George Albert Smith And Mental Illness

[Bernard Gui]

Yet, the conclusion of the article itself was...

He also had lupus, mulitple episodes of pneumonia and much more. The author is making an educated guess that he had clinical depression. How he overcame that, of all things, should be the greatest lesson we walk away with. Even one of those events, given the lack of medical remedies, would be unimaginable for us today. I am kind of speechless that your only take from this is that he was a "black and white thinker"! Did you not read the section about his wife and the necessity of applying the cultural demands on female behavior before judging her as "clinging"?

I read this article some time ago. I previously knew next to nothing about this President. I now think he is one of the most remarkable.

When I experienced severe depression several years ago, shortly after the proximate deaths of both my parents and contracting an excruciating case of shingles (something I would not wish on my worst enemy, if I had enemies), I asked my LDS doctor how people coped with this in earlier times. His answer: they were institutionalized, became alcoholics, or killed themselves, or any combination of the three. After reading this account, my hat is off for Pres Smith. My admiration for his faith and perseverance is now astronomical. This story should be told church wide and frequently. For those experiencing depression, you must know that help is available, and it comes in many ways, and there is hope and recovery!

[juliann]

I agree. There is much to admired in how Pres. Smith coped with his trials. My intent in posting this link was to draw attention to the fact that Pres. Smith dealt with what in my opinion was a mental illness and breakdown. I do think his ministry is fraught with black and white thinking and it made me wondered how his struggles influenced his ministry.

Big UP!

Lamanite

But you need to establish cause and effect between "black and white thinking" and extreme medical conditions/depression before making it a "point of discussion" that can be applied to someone. Not to mention you do not even attempt to establish he was a black and white thinker. You continue to jump to conclusions that your own source does not. We now have a thread talking about what we really do consider mental illness....inappropriate or even violent behavior. Tacenda has even declared he was put in an institution. These wild assumptions are becoming offensive.

The story of his triumph over thesemaladies, is documented in surprising

detail in his correspondence and journals, much of it quoted here

for the first time, and in related papers of those close to him. His story

deserves telling for the hope it conveys to individuals likewise suffering

fromphysical illnesses that often bring in their wake emotional distress

and the inability to serve in Church callings despite their desire to be

healed, faith manifested in seeking priesthood blessings, and earnest

prayer. Although it is possible from a modern perspective to offer appropriately

tentative diagnoses of the organic cause of his ailment and

also hismental depression, Smith felt that prayerwas hismain resource

in dealing with his condition.

So here we have a man who lived with and even overcame some incredible and I mean incredible obstacles, and we are supposed to discuss how this made him a black and white thinker. Seriously??

[volgadon]

So, my question would be, where was the Mission President in this matter? Why was this elder allowed to remain, or was he? If things were indeed as bad as you make them out to be, and I have no reason to believe they weren't, it seems that the mission president, if he was aware, was irresponible at best - maybe more concerned with appearance of a smoothly run mission than with the health of an individual.

The elder was only a few weeks away from the end of his mission, so it was decided to let him end it honourably as quickly as possible. As long, of course, as there were no more violent spats. The mission president, who'd been out no more than 6 months, was very involved, I definitely can't fault him. He did the best he could with a tough situation, The feeling was basically, if the elder had come this far, let's do what we can to to get him through what remains. The mission president selected easy-going companions, told them what to expect, didn't insist on much proselytising, etc., but it was still a very trying time for all involved. A lot of it was nothing more than babysitting this elder. Once the situation has arisen, then of course, we should take care of the individual to the best of our abilities, but that is just it. The situation should never have arisen in the first place. There aren't nearly enough missionaries, especially in Russia, to babysit like this. Could the mission president have done better? Could the elder's companions have done better? Could I have done better? Perhaps, but none of us were trained mental helath care professionals. Calmoriah is right about the elder not having a good environment to which he could return. Without disclosing too much, he came from a horrid old mining town, a really ghastly place, where time seems to have stopped in the 50s. Most of the inhabitants still used outhouses built right after the war, so that should tell you something about the poverty levels. There certainly weren't very many psychologists and psychiatrists there, so he'd never gotten the help he needed. I still feel very bad for him, but it was a rough experience and a full time mission is not the best framework for treating mental illness.

[Bernard Gui]

The elder was only a few weeks away from the end of his mission, so it was decided to let him end it honourably as quickly as possible. As long, of course, as there were no more violent spats... not the best framework for treating mental illness.

This brings into focus the real world of missionary work.

[Bernard Gui]

So here we have a man who lived with and even overcame some incredible and I mean incredible obstacles, and we are supposed to discuss how this made him a black and white thinker. Seriously??

