George Albert Smith And Mental Illness

[Lamanite]

.... tell me how his advice of focusing on others' virtues rather than their faults, and showing them kindness in order to let them feel God's love for them is the advice of a rigid, black-and-white thinker out of touch with reality

To be honest, because of what I consider glaring moments of rigidity with Pres. Smith I tend to be less affected by his more tender moments. I'm sure I filtered the hell out of this lesson though. I guess if I went back and did a side by side comparison of the two types of sermons or teachings, I would be surprised by the number of the non-rigid sentiments. Additionally, I am completely aware of his extreme empathy and love for others and I don't mean to take away from his Christ like moments. I'm just concerned about sermons or teachings that to me to be unnecessarily legalistic and harsh. Definite and unyielding are words that come to mind. Maybe its just me. I can totally see where you're coming from, but I can't back away from my own experience with his teachings. I can try to readjust how I view his stuff presently, but my initial and ongoing relationship thus far regarding his ministry is largely a negative one.

Honesty is rough when you know its going to make you look like a heretical idiot. LOL.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[volgadon]

To be honest, because of what I consider glaring moments of rigidity with Pres. Smith I tend to be less affected by his more tender moments. I'm sure I filtered the hell out of this lesson though. I guess if I went back and did a side by side comparison of the two types of sermons or teachings, I would be surprised by the number of the non-rigid sentiments. Additionally, I am completely aware of his extreme empathy and love for others and I don't mean to take away from his Christ like moments. I'm just concerned about sermons or teachings that to me to be unnecessarily legalistic and harsh. Definite and unyielding are words that come to mind. Maybe its just me. I can totally see where you're coming from, but I can't back away from my own experience with his teachings. I can try to readjust how I view his stuff presently, but my initial and ongoing relationship thus far regarding his ministry is largely a negative one.

Honesty is rough when you know its going to make you look like a heretical idiot. LOL.

Big UP!

Lamanite

I consider you neither idiot nor heretic, but I do feel that you have formed an all-too hasty impression of Pres. Smith and force everything to fit that image. Consider, for example, that he noted how even leaders of the church could be on the wrong side of the line in certain things. That seems more nuanced than you care to concede.

[wenglund]

There are several reasons why I think that utilizing messages to the general membership from Church presidents over the last hundred or more years is not the most accurate way to assess the extent of their black/white thinking.

First, it is often more efficient and less complex and prone to confusion and misunderstanding to convey certain concepts to the general membership in black/white terms, particularly if the audience includes primary aged children, young adults, and recent converts whose conceptual framework may not be sufficiently developed to adequately grasp subtle gospel nuances.

Second, cultural communication patterns change over time. Back around the turn of the 20th century, and even on into the 1950's and 60's, people had far more of a tendency to speak emphatically and to draw clear binary lines than they do nowadays. Back then, there wasn't the kind of hyper-sensitivity to political correctness and tolerance as there is today, and so there wasn't as much of a need to publicly acknowledge areas of diversity and known shades of gray.

In other words, even though Church leaders back in the day may have thought in as nuanced terms as do Church leaders today, their messages to the general membership tended to be more black/white because of the make-up of their audience and the different cultures in which they lived.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited October 15, 2012 by wenglund

[thesometimesaint]

There are fundamental differences between a temporary, stress related acute illness and a deep, long term disorder. The very things that can be helpful for the first can add to the problems of the second. People who have experienced minor illnesses can do great harm by insisting that if only a chronic sufferer just does what worked for them, all will be well....and when the cure doesn't cure....bad news all around.

Not really. That example is still one of degree not of composition.

Most of us are pretty resilient. A short term bout of the blues is a common enough experience that few give it much thought beyond feeling a little down, or at worst go to a rhythm and blues joint for a little bit of commiseration. Clinical Depression is different, but only in degree. Its treatments however are much more involved, and not every treatment works or works well with everyone.

If I have a Nickel for every pop psychology idea out there I would be a rich man.

[Lamanite]

Second, cultural communication patterns change over time. In other words, even though Church leaders back in the day may have thought in as nuanced terms as do Church leaders today, their messages to the general membership tended to be more black/white because of the make-up of their audience and the different cultures in which they lived.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

What Wade has described above is one way I make some of his statements more palatable. It also removes any possible influence of a mental illness in his ministry. Two birds with one stone type of stuff.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[Lamanite]

I consider you neither idiot nor heretic, but I do feel that you have formed an all-too hasty impression of Pres. Smith and force everything to fit that image. Consider, for example, that he noted how even leaders of the church could be on the wrong side of the line in certain things. That seems more nuanced than you care to concede.

Hasty is not the word I would choose. I would use a word like "emotional." I formed an opinion based on my overall emotional reaction and then by emphasizing some of those things that distressed me the most. I thought there were enough questionable statements to justify my questioning his thinking and whether it was influenced by some of his "issues."

But I"m always pretty flexible which is why I'm having the discussion. You've persuaded me in a few things already, but I still haven't entirely abandoned my original premise or reaction to elements of his ministry.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[wenglund]

Not really. That example is still one of degree not of composition.

Most of us are pretty resilient. A short term bout of the blues is a common enough experience that few give it much thought beyond feeling a little down, or at worst go to a rhythm and blues joint for a little bit of commiseration. Clinical Depression is different, but only in degree. Its treatments however are much more involved, and not every treatment works or works well with everyone.

If I have a Nickel for every pop psychology idea out there I would be a rich man.

So, are you suggesting that the brain chemistry is pretty much the same, differing only in degrees, for someone who is clinically depressed for genetic reasons as someone who is having a bad day because he got a lower grade on a test than expected?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited October 15, 2012 by wenglund

[thesometimesaint]

wengland:

Of course it goes almost without saying that outside of certain limits without sufficient brain chemistry we wouldn't even be alive to worry about it. However we're just starting to understand how brain chemistry effects mental health. For example the role of serotonin on depression disorder in the brain.

[wenglund]

wengland:

Of course it goes almost without saying that outside of certain limits without sufficient brain chemistry we wouldn't even be alive to worry about it. However we're just starting to understand how brain chemistry effects mental health. For example the role of serotonin on depression disorder in the brain.

I am aware of this. My question was intended to elicit caution against buying into your own ironic "pop psychology idea" that clinical depression may only differ in degrees from regular depression.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Freedom]

Not really. That example is still one of degree not of composition.

Most of us are pretty resilient. A short term bout of the blues is a common enough experience that few give it much thought beyond feeling a little down, or at worst go to a rhythm and blues joint for a little bit of commiseration. Clinical Depression is different, but only in degree. Its treatments however are much more involved, and not every treatment works or works well with everyone.

If I have a Nickel for every pop psychology idea out there I would be a rich man.

Again, because you do not have a mental illness, or likely anybody in your family with one, you are completely ignorant on the topic. It is not a matter of degrees. A mental illness is completely different. they are scientifically measurