Bikeemikey Posted November 8, 2012 Posted November 8, 2012 I personally hope that man will live a long time and perhaps get our space exploration on, go find kolob in a few hundred years and ask Jesus why he was late coming back.
bcuzbcuz Posted November 8, 2012 Author Posted November 8, 2012 That is the change we should want to see, rather than wanting to see a society where someone else comes in and just takes from the rich to give to the poor. Robin Hood may have had good intentions, but it was still wrong for him to steal.What we should really want to see is all of the rich choosing to give to the poor, Fat chance that the rich will see benefits in giving to the poor. If the church was convinced that people would give out of the goodness of their hearts then there would be no need for tithing. And without the blade held over their heads...no tithing; no recommend...even the promise of rewards in heaven would not be enough.I personally believe that greed and self interest are much more predominant than the posts here so far would seem to indicate. But then, I've chosen to live in countries where social security is not merely a phrase but a social practice.
Ahab Posted November 8, 2012 Posted November 8, 2012 Fat chance that the rich will see benefits in giving to the poor.It could be and has already been taught so that even a child can understand, if he really wants to. If you had a dozen cookies and 11 other people didn't have any, what would you do? ... before you gave them the recipe and ingredients to make more?If the church was convinced that people would give out of the goodness of their hearts then there would be no need for tithing. And without the blade held over their heads...no tithing; no recommend...even the promise of rewards in heaven would not be enough.We all do what we do to get something good out of it, otherwise we shouldn't do it. Why do it if it doesn't do any good?I personally believe that greed and self interest are much more predominant than the posts here so far would seem to indicate.To see how bad it is all we need to do is look at the state of this world. I think words alone can't describe how bad it actually is.But then, I've chosen to live in countries where social security is not merely a phrase but a social practice.I'm sure even the best countries have their bad apples, just as there are bad apples even in the kingdom of God.
Bikeemikey Posted November 8, 2012 Posted November 8, 2012 Fat chance that the rich will see benefits in giving to the poor. If the church was convinced that people would give out of the goodness of their hearts then there would be no need for tithing. And without the blade held over their heads...no tithing; no recommend...even the promise of rewards in heaven would not be enough.I personally believe that greed and self interest are much more predominant than the posts here so far would seem to indicate.But then, I've chosen to live in countries where social security is not merely a phrase but a social practice.The world is getting better. The number of people living in poverty is reducing, the global level of education is improving, the global respect for women is also on the rise. Things are bad, however, good things take time.Is it upsetting it is not better yet, sure. But if the trend of the last 100 years are any indicator then things will be a lot better.Two Hundred years ago the US was an insignificant country full of poor immigrants. Now it is a country of 300 million very wealthy people.
Calm Posted November 9, 2012 Posted November 9, 2012 Fat chance that the rich will see benefits in giving to the poor. If the church was convinced that people would give out of the goodness of their hearts then there would be no need for tithing. And without the blade held over their heads...no tithing; no recommend...even the promise of rewards in heaven would not be enough..How do you reconcile fast offerings and other such nontithing donations?
bcuzbcuz Posted November 9, 2012 Author Posted November 9, 2012 How do you reconcile fast offerings and other such nontithing donations?I don't. I have absolutely no idea what such donations amount to, whether they are a significant amount or not.
bcuzbcuz Posted November 9, 2012 Author Posted November 9, 2012 Now it is a country of 300 million very wealthy people.Yes and about 80 million who live below the poverty line. Or 47% according to Romney.