I am astonished that GA Smith survived at all, no less triumphed over so many difficulties, just one of which might

cripple anyone for life. For my money, he set the bar for enduring to the end in faith.

[Storm Rider]

Part of raising the bar initiative was to prevent similar situations. A mission is no place for an individual who suffers from serious mental or emotional illness. There is already a high degree of stress for the average missionary, much less the companions that would have to deal with mental/emotional illnesses that demand the care of far more qualified people than a young missionary who is just trying to serve. It is not fair to companions or the people that need the service of missionaries to have to deal with situations that are beyond their training or experience.

An enlightened society does not tolerate the antics of those of us who suffer from emotional illnesses, rather it provides the tools to these individuals to deal with their issues and be productive members of society. There is a distinct difference between the two scenarios.

[Tacenda]

But you need to establish cause and effect between "black and white thinking" and extreme medical conditions/depression before making it a "point of discussion" that can be applied to someone. Not to mention you do not even attempt to establish he was a black and white thinker. You continue to jump to conclusions that your own source does not. We now have a thread talking about what we really do consider mental illness....inappropriate or even violent behavior. Tacenda has even declared he was put in an institution. These wild assumptions are becoming offensive.

So here we have a man who lived with and even overcame some incredible and I mean incredible obstacles, and we are supposed to discuss how this made him a black and white thinker. Seriously??

In the autobiography written by Francis M. Gibbons called George Albert Smith: Kind and Caring Christian, Prophet of God. She goes into detail about Pres. Smith. He did suffer a nervous breakdown. They tried various things like moving him to St. George, etc. When certain measures of care were not working they eventually tried a sanitarium but it was for treatment. It was considered a clinic back then. So nothing like we might imagine. He did much better after he received some care there but didn't stay for a long time. Hopefully this link works because it was very interesting and you really see so many sides to this great man. If not, one could always buy the book!

http://www.cumorah.o..._M_Gibbons.html

A quote from the above link...

"As summer waned and as the patient's daily swims became less pleasant, it was decided to provide him with treatment in a well-staffed and equipped clinic where his diet and exercise would be controlled and where professional assistance would be constantly available. The clinic selected was Gray's Sanitarium, where he received daily hand and electric massage treatments to alleviate the nervousness and the intermittent dizzy spells he suffered. During the five weeks he stayed at Gray's, George Albert gained fifteen pounds, bringing his weight up to 160, almost ideal for his height and spare bone structure".

If you want to read more than go to the chapter that says "Trial and Trauma".

Edited October 14, 2012 by Tacenda

[thesometimesaint]

People who do not have a mental illness or learning disability will never understand those who do. We always look at the world through our own tinted glasses. People with mental illness, I find, tend to view others with odd behaviors as being mentally ill because it is how they perceive the world. We all have our own hammer, and everything around us appears to be a nail. If a mission president has no experience with such disabilities, he will not register that the behavior is anything other than immaturity or bad manners. I can peg certain disabilities quite quickly and being able to spot them helps me to understand them. Unfortunately, I can only identify and have natural empathy for those with whom I can relate due to may own personal experience.

One out of every one of us is neurotic and two out of every one of us is schizophrenic. But it is a bit of a misnomer that if we don't have a mental illness or a learning disability ourselves we can't understand those whom do. Mental illness and learning disabilities are one of degree not of presence. IE; Everyone will get the blues at some point in their lives. Far fewer will go on to have Clinical Depression.

Edited October 14, 2012 by thesometimesaint

[Freedom]

One out of every one of us is neurotic and two out of every one of us is schizophrenic. But it is a bit of a misnomer that if we don't have a mental illness or a learning disability ourselves we can't understand those whom do. Mental illness and learning disabilities are one of degree not of presence. IE; Everyone will get the blues at some point in their lives. Far fewer will go on to have Clinical Depression.

There is a difference between being depressed due to circumstances and being depressed for no reason at all. People who have exceptional learning and comprehension abilities often feel that those who perform poorly in school simply are not applying themselves. There are degrees perhaps, but there are also actual conditions that you either have or you do not have. I have never experienced depression and only rarely feel anxiety. I have high energy and for a long time considered people of low energy to be lazy or under achievers. Autism is another example of a condition that often goes undiagnosed. This is a measurable condition that is often interpreted as poor social skills or rudeness.

[thesometimesaint]

Freedom:

There is always a reason, even if we can't pinpoint it at the time. Diagnosis is always a Post Hoc affair.

People with exceptional learning and comprehension abilities maybe get bored. Schools are geared to the average student. Those at either extreme not so much.

Even the great Einstein wasn't a particularly good student and dropped out at age 15. He initially failed at the entrance exam to university.

Here is the definition of depression:

Depression is a state of low mood and aversion to activity that can have a negative effect on a person's thoughts, behavior, feelings, world view and physical well-being.^[1] Depressed people may feel sad, anxious, empty, hopeless, worried, helpless, worthless, guilty, irritable, hurt, or restless. They may lose interest in activities that once were pleasurable; experience loss of appetite or overeating; have problems concentrating, remembering details, or making decisions; and may contemplate or attempt suicide. Insomnia, excessive sleeping, fatigue, loss of energy, or aches, pains or digestive problems that are resistant to treatment may also be present.^[2]

The conditions are a reflection of the degree to which certain symptomatology exist. We all see the world differently. It is the degree to which we see that world differently than others that determines mental illness. IE; If I say the word for the color Green. We both will visualize a slightly differently color/hue of green. If someone were to visualize the number 15 instead that would be one marker for mental illness. If he functioned normally in all other areas of his life. We wouldn't call him mentally ill, but he would be a bit odd.

We really don't know the causes of autism and there is a whole panoply of characteristics that can be involved. We don't know if it is under or over diagnosed. There are fads in the mental health professions as with any other profession. Only time will tell if, and to what extent, our number of diagnosis is reflective of its actual occurrence or not.

[CV75]

Missionaries are limited in capacity or rejected outright because of mental illness. The diagnosis is subjective so some boys feel they were dealt with unfairly.

I think this and other matters of policy are largely a function of the Church having to function in a capacity of loco parentis.

[Calm]

One out of every one of us is neurotic and two out of every one of us is schizophrenic. But it is a bit of a misnomer that if we don't have a mental illness or a learning disability ourselves we can't understand those whom do. Mental illness and learning disabilities are one of degree not of presence. IE; Everyone will get the blues at some point in their lives. Far fewer will go on to have Clinical Depression.

There are fundamental differences between a temporary, stress related acute illness and a deep, long term disorder. The very things that can be helpful for the first can add to the problems of the second. People who have experienced minor illnesses can do great harm by insisting that if only a chronic sufferer just does what worked for them, all will be well....and when the cure doesn't cure....bad news all around.

[Bernard Gui]

There are fundamental differences between a temporary, stress related acute illness and a deep, long term disorder. The very things that can be helpful for the first can add to the problems of the second. People who have experienced minor illnesses can do great harm by insisting that if only a chronic sufferer just does what worked for them, all will be well....and when the cure doesn't cure....bad news all around.

Amen.

[Calm]

Amen.

Been there, huh?

[urroner]

Been there, huh?

Been there, done it, wear the t-shirt.

Edited October 15, 2012 by urroner

[Stargazer]

I've heard that Ezra Taft Benson was suffering from a degree of senility towards the end of his life, and a friend of mine actually witnessed an occasion in the Portland, Oregon Temple when he had to be gently nudged away from the podium and escorted out of the Assembly Room when he kept on speaking long after his time was up and he was rambling. My friend said it was actually inspiring because, while clearly not quite tracking things, he continued to bear his testimony as his two counselors were guiding him away.

There is nothing shameful about losing mental capacity in one's old age.

[Stargazer]

One out of every one of us is neurotic and two out of every one of us is schizophrenic.

[Lamanite]

But you need to establish cause and effect between "black and white thinking" and extreme medical conditions/depression before making it a "point of discussion"

The tone of your reply was edgy so I was wasn't sure I should reply. I'm not interested in talking past each other for 20 posts for the benefit of Internet voyeurs or the satisfaction of your indignation.

I can only speculate that some of Pres. Smith's idiosyncratic tendencies may have influenced his ministry. I can't "establish" a definitive causal relationship. However, in general it's perfectly normal for me to try and place some of his teachings into some type of context so that I can make better sense of things. (I realize that presentism poses a threat at this point.) My approach is similar to the "filling-in " phenomenon with eye sight or the "partial equilibrium" condition in economics. Simply put, filling in the blanks is how we as human beings process many of our experiences. So in an attempt to understand Pres. Smith a little better I draw parallels and fill in the blanks as best I can......and I think that is perfectly normal.

Now if you would like to challenge my assumptions then by all means have at it, but don't fault me for wanting to have the discussion.

Now, regarding President Smith's black and white thinking we have the following.

“There is a line of demarcation well defined between the Lord’s territory and the devil’s territory. If you will stay on the Lord’s side of the line you will be under his influence and will have no desire to do wrong; but if you cross to the devil’s side of that line one inch you are in the tempter’s power and if he is successful, you will not be able to think or even reason properly because you will have lost the Spirit of the Lord.”

At face value this type of statement is contrary to my own personal religious experience and exemplifies a rigidity that is, in my opinion, out of touch with reality. I would have to be hyper-creative in order to make this statement relevant to my own Mormon experience.

Now, I'm having a problem cutting and pasting from the article (.pdf file won't let me edit!?!?!) so I don't have quotes from the article, (I can figure out a way if you insist) but basically I made a connection between some of his teachings and some of his "issues" because they often manifested themselves in black and white terms. If you disagree then let's have a chat and I'll figure out a way to cut and past from the file and we can have a healthy discussion. But if you're sincerely not interested in a mutually beneficial discussion then just reply..."I disagree" and spare me the trouble.

Big UP!

Lamanite

Edited October 15, 2012 by Lamanite

[Lamanite]

I've heard that Ezra Taft Benson was suffering from a degree of senility towards the end of his life, and a friend of mine actually witnessed an occasion in the Portland, Oregon Temple when he had to be gently nudged away from the podium and escorted out of the Assembly Room when he kept on speaking long after his time was up and he was rambling. My friend said it was actually inspiring because, while clearly not quite tracking things, he continued to bear his testimony as his two counselors were guiding him away.

There is nothing shameful about losing mental capacity in one's old age.

Or at any age.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[volgadon]

The tone of your reply was edgy so I was wasn't sure I should reply. I'm not interested in talking past each other for 20 posts for the benefit of Internet voyeurs or the satisfaction of your indignation.

I can only speculate that some of Pres. Smith's idiosyncratic tendencies may have influenced his ministry. I can't "establish" a definitive causal relationship. However, in general it's perfectly normal for me to try and place some of his teachings into some type of context so that I can make better sense of things. (I realize that presentism poses a threat at this point.) My approach is similar to the "filling-in " phenomenon with eye sight or the "partial equilibrium" condition in economics. Simply put, filling in the blanks is how we as human beings process many of our experiences. So in an attempt to understand Pres. Smith a little better I draw parallels and fill in the blanks as best I can......and I think that is perfectly normal.

Now if you would like to challenge my assumptions then by all means have at it, but don't fault me for wanting to have the discussion.

Now, regarding President Smith's black and white thinking we have the following.

At face value this type of statement is contrary to my own personal religious experience and exemplifies a rigidity that is, in my opinion, out of touch with reality. I would have to be hyper-creative in order to make this statement relevant to my own Mormon experience.

Now, I'm having a problem cutting and pasting from the article (.pdf file won't let me edit!?!?!) so I don't have quotes from the article, (I can figure out a way if you insist) but basically I made a connection between some of his teachings and some of his "issues" because they often manifested themselves in black and white terms. If you disagree then let's have a chat and I'll figure out a way to cut and past from the file and we can have a healthy discussion. But if you're sincerely not interested in a mutually beneficial discussion then just reply..."I disagree" and spare me the trouble.

Big UP!

Lamanite

I was certain you'd post that. If you look at more than just that quote, you'll see that although he saw a clearly demarcated line between right and wrong, he was capable of understanding and loving people, encouraging them to do the right thing. Not sure that this is a bad thing.

[volgadon]

One should also point out that the quote was his grandfather's. Do you remember what you posted about bowie knifes recently?

[Lamanite]

Volgadon,

Please use the following quote from Elder Oaks to contrast against the one I gave from President Smith. One quote speaks of a process or a continuum while the other speaks in terms of one or the other.

the Final Judgment is not just an evaluation of a sum total of good and evil acts—what we have done. It is an acknowledgment of the final effect of our acts and thoughts—what we have become. It is not enough for anyone just to go through the motions. The commandments, ordinances, and covenants of the gospel are not a list of deposits required to be made in some heavenly account. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a plan that shows us how to become what our Heavenly Father desires us to become.

Te be sure there is a lot of good to be found with the teachings of Pres. Smith. One doesn't need to throw the baby out with the bath water to appreciate him.

Big UP!

