Overwhelming Life Trials

[treeface]

I hear sometimes that God won't give us things, experiences that we can't handle. I don't know how that fits into times in our lives ot other people's lives when things become overwhelking. My non-Mormon g-grandma, according to family lore, "rusted out" and had dimentia. Her and many others it seems have some breaking point that is crossed. How do we know what comes from God and does he want us to be overwhelmed to the passing of the breaking point? like people take their own lives because they can't handle it-where does not giving us things we can't handle fit into that?

One of the central challenges in life is, developing the ability to choose our state of mind in the face of outward circumstances that would dictate a negative state of mind if unopposed. Nobody is expected to get a perfect score when measured by this yardstick. Not even Jesus... but, a failing in this area is not "sin".

Some people signed up for an introductory-level class for their earth life, and some people signed up for an advanced class. I'm not sure that we have enough information to reliably judge who is who. The book of Job is (among other things) a warning to those of us inclined to pass judgment on people who have more than their fair share of challenges and/or misfortune.

When circumstances are against us, the path of least resistance leads to darkness. But we can always choose again. For the most part we can't choose the circumstances that befall us, but I think we're supposed to, within the best of our ability at the time, try to turn towards the light anyway. Every breath we take is a chance to choose again, even if only in the tiniest of ways. And when it looks like we are making zero progress, maybe we're doing spiritual isometrics.

Edited November 15, 2012 by treeface

[Mudcat]

You're right, I do not have any focus, as you call it, on the journeys end. Poverty here on earth is not rewarded in any hereafter, there is no balancing of the budget, no tallying of the record. No one's keeping score. If injustices are not put right in this world then it just isn't done.

Bold mine. You seem to be.

Absent a higher standard. What I see as a critical dilemma is even appealing to a notion that justice/injustice exists in any other place outside our own minds.

One persons rulebook for such things is just as good as the next fellows because no one is actually playing the same game, because there is no game.

If their is no higher standard or cause, then it's sad that in deterministic sequence of events a race has arisen that has reached the conclusion of it's own accord that life really doesn't seem to be fair, when there isn't really any such thing as fair, just life.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Mudcat

[CV75]

On my 45 minute drive back into town that night my thoughts were riveted into what I had just experienced. I think back on it many times. There is no glory in suffering. There are no lessons learned. I'm sorry, I just don't see any faith and hope there.

They learned to chuckle at "that look" and that excuse. They learned to share whatever they had and look to the welfare of others--that goes beyond faith and hope and into the territory of charity. Something can be learned from that; perhaps not only by those who have already learned it.

[CV75]

Poverty here on earth is not rewarded in any hereafter ...If injustices are not put right in this world then it just isn't done.

No mortal adversity of any kind is rewarded, only removed and the deleterious effects healed. In the example of poverty, no one will be without his material needs being met—and he will be immortal. What is “rewarded” is found in Luke 6:35 and elsewhere that speaks to faith in God, especially under conditions of persecution.

[Duncan]

I agree with you on many points. But I think phrasing it in 'relative poverty' is not entirely true. Poverty has many layers of degradation. Those who have lost hope and given up also find themselves losing in other areas. Hygiene suffers and so does health. Holes in the roof don't get fixed, much of life is just 'make do'. Education loses its purpose. Family as a group suffers.

I've often meant to ask about your Canadian flag. The story I told is from a native reserve in northern B.C. All the reserves I worked on, with one exception, the Haida on the Queen Charlottes, lived in abject poverty. What money that did come in was often ripped off by unscrupulous merchants.

that story could easily be replicated on any of a number of native reserves in Canada, a lot of abject poverty among many other problems to deal with, just horror shows with a lot of things

[bcuzbcuz]

that story could easily be replicated on any of a number of native reserves in Canada, a lot of abject poverty among many other problems to deal with, just horror shows with a lot of things

The reserve in Duncan B.C. Had many positive features, both their Qu'wutsun' cultural centre (really beautiful) and their Powwows (entertaining, colourful and lively). But I never worked there so I don't know about other factors.

[pogi]

I originally responded to the idea that stated " god will not give us a greater tribulations than we can manage". I do not believe that. It somehow implies that we could manage any tribulation if only we seek god's help, in the right way, or at the right time or under the proper circumstances. It implies that we are left to our Torments until we figure out the rules of the "game".

I know and have known good people who pleaded with god to remove the torment from themselves or from a loved one and nothing has happened. Suffering is most often ignored by god.

What do you mean by "manage"? God never promised that there would not be suffering, even if we are completely obedient. The best example of this is Christ. He was perfect, and yet he suffered greater than all of us. Christ suffered to the point of death. Did he "manage"?

Even Christ pleaded "remove this cup from me" and yet he suffered above all. Does that mean that God ignored him?

Edited November 16, 2012 by pogi

[Freedom]

I agree with you on many points. But I think phrasing it in 'relative poverty' is not entirely true. Poverty has many layers of degradation. Those who have lost hope and given up also find themselves losing in other areas. Hygiene suffers and so does health. Holes in the roof don't get fixed, much of life is just 'make do'. Education loses its purpose. Family as a group suffers.

I've often meant to ask about your Canadian flag. The story I told is from a native reserve in northern B.C. All the reserves I worked on, with one exception, the Haida on the Queen Charlottes, lived in abject poverty. What money that did come in was often ripped off by unscrupulous merchants.

