 2
bcuzbcuz Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 bcuzbcuz, you have inadvertently provided a fantastic example of what a statement of man that has no basis in scripture looks like.And you seem to equate temptation with trials. Can you find any verse that gives credence to your position? Are you of the opinion that physical and emotional trials are merely temptations? I can't think of the last time I was tempted to be sick.
bcuzbcuz Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 Latter-day Saints believe that though God does not tempt human beings to do evil, he does, for benevolent purposes, allow them to be tempted.That's merely double-think
Kemara Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 And you seem to equate temptation with trials. Can you find any verse that gives credence to your position? Are you of the opinion that physical and emotional trials are merely temptations? I can't think of the last time I was tempted to be sick. How on earth did you arrive at the conclusion that I equate temptation witht trials? Please, show me the reasoning you used to come to that conclusion. Please take the time to actually read everything I posted before making any more demonstratively false statements.
bcuzbcuz Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) Are you responding to someone in particular...or just venting? I am not sure we have anyone yet defend the position you are attacking.As an aside, this life is a trial; the entire purpose of creation is to bring us back into his presence. However, that objective does not come without effort on our part. We must learn to live by faith; to love choosing the right; to overcome the weaknesses of this carnal existence. That is not a sarcastic or cruel God, but our Father that seeks to make us like he is. This promise was sealed withe the blood of the Jesus Christ. Some of us are the type of people that need to be compelled to follow; we are slow to be humble, slow to respond to steady prodding of the Holy Spirit. More blessed is he that does not need such prodding.I addressed the topic of the OP, if you call that venting, then so be it.I cared for a severely crippled, damaged child for 15 years. This child was damaged at the age of three months, a shaken baby. For the first three years of this child's life, whose body was racked by excruciating pain and torment, who spent 15 minutes of fitful sleep and 45 minutes of muscular spasm and epileptic fits 24/7, no one in the house got a full night's sleep.Pain, I can take, but why a small child? Edited November 13, 2012 by bcuzbcuz
Kemara Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) That's merely double-think I think that it is rather ironic that you would use a term coined by Geroge Orwell, it was he afterall who said, "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear". You dont seem too fond of other people's freedom, which is something Orwell was passionate about.Please demonstrate how the statement in question simultaneously accepts two mutually contradictory beliefs. Very best of luck with that. Edited November 13, 2012 by Kemara 1
bcuzbcuz Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 How on earth did you arrive at the conclusion that I equate temptation witht trials? Please, show me the reasoning you used to come to that conclusion. Please take the time to actually read everything I posted before making any more demonstratively false statements.Your scripture quotes, of which you state I have no basis in, talk only of temptation. Your second post alludes to my points exactly. Pain is not a temptation. Mental suffering is not a temptation. Unless. of course, you believe that pain leads into temptation.
Kemara Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) Your scripture quotes, of which you state I have no basis in, talk only of temptation. Your second post alludes to my points exactly. Pain is not a temptation. Mental suffering is not a temptation. Unless. of course, you believe that pain leads into temptation.That is mostly correct, but lets not split hairs. So you admit that your original characterization of my position was completely false. It would probably be a good idea for you to take a bit of time to comprehend things properly before rushing to judgement. Edited November 13, 2012 by Kemara
Scott Lloyd Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) God not giving us more than we can handle is nonsense. Many good people crack under the physical and mental strains they go through. A god that hands out trials and tribulations to test us, is a sarcastic and cruel god, playing with us, prodding, poking until we either turn and ask for help, or sink under the pressure.The above remark brings to mind the following quotation from C. S. Lewis:"By the goodness of God we mean nowadays almost exclusively His lovingness; and in this we may be right. And by Love, in this context, most of us mean kindness—the desire to see others than the self happy; not happy in this way or in that, but just happy. What would really satisfy us would be a God who said of anything we happened to like doing, 'What does it matter so long as they are contented?' We want, in fact, not so much a Father in Heaven as a grandfather in heaven—a senile benevolence who, as they say, 'liked to see young people enjoying themselves', and whose plan for the universe was simply that it might be truly said at the end of the day, 'a good time was had by all'. Not many people, I admit, would formulate a theology in precisely those terms: but a conception not very different lurks at the back of many minds.." Edited November 13, 2012 by Scott Lloyd 2
Freedom Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 God not giving us more than we can handle is nonsense. Many good people crack under the physical and mental strains they go through. A god that hands out trials and tribulations to test us, is a sarcastic and cruel god, playing with us, prodding, poking until we either turn and ask for help, or sink under the pressure. Those who have learned to play by his rules simply ask from the get-go and smirk when handed wealth and health and see it as just rewards for their being able to follow orders.There are no scriptures that say God will not give us trials that we cannot conquer, that is a statement of man. It is wishful thinking.So are you suggesting that nobody has ever died of cancer, suffered lasting injury from an acid attack or ever had to be institutionalized due to a mental illness? Have there never been slaves in the world? The trial we are to overcome is sin. Everything else is to give us experience or to show mercy.
Bill “Papa” Lee Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 I hear sometimes that God won't give us things, experiences that we can't handle. I don't know how that fits into times in our lives ot other people's lives when things become overwhelking. My non-Mormon g-grandma, according to family lore, "rusted out" and had dimentia. Her and many others it seems have some breaking point that is crossed. How do we know what comes from God and does he want us to be overwhelmed to the passing of the breaking point? like people take their own lives because they can't handle it-where does not giving us things we can't handle fit into that?There are things I have suffered and come though that I would rather die than go through again, I think God gives us the grace we need at any given time. If everyone gathered in a room to discuss their own problems, I think would leave with our own after hearing of the trials of others,
Scott Lloyd Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 Though adversity in life is not a temptation per se, there is often temptation associated with it.This is illustrated in the Book of Job. He was beset with much adversity, and his wife told him to "curse God and die." Instead, he testified:25 For I aknow that my bredeemer liveth, and that che shall dstand at the latter day upon the earth: 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this abody, yet in my bflesh shall I csee God:When beset with adversity, we are likely to face the same temptation, either to "curse God and die" or to remain faithful to Him and have faith and hope that He will eventually provide deliverance and that we, like Job, will be blessed more greatly in the end than we were to begin with. 1
Freedom Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 There are things I have suffered and come though that I would rather die than go through again, I think God gives us the grace we need at any given time. If everyone gathered in a room to discuss their own problems, I think would leave with our own after hearing of the trials of others,If all of our laundry were hung on a line, you would choose your's and I would choose mine. 1
cinepro Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) So are you suggesting that nobody has ever died of cancer, suffered lasting injury from an acid attack or ever had to be institutionalized due to a mental illness? Have there never been slaves in the world? The trial we are to overcome is sin. Everything else is to give us experience or to show mercy.Instead of saying "God won't give us temptations that we can't resist", we should just say "We can always choose to resist temptation", because that's what we really mean. God isn't even part of the equation.Ultimately, it all comes down to how we define "sin". If someone does something bad and they could have resisted it, we call it "sin". If they do something bad and they couldn't resist it (i.e. they are forced, such as rape), then it isn't a "sin". Since the ability to resist is part of the definition, it goes without saying that we can all "resist sin". But it's not because of what God is or isn't doing, it's because of how we define the term. Edited November 13, 2012 by cinepro
Scott Lloyd Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 Instead of saying "God won't give us temptations that we can't resist", we should just say "We can always choose to resist temptation", because that's what we really mean. God isn't even part of the equation.I get the sense that the scripture is worded as it is because of the propensity of so many people to try to rationalize their own wrongdoing through the self-delusion that they were incapable of choosing otherwise. The passage, as I recall, goes on to state -- very powerfully -- that God will provide a way to escape the temptation.