Lamanite

P.S. I know I mentioned bowie knives in the dissent thread but remind me how it applies here. *** me getting ready for embarrassment***

[Lamanite]

Again from Pres. Smith

"The one who is talking that way is already on the devil’s side of the line, and you do not want to listen to him because if you do, you may be misled. Nobody talks that way who has the Spirit of the Lord. The Lord himself has said that we must keep his commandments: “There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated.” (D&C 130:20.) The gospel of Jesus Christ is to teach us how to earn that blessing.^4"

Again he's making references to a "line" where the devil and the lord take opposite sides. My question is, "How do I get on the Lords side of the line?" To which Pres. Smith answered by teaching that I must "keep his commandments" and keep an "irrevocably decreed" law. Which would be fine if it weren't impossible to exist completely on one side or another. Also, he teaches that I must "earn" my blessings. The concept of earning redemption is ludicrous. From my perspective it seems his emphasis is often on concepts like lines,laws, and earning-- rarely mentioning grace, mercy, or atonement. I think this rigidity could have something to do with his obsessive compulsive behaviors.

Perhaps Elder Maxwell was speaking to us all--- including Pres Smith when he said,

"[The Gospel] is a fullness the bounds and depths of which we today in the Church are so very slow to measure and to appreciate!"

I say this because Pres. Smith must not have appreciated the fact that there is no way to "earn" anything when it comes to the awful arithmetic of the atonement. Lines surely exist but it is impossible for us to place ourselves completely on one side or another. This very idea would require us to be perfectly evil or perfectly good to exist perfectly on one side or another. Nonsense. Even if we could do such a thing, could we sustain it? Alma 5 seems to imply that we be constantly re-born.

The gospel allows us to plot an eternal trajectory with the assistance of the Savior, always with the understanding that we make constant course corrections. Exaltation is a process not a game of hopscotch made up of lines drawn by the Lord or the Devil.

Anyway, I'm rambling.....

Big UP!

Edited October 15, 2012 by Lamanite

[Freedom]

The conditions are a reflection of the degree to which certain symptomatology exist. We all see the world differently. It is the degree to which we see that world differently than others that determines mental illness. IE; If I say the word for the color Green. We both will visualize a slightly differently color/hue of green. If someone were to visualize the number 15 instead that would be one marker for mental illness. If he functioned normally in all other areas of his life. We wouldn't call him mentally ill, but he would be a bit odd.

You clearly do not have a mental illness. There is a profound difference. Your comment is like saying the difference between a cold and throat cancer is a matter of degree. Bipolar conditions or manic depression is not a degree different than regular depression - they are not at all related. The degree to which one feels depressed can be the very same, the difference is that in one case, circumstances bring it on and a change in circumstances will take it away. In the other case, circumstances play little into the causes. One is simply depressed and nothing in their environment will change this. Often not even medication will change it.

All diagnoses are a post hoc affair as you call it. You get an eye infection and the doctor provides a post hoc diagnoses. You make it sound like people are trying to make up a diagnosis to fit the symptoms and that they assumptions are wrong. Your comments represent the very root of the problem with stigmas against mental illness. They are real, they are an illness just like having cancer or the flu. Some can be treated, others cannot. I recognize that some people are smarter than others, but having a learning disability is not simply about not being as smart. Often, people with learning disabilities are smart, they simply lack certain cognitive abilities such as the the ability to transmit ideas in writing or the inability to see linear patters such as letters that make up words.

[volgadon]

Volgadon,

Please use the following quote from Elder Oaks to contrast against the one I gave from President Smith. One quote speaks of a process or a continuum while the other speaks in terms of one or the other.

"If you will stay on" and "if he is successful" speak to an ongoing process, rather than a singular event. Elder Oaks is focusing on the final judgement, whereas President Smith was talking about living our life here on earth. Look also at the 2nd paragraph on p. 192 of the manual. A pathway is mentioned. The quotes on p. 194-195 don't betray the black-and-white thinking you attribute to President Smith. He says very clearly that there are varying degrees of being under Satan's power. Flipping the page, he continues his thoughts on how it is continually giving in to little temptations that "betray mankind and... place us in the power of the devil." P. 198-199 are a reminder of the need to constantly reevaluate our lives an readjust our course, if necessary. Then go to chapter 21 and tell me how his advice of focusing on others' virtues rather than their faults, and showing them kindness in order to let them feel God's love for them is the advice of a rigid, black-and-white thinker out of touch with reality.

Te be sure there is a lot of good to be found with the teachings of Pres. Smith. One doesn't need to throw the baby out with the bath water to appreciate him.

Big UP!

Lamanite

Agreed.

P.S. I know I mentioned bowie knives in the dissent thread but remind me how it applies here. *** me getting ready for embarrassment***

I don't know if George A. Smith had that specific incident in mind, but he did live through those years where even apostles turned against their brethren, and there would have been plenty of incidents showing a faithful saint the kind of poor reasoning accompanying a loss of the Spirit of the Lord. I don't think that is being out of touch with reality, when such was the reality George A. would have experienced.