Imagine The End Of The World

[ERayR]

So you're saying the name "calmoriah" is now on some terrorist watch list because the people who make the lists somehow know that calmoriah is Mormon? Who tells those people that calmoriah is Mormon, or who else is a Mormon.

Here I am, and I'm Mormon too!

Are you going to put me on the list, ERayR? Can you show me the list with me on it?

And btw, most other people store food, too. We have these things called panties (edit: and pantries) and cubbards where food can be put.

It's amazing!

Nope I'm not putting anybody on any list but I am suggesting you take a reading for comprehension course.

Edited November 17, 2012 by ERayR

[ERMD]

You may find a years supply was a lot more than you thought when the zombie apocalypse comes.

Fortunately, I'm REALLY good at head shots.

[bcuzbcuz]

Fortunately, I'm REALLY good at head shots.

Strange thing to boast about.

[thesometimesaint]

Zombies are hard to kill. Every one else gets three rounds, three buttons down.

[Calm]

Strange thing to boast about.

Not if you are talking about zombies.

Essential part of one's preparation: http://www.amazon.com/Zombie-Survival-Guide-Complete-Protection/dp/1400049628

Edited November 18, 2012 by calmoriah

[slamarwi]

My question to you is: Do you share your food and resources? Or do you hunker down and prepare to fend off all comers? Have your former neighbors become your new enemies? Are you ready to kill to protect your family?

What price salvation?

[slamarwi]

Here are my direct answers to the questions:

I am hopeful that like-minded people will band together and share food and resources.

And Yes, "hunkering down", to some extent will likely be necessary, but it will be interesting to see who your real friends are. Traumatic situations show character. Some neighbors may become enemies and vice versa.

Am I prepared to kill to protect my family? I already am prepared and I try to protect them everyday I'm not waiting for EOTW trauma to decide. Note: I am also wiling to love to protect my family.

As to the final question of "what price salvation" I am not sure what that has to do with the topic. Salvation has been already been paid for.

[bcuzbcuz]

As to the final question of "what price salvation" I am not sure what that has to do with the topic. Salvation has been already been paid for.

No, actually I think you have answered that question. To save your family you state you are ready to kill other humans.

[ERayR]

No, actually I think you have answered that question. To save your family you state you are ready to kill other humans.

Only to the extent they are ready to kill me or mine. Did it ever occur to you that if non of the saints of God were willing to kill to protect then there soon would be no saints, only those who had killed them.

Edited November 18, 2012 by ERayR

[Stargazer]

Translation: It's a rumor, calmoriah. You weren't supposed to take it seriously.

Sometimes it can be hard to tell when someone is trying to be funny.

This is not just a rumor. A friend of mine told me that he used to hang out with folks who made sure to be aware of who the Mormons were in their community, for the sole purpose of knowing who they could rip food off of -- and not asking nicely pretty please, either. My friend, who is now a member of the church, said that they were a pretty serious bunch of people. And where there is one bunch, there are bound to be others.

All this being said, I would definitely be sharing with my neighbors in the event of the dire situation posited by the OP.

The thing I worry about is not those who are merely in need of food, but those who have become bandits without compunction. My wife and her sisters saw some of this at the end of WW2 in East Prussia after the Red Army went through. With no order and no law for a few months there were roving bands of thieves and murderers taking what they wanted from whomever they wanted -- with little regard for lives. And the fact that most people had nothing and couldn't share if they wanted to did not matter. One of my wife's sisters witnesses just such a band murder a disabled woman for no reason at all -- other than that they could.

Banding together with your neighbors for protection may in many cases be the salvation of all. With your food storage the glue to hold the community together.

[Stargazer]

No, actually I think you have answered that question. To save your family you state you are ready to kill other humans.

Is this an immoral thing? In your view?

To permit others to murder is, in itself, to agree to murder. That, in my view, is immoral.

[Calm]

This is not just a rumor. A friend of mine told me that he used to hang out with folks who made sure to be aware of who the Mormons were in their community, for the sole purpose of knowing who they could rip food off of -- and not asking nicely pretty please, either. My friend, who is now a member of the church, said that they were a pretty serious bunch of people. And where there is one bunch, there are bound to be others.

Even if so, unlikely to be the government putting them on the terrorist watch list.

This was the original question that I was responding to with my own question:

Nathair, on 15 November 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

I keep hearing rumors lately that storing food and doing other things to be self-sufficient will get you on a terrorist watch list. Is there any truth to that and if so, how should we who have a religious obligation to do these things respond?