The natives are impoverished because they squander the money that is handed to them. The greatest sin the Canadian government has perpetrated against the natives of our country is to give them free handouts. The natives that have risen above the poverty left the reserves and rejected their claims. Some are coming around, but the theft is not from outside merchants. The theft is from the chiefs and band leaders. There is no reason for anybody to be poor in Canada, we are one of the wealthiest countries in the world and we have a very generous welfare program. The poverty occurs because they take their money and spend it on alcohol and drugs. It is a great tragedy.

Compare the financial condition of the natives who have been giving land, free houses, a greatly reduced post secondary education cost, and free medical; and contrast that with the Japanese who had their land and livelihood taken away, or with the chinese who had to pay $3000/head to come here and were deprived of any of the benefits that their taxes paid for. You will find the Chinese and Japanese to have generated great wealth, but the natives have nothing to show for it.

[bcuzbcuz]

The natives are impoverished because they squander the money that is handed to them. The greatest sin the Canadian government has perpetrated against the natives of our country is to give them free handouts. The natives that have risen above the poverty left the reserves and rejected their claims. Some are coming around, but the theft is not from outside merchants. The theft is from the chiefs and band leaders. There is no reason for anybody to be poor in Canada, we are one of the wealthiest countries in the world and we have a very generous welfare program. The poverty occurs because they take their money and spend it on alcohol and drugs. It is a great tragedy.

Compare the financial condition of the natives who have been giving land, free houses, a greatly reduced post secondary education cost, and free medical; and contrast that with the Japanese who had their land and livelihood taken away, or with the chinese who had to pay $3000/head to come here and were deprived of any of the benefits that their taxes paid for. You will fiond the Chinese and Japanese to have generated great wealth, but the natives have nothing to show for it.

Having lived, worked and taught on a number of reserves I think your response over simplifies the real problems and lacks nuance. Simply comparing one group to another proves nothing and contains only sweeping generalizations that because of their ambiguity, miss the real question. Have you ever read any books about residential schools? Or better yet, talked with any elders of their experiences in residential schools?

I totally agree that some chiefs and band councils have squandered and embezzled funds and that drugs and alcohol have virtually destroyed one generation, but the problem wasn't the "handouts", as you call them. Canada has for more than a century treated the native population as second class citizens. Native peoples only got the right to vote in 1960, is one example. Status cards were, and are, Canada's system of apartheid, with no better record of administration than apartheid in South Africa.

"The 60's Scoop" as it was called, where thousands of children were taken from their families and placed in foster care and up for adoption, known as 'the Stolen Generation' can be read about from many sources. This 'scoop' was practiced in New Zealand, Australia and even by the Mormon Church and had similar drastic outcomes.

Native people's across Canada have for decades tried to get restitution and justice from the Catholic Church and all the other church organizations that ran residential schools. These schools systematically abused, misused, humiliated children from almost every tribe. I have listened to heart rending stories of sexual and physical abuse from both elders and parents on all the reserves I worked on.

Dysfunctional it's is not merely a product of handouts. It goes much deeper than that.

I can provide reading lists if you're interested.

[Freedom]

Having lived, worked and taught on a number of reserves I think your response over simplifies the real problems and lacks nuance.

What was done to the natives, as horrible as it was, does not compare to what was done to the Chinese and Japanese. The current generation is far removed from the troubles of the past and cannot blame their poor choices on the experiences their parents suffered in childhood. It reminds me of what Bill Cosby has said of african americans. Also, what happened to the natives does not compare to many cultural groups in other places such as Iraq. Turkey or China. It does not compare to what happened to my ancestors who lived in Irland. This is, as I have said before, the human condition.

[bcuzbcuz]

Merely pointing at similar conditions does not solve the problem. The Irish potato famine was not due to a shortage of food, check it out. The British gentry knew exactly what they were doing. Time does not heal all wounds. Read my posts on the residential schools. Simply because several Cultural groups were mistreated doesn't lesson the overall effect. Bill Cosby knows about his situation, not every situation. Admit it, the colonial rule of native people's was a total failure.

[Freedom]

Merely pointing at similar conditions does not solve the problem. The Irish potato famine was not due to a shortage of food, check it out. The British gentry knew exactly what they were doing. Time does not heal all wounds. Read my posts on the residential schools. Simply because several Cultural groups were mistreated doesn't lesson the overall effect. Bill Cosby knows about his situation, not every situation. Admit it, the colonial rule of native people's was a total failure.

It was, and the best solution is to slowly cut off the benefits sign over the lands, pay them out a cash settlement and let them survive like everyone else. The problem is being perpetuated because so many of them have no urgency to turn their lives around. The government will always be there to pay their way. Their current poverty has nothing to do with a lack of resources, it has to do with personal choices. Their difficulties are not overwhelming. I see natives leave the reserve all the time and live productive lives. And the sins against the natives is a .05 on the Richter scale of human oppression.

The treatment of the Chinese was a total failure as well, yet they are among the wealthiest in our country. The fact is, the vast majority of humans live in far worse conditions than the most miserable of native reserves, and these people have no control. The natives cause the poverty on the reserves, despite enormous resources provided by the government to try to help them.

[Nathair/|\]

Merely pointing at similar conditions does not solve the problem. The Irish potato famine was not due to a shortage of food, check it out. The British gentry knew exactly what they were doing. Time does not heal all wounds. Read my posts on the residential schools. Simply because several Cultural groups were mistreated doesn't lesson the overall effect. Bill Cosby knows about his situation, not every situation. Admit it, the colonial rule of native people's was a total failure.