bcuzbcuz Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 The above remark brings to mind the following quotation from C. S. Lewis:"By the goodness of God we mean nowadays almost exclusively His lovingness; and in this we may be right. And by Love, in this context, most of us mean kindness—the desire to see others than the self happy; not happy in this way or in that, but just happy. What would really satisfy us would be a God who said of anything we happened to like doing, 'What does it matter so long as they are contented?' We want, in fact, not so much a Father in Heaven as a grandfather in heaven—a senile benevolence who, as they say, 'liked to see young people enjoying themselves', and whose plan for the universe was simply that it might be truly said at the end of the day, 'a good time was had by all'. Not many people, I admit, would formulate a theology in precisely those terms: but a conception not very different lurks at the back of many minds.."I must have expressed myself poorly. I am not advocating a preference for a world that is a leisurely stroll through a pretty garden. I attempted to counter the idea that God would not give us trials beyond our ability to cope. My words were meant to be quite contrary. People, good people, collapse under the burden of trials and tribulations on a daily basis. CS Lewis was of the opinion that we become stronger through these trials and that was God's meaning. I see people being broken by their trials. Is that also God's meaning?
bcuzbcuz Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 So are you suggesting that nobody has ever died of cancer, suffered lasting injury from an acid attack or ever had to be institutionalized due to a mental illness? Have there never been slaves in the world? The trial we are to overcome is sin. Everything else is to give us experience or to show mercy.I must learn to read my posts with new eyes. You and others are seeing things in my words that I had no intention of meaning. My point was that suffering, injury and sickness are all around us. I do not, however, belief that these tribulations are here to have us overcome temptation or sin. I do not see suffering of others as just an encyclopedia of learning experiences nor do I see suffering as opportunities for me or anyone else to show mercy. A god who causes suffering just so I can gather bonus points is ludicrous.
Freedom Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 I must have expressed myself poorly. I am not advocating a preference for a world that is a leisurely stroll through a pretty garden. I attempted to counter the idea that God would not give us trials beyond our ability to cope. My words were meant to be quite contrary. People, good people, collapse under the burden of trials and tribulations on a daily basis. CS Lewis was of the opinion that we become stronger through these trials and that was God's meaning. I see people being broken by their trials. Is that also God's meaning?I do not know of a passage of scripture that says God will not give us trials beyond our ability to cope.
bcuzbcuz Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 If all of our laundry were hung on a line, you would choose your's and I would choose mine.No, I wouldn't.
Freedom Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 Instead of saying "God won't give us temptations that we can't resist", we should just say "We can always choose to resist temptation", because that's what we really mean. God isn't even part of the equation.Ultimately, it all comes down to how we define "sin". If someone does something bad and they could have resisted it, we call it "sin". If they do something bad and they couldn't resist it (i.e. they are forced, such as rape), then it isn't a "sin". Since the ability to resist is part of the definition, it goes without saying that we can all "resist sin".But it's not because of what God is or isn't doing, it's because of how we define the term.or better yet we could word it "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it"I read this to mean that he will protect us from temptations that Satan may throw our way that we are not able to resist. I do not believe it is possible to do something bad by force. Rape is a very bad analogy because you are suggesting that if a women is raped she did do something bad but it is not a sin. I hope you did not mean this. Perhaps you meant something like if I am driving and my breaks fail do to a mechanical defect attributed to the manufacturer causing me to kill someone. Still, I did nothing wrong.
Mudcat Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 I must learn to read my posts with new eyes. You and others are seeing things in my words that I had no intention of meaning. My point was that suffering, injury and sickness are all around us. I do not, however, belief that these tribulations are here to have us overcome temptation or sin. I do not see suffering of others as just an encyclopedia of learning experiences nor do I see suffering as opportunities for me or anyone else to show mercy. A god who causes suffering just so I can gather bonus points is ludicrous.Hi bcuzbcuz,Reading the thread and I have a question. I think the difficulty in understanding your particular view, is that .. at least to me it seems like I am seeing your position sort of defined in the negative. More like I am understanding what you think God's relationship to human suffering isn't.. but not getting the best picture of what you think that relationship actually is exactly.Let me ask you. What do you think the relationship between human suffering and God is?Respectfully,Mudcat
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