Bikeemikey Posted November 9, 2012 Posted November 9, 2012 Yes and about 80 million who live below the poverty line. Or 47% according to Romney.Yes, The US has poverty, however the US poverty line is not the international poverty metric of below $1 a day. (I think over the past few years this may have gone up to $2 a day. The us poverty line is a domestic metric for determining who is eligible for certain tax benefits and social welfare programs. Not a poverty line that means much when compared to global poverty.
theplains Posted November 9, 2012 Posted November 9, 2012 If such a disaster is prolonged more than a couple months,feeding your neighbor will be the least of your problems. Roving bands will take what there is and burn out anyone trying to stop them,a la Bosnia.There may be strength in numbers and community but starvation brings out the animal in many people. IF YOU LIVE IN A BIG CITY , MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON YOUR SOUL!I totally agree with that assessment. They even have a series on TV about something like this. It's called Revolution ...about when the world loses all electricity. You'll have to strike a godly balance between charity and protecting yourfamily.Regards,Jim
Pepcigirl Posted November 9, 2012 Posted November 9, 2012 (edited) Unfortunately, the worst case scenario would be that church members will be targeted by who ever is "in charge" because they know the LDS have a year's (more or less) supply of food, and those "in charge" would confiscate all food storage as it would be classed as "hoarding" because it would be illegal to hoard food. Edited November 9, 2012 by Pepcigirl 1
thesometimesaint Posted November 9, 2012 Posted November 9, 2012 Yes, The US has poverty, however the US poverty line is not the international poverty metric of below $1 a day. (I think over the past few years this may have gone up to $2 a day. The us poverty line is a domestic metric for determining who is eligible for certain tax benefits and social welfare programs. Not a poverty line that means much when compared to global poverty.True, but a bit misleading. Universally understood is that poverty is the lack of means to take care of ones self and family in providing basic needs. So the American(Though he may have more actual money), living in poverty on an air grate of a big city is poorer than some one of the Masai tribe of southern Africa.
bcuzbcuz Posted November 9, 2012 Author Posted November 9, 2012 Yes, The US has poverty, however the US poverty line is not the international poverty metric of below $1 a day. (I think over the past few years this may have gone up to $2 a day. The us poverty line is a domestic metric for determining who is eligible for certain tax benefits and social welfare programs. Not a poverty line that means much when compared to global poverty.Going hungry in America is no different to going hungry in Africa. That one family has hunger pangs for lack of a hamburger and the other has hunger pangs for lack of a loaf of bread is not really the issue. America, the richest nation in the world, has multitudes of people without proper food, nutrition and schooling. And yes, it has the richest people in the world. Do you not see the discrepancy?
Bikeemikey Posted November 9, 2012 Posted November 9, 2012 Going hungry in America is no different to going hungry in Africa. That one family has hunger pangs for lack of a hamburger and the other has hunger pangs for lack of a loaf of bread is not really the issue. America, the richest nation in the world, has multitudes of people without proper food, nutrition and schooling. And yes, it has the richest people in the world. Do you not see the discrepancy?I dont dispute that... I just dispute that the US poverty line measurement is also a measurement for if you are going hungry.
Tacenda Posted November 9, 2012 Posted November 9, 2012 We can teach people that they should be charitable, and how to be charitable, and we can even teach them the consequences of not being charitable by helping them to see the bigger picture, but we can't actually force people to be charitable. That is the change we should want to see, rather than wanting to see a society where someone else comes in and just takes from the rich to give to the poor. Robin Hood may have had good intentions, but it was still wrong for him to steal.What we should really want to see is all of the rich choosing to give to the poor, charitably, to make things better for the collective society. And the rich should want to give enough to make a big enough difference, where the poor aren't poor anymore and the rich aren't rich, either, with everyone being what we would consider the middle class. That's how a Zion type society is created, where everyone has all things in common... meanign they all have the same things... and there are no rich as well as no poor.It needs to be something each person chooses to do because they see the good in being that way, though, when both giving and receiving charity. As it is now some people just have too much pride to see charity as ever being a good thing, as far as receiving any, although they can be comfortable when giving it to others if and when they want to. Can you imagine a world where charity would be the guiding principle? Sounds like heaven to me.This is reflected recently on FB among several who were pro Romney. So many were replete with saying that all the people that voted Obama just want hand outs. But there are people who truly wouldn't survive without food stamps. My daughter had to go on them one time in her lifetime, her husband lost his job. When my daughter found work, the food stamps stopped even though her job was a night job cleaning office buildings. We helped by paying their bills etc. but we were grateful she was able to buy food with that help. I kept reminding her how fortunate she and her family were to have a government there to pick up some pieces. She and her family are on their feet now. Her husband is back to work. I'm sure the taxes we pay the government could eek out some help for the poor and needy this way vs. paying for dumb programs that aren't necessary.
thesometimesaint Posted November 9, 2012 Posted November 9, 2012 Tacenda:http://www.foodnetwork.com/videos/hunger-hits-home/96181.html
The Nehor Posted November 10, 2012 Posted November 10, 2012 Better yet is to live as one.That was not an option.
The Nehor Posted November 10, 2012 Posted November 10, 2012 I provide the following story, which I believe may be an alternative consideration to the "give said the little stream approach" that so many feel the Saints are obligated to sustain. Please keep in mind this is one aspect of what we need to consider. It is not a "RULE" of behavior but contains a principle for application in the appropriate circumstance according to the guidance of the spirit.Two quotes to set the stage:This sets one aspect of the standard in that the Lord through his prophet provides the warning and solution to avoiding his condemnation. In this case, this is excerpted from the Zions Camp experience and not too far into the journey the murmuring and complaining of the brethren has reached the heavens and the Lord warns them that if they do not repent they will be scourged and some will die. The second quote is a couple of weeks later when the prophesied scourge actually manifests itself as the brethren did not repent.There are more details that go with the story but the most important observation is what Joseph explains what he has learned about trying to interfere with the decrees of Jehovah. If we couple this principle with the "If you have been warned" principle, it certainly seems possible that it will not be as simple as give to whomever you want. Note that Joseph suffered the affliction of the scourged. He contracted the very disease he sought to cure. I have wondered if this means that if a people are decreed to suffer the ravages of failing to prepare as they were warned with starvation that if we sought to interfere with God's degree that we would simply find our food stores overwhelmed and we would suffer the same affliction.All of this considered my thoughts are that those that have been warned are the least likely candidates to access my food storage. What that translates into is those members of the church that had means and failed to prepare would be possibly under the decree of the damned. All of my non-member neighbors would be more eligible for claim on my assistance than those members that ignored the commands of the Lord. As a father, I feel obligated and desirous of providing for all of my relatives and children that can make it to my door. I have every expectation of seeking out the needy, sick, afflicted, widows, fatherless and so on to care for their needs as well. Few people realize what a blessing the needy are, for in them and the saints response to their need, is Zion defined. Since the final expectation is the reestablishment of Zion, they are one of the critical elements that define a Zion people, ie if there are no poor amongst the people because they have resisted their selfishness and have not failed to care for the needy then they are truly a Zion people.I also believe that when we make the correct decisions we will have many examples of the cruse of oil and flour that do not fail for the Lord blessing of his obedient saints. However, I wonder if trying to preserve the condemned that wish to remain in their rebellion places us outside of being one of those obedient saints. I also expect that wherever possible the principles of working to the benefit of the whole and eschewing the dole will be observed in my efforts and my expectations of those who are gathered under whatever umbrella I am able to provide or under which I may reside with others.Pres Benson, once observed that having our preparations would someday be as important as getting on the ark in the days of Noah. In the theme of this post, we can be sure that Noah had more than eight members in his family. Surely as they looked down from the vessel which was their protection and was their solution to the warnings of God, they observed many family and friends pounding on the doors after the ark had been sealed. I don't have all of the answers as to who merits assistance. I believe Elder Packer when he states that those that do not live by the spirit of revelation will perish and I wonder that even in the choices we make as to who warrants relief from the scourge of the Lord we will have to rely on revelation to guide us that we may not be found to merit inclusion in the condemnation of those who would not listen.I would encourae you to reread the old welfare conference sessions. Their counsel does not square with your suggestins here. If God wants people to starve as a just punishment He does not need my help. I am wary of anyone talking about righteous judgment in regards to others unless they have priesthood keys. We are to judge righteously but we are virtually never called to judge whether someone should live or die. As horrifying as it might be I would rather die having given up all my food to help others rather then hord it with a gun driving back those desperate enough to try to take it. One allows us to die together and me to do all I can. The other hardens both our souls.I am reminded of the dream Joseph shared. In it apostates he knew threw him into a pit and then were attacked and wounded and pleaded for help. Joseph still wanted to help. He did not only because he could not. 1
Deborah Posted November 10, 2012 Posted November 10, 2012 I don't think we have to imagine the end of the world. Just look at disasters like Sandy or Katrina and see how people act. Sandy seems to have more people helping themselves and their neighbors. I can't imagine anyone who has any kind of moral compass or compassion watching as others suffer without trying to help.
Calm Posted November 10, 2012 Posted November 10, 2012 (edited) I was just reading an article on how those who had organised Occupy Wall Street had been putting their organization to go use through charitable efforts and are now helping big time with the more devastated parts. It was very impressive.http://abcnews.go.com/US/t/story/occupy-sandy-onetime-protesters-find-17685552 Edited November 10, 2012 by calmoriah
blackstrap Posted November 10, 2012 Posted November 10, 2012 As has been mentioned in this thread,the story of Joseph in Egypt concerns me.7 years of prosperity were prophesied and the 'government' set up storage bins for the surplus. People probably had their own storage but even a 2 years supply proved insufficient. Eventually the people went to the storage bins for grain. The government sold it to them and after the people had nothing left to barter with they had to give up their private land so that there was a huge land transfer from the people to the government.After the famine the pharoah controlled most of the means of food production,essentially putting Egypt into a feudal state.Neat trick! Joseph apparently supervised the whole thing. Maybe it loses something in the translation.
bcuzbcuz Posted November 10, 2012 Author Posted November 10, 2012 As has been mentioned in this thread,the story of Joseph in Egypt concerns me.7 years of prosperity were prophesied and the 'government' set up storage bins for the surplus. People probably had their own storage but even a 2 years supply proved insufficient. Eventually the people went to the storage bins for grain. The government sold it to them and after the people had nothing left to barter with they had to give up their private land so that there was a huge land transfer from the people to the government.After the famine the pharoah controlled most of the means of food production,essentially putting Egypt into a feudal state.Neat trick! Joseph apparently supervised the whole thing. Maybe it loses something in the translation.Are you saying that the end of times is merely a government land grab?
Bikeemikey Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) As has been mentioned in this thread,the story of Joseph in Egypt concerns me.7 years of prosperity were prophesied and the 'government' set up storage bins for the surplus. People probably had their own storage but even a 2 years supply proved insufficient. Eventually the people went to the storage bins for grain. The government sold it to them and after the people had nothing left to barter with they had to give up their private land so that there was a huge land transfer from the people to the government.After the famine the pharoah controlled most of the means of food production,essentially putting Egypt into a feudal state.Neat trick! Joseph apparently supervised the whole thing. Maybe it loses something in the translation.Should the govt. have given it to them for free? Or should the govt have not built up surplus in the first place? Edited November 13, 2012 by Bikeemikey
bcuzbcuz Posted November 13, 2012 Author Posted November 13, 2012 True, but a bit misleading. Universally understood is that poverty is the lack of means to take care of ones self and family in providing basic needs. So the American(Though he may have more actual money), living in poverty on an air grate of a big city is poorer than some one of the Masai tribe of southern Africa.I think my line of thinking goes pretty much along side yours. But I do have a question. If the conclusions talked about here on this OP are that people should share of their bounty in the times of stress, why is such thinking not prevalent before the big crunch comes? The world, to not talk about the US, has millions of starving, maybe even billions of people without proper food clothing or shelter. Certainly medicines are lacking throughout all the poor countries. I worked for more than 10 years on Native reserves and with native peoples not on reserves and I know that poverty, poor dental care, poor medical care, poor education and extremely poor infrastructure is prevalent as though the reserves were third nation countries. Where is the sharing in these times of relative wealth?
Hamba Tuhan Posted November 13, 2012 Posted November 13, 2012 I have learnt from several personal experiences the past few years that I can literally give away all the food I have for myself, and I will be fine. We never have to regret keeping our covenants. God is a keeper of His promises.
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