Edited November 19, 2012 by calmoriah

[Stargazer]

Even if so, unlikely to be the government putting them on the terrorist watch list.

This was the original question that I was responding to with my own question:

Nathair, on 15 November 2012 - 06:25 PM, said:

I keep hearing rumors lately that storing food and doing other things to be self-sufficient will get you on a terrorist watch list. Is there any truth to that and if so, how should we who have a religious obligation to do these things respond?

Well, oops. Too bad I didn't read far enough back in the chain! Mea culpa.

This thing about food storage and terrorist watch list is clearly fiction.

[Calm]

Well, oops. Too bad I didn't read far enough back in the chain! Mea culpa.

[bcuzbcuz]

Only to the extent they are ready to kill me or mine. Did it ever occur to you that if non of the saints of God were willing to kill to protect then there soon would be no saints, only those who had killed them.

I don't disagree with your math. I disagree with the killing. I can find no saving grace in taking someone else's life.

[Calm]

I don't disagree with your math. I disagree with the killing. I can find no saving grace in taking someone else's life.

Would you stand by and let another kill someone else without doing anything? Serious question, not rhetorical.

[bcuzbcuz]

Is this an immoral thing? In your view?

To permit others to murder is, in itself, to agree to murder. That, in my view, is immoral.

Yes, I do think killing someone else is an immoral act. And I don't feel any compunction to go around killing other murderers. I find your statement, "to permit others to murder is to agree to murder." a strangely circular argument. Unfortunately, in the world of today, many nations turn a blind eye to atrocities of murder, rape and pillaging in many of the countries of the world. Right now in Syria and the Gaza strip. I actively work for changes there but I stop well short of agreeing to kill or supplying means to kill.

[Nathair/|\]

If someone is about to harm someone I know to be innocent or love or whom I have a duty to protect and there is only one way to stop them, well let's just say I'll weep over the bodies of the aggressors as I clean the blood off my sword.

[bcuzbcuz]

Would you stand by and let another kill someone else without doing anything? Serious question, not rhetorical.

I once fought a man to the ground who tried to hold up a store with a knife, but saw no reason to harm him, only disarm him.

I applied, many years ago, for a police position as a youth worker, but during the training we had to drill in disarming and/or shooting a dangerous criminal, at which point I dropped out of the training. In response to the direct question, "could I shoot a dangerous person?" I had to answer, no.

I refused the draft in 1969 to be sent to Viet Nam. I neither wanted to kill or be killed.

I would hope, should the situation ever arise, that I would have the conviction of my word to stand between a threat and block any threat without applying equal force back.

I own hunting rifles but would never, ever use them against another human being, regardless of the situation.

How would you handle such a scenario?

Edited November 19, 2012 by bcuzbcuz

[thesometimesaint]

Three rounds, three buttons down. Just make sure it is justifiable.

[Mudcat]

My question to you is: Do you share your food and resources? Or do you hunker down and prepare to fend off all comers? Have your former neighbors become your new enemies? Are you ready to kill to protect your family?

What price salvation?

The answer to a lot of these questions is really situation dependent.

In general if I believe that I have enough aside to see my family through a difficult time and no more than that. Then I don't plan on sacraficing my families needs over the needs of neighbors or strangers. Yes I would kill to protect my family and do so without hesitation.

If I foresee that I will likely have some surplus, then I might barter with the rest. But this would likely be intercommunity trading if it occured.

It's a harsh policy, but I wouldn't plan on giving life sustaining supplies to people that have no way of sustaining themselves beyond what they have been given by me. If that is all they can accomplish, then you are only prolonging the inevitible. Show me a man that tosses out his scraps and I'll show you a man who is taking in strays.

That said, I wouldn't turn the woman who wanted assistance away entirely. I live in the rural South and we are fortunate to have temperate winters for the most part. If she was willing to be attentive, in less than 30 minutes maybe an hour at most, I could teach some basic foraging skills. Dandelion green, nettles, wild onions and cattails all provide nutriotion, vitamins, minerals and can be found very late and early in these parts. Acorns among other wild nuts are abundant in our area and provide protien and fats. Only 8 ounces of acorns provide enough caloric intake to keep a person above starvation threshold of 1200 calories. It doesn't take long to teach a person how to recognize those things.

Acorns and dandelion greens aren't the best tasting fair... but hungry folks aren't quite as particular about taste.

Teaching a person how to filter basic turbity from freshwater sources and how to purify it by heat isn't a time consuming task and in a crisis, other than air, water deprevation is the quickest killer.

On wild game, I suppose I would be willing to part with a snare and demonstrate how to manufacture more from a number things that she might have or could find and where and how to set them. I would give some instruction on fishing, trot lines that sort of thing. If she were receptive, she would have recieved more than a days worth of food in that lesson.

Survival in a crisis situation isn't just about what you have. More importantly, it's about what you know. The most important thing to pack for a crisis situation is what is between your ears.

Most importantly, I would share the Gospel of Jesus Christ as I understand it. Temporal survival is meaningless compared to eternal survival.

All that said, if she seemed to be attentive and affable, I would likely extend an invitation for her and her children to come by after they have landed their first animal and teach them how to dress it and cook it with the caveat that I will provide in equal portion of something to go with it of my own for the shared meat.

Who knows this might provide an opportunity to further train her and her family to survive better here and to them more about Christ.

Edited November 19, 2012 by Mudcat

[thesometimesaint]

Mudcat:

A 50 cent pack of mixed lettuces is easier to teach than teaching foraging. Eating Acorns without proper preparation is not a good idea. Very concentrated tannins. Boil and rinse at least three times. Then treat them like a starch. Wild greens are good if picked young. Just be careful to avoid any that come from yards as they may have been treated with pesticides.

Hunting even by trap takes a high degree of skill and a thorough knowledge of the area you want to hunt in. Plus unless you're hunting things smaller than a large rabbit. Few know how to properly field dress and properly preserve the meat that is caught.

[bcuzbcuz]

Mudcat:

A 50 cent pack of mixed lettuces is easier to teach than teaching foraging. Eating Acorns without proper preparation is not a good idea. Very concentrated tannins. Boil and rinse at least three times. Then treat them like a starch. Wild greens are good if picked young. Just be careful to avoid any that come from yards as they may have been treated with pesticides.

Hunting even by trap takes a high degree of skill and a thorough knowledge of the area you want to hunt in. Plus unless you're hunting things smaller than a large rabbit. Few know how to properly field dress and properly preserve the meat that is caught.

When the end of the world comes we all better hope the internet is still working. lol

[Thunderfire]

My question to you is: Do you share your food and resources? Or do you hunker down and prepare to fend off all comers? Have your former neighbors become your new enemies? Are you ready to kill to protect your family?

What price salvation?

Another paradigm of thought I was introduced to is this: God's hand will be on his righteous. They will plant and reap harvests beyond compare. If he fed Israel every day in the wilderness for 40 years, he will do it again for the righteous sake. There will be no want for food or water because God knows we need these things and will provide in astounishing ways. But then the clincher, this will happen in those areas of refuge where God has gathered his people. Outside of these areas will be all of the most terrible and frightful things we can fathom.

[Mudcat]

Mudcat:

A 50 cent pack of mixed lettuces is easier to teach than teaching foraging.

Given the scenario, you would be looking at 2 months or better before you are getting full heads of lettuce. Given their caloric value, a person would need to consume 12 heads a day, if they were big and more if they were smaller. That's at least 48 heads of lettuce a day to feed the mother and her three kiddos.

I am not saying growing lettuce isn't easier to teach.. just doesn't seem practical for people with immediate hunger issues.

Eating Acorns without proper preparation is not a good idea. Very concentrated tannins. Boil and rinse at least three times. Then treat them like a starch. Wild greens are good if picked young. Just be careful to avoid any that come from yards as they may have been treated with pesticides.

Thanks for the tips. Acorns were just an illustration as to the caloric value of wild nuts. In general we have white oaks and pin oaks in prevalence here. White oaks aren't so bad at any point but pin oaks aren't very palatable until late winter. Rain and snow have a natural blanching effect. I wasn't planning on a whole exposition on the topic.. just getting the general idea across. I didn't even touch on the viability of eating insects and stuff.

Hunting even by trap takes a high degree of skill and a thorough knowledge of the area you want to hunt in. Plus unless you're hunting things smaller than a large rabbit. Few know how to properly field dress and properly preserve the meat that is caught.

I would think a hungry family wouldn't be so concerned with storage given that they would consume what was caught. Field dressing four legged critters isn't rocket science, once you've seen it done on one animal the general principles are applicable to larger and smaller species. As to snaring animals, and where to look for good places to snare, it isn't all that complicated. Game runs are aberrations from untracked landscape and are fairly apparent.. finding narrow passages and placing snares isn't all that difficult. Repetition brings success. A person banking their next meal on 4 or 5 well placed snares vs. a person with the general concept who has placed 50 or 60 will likely not fair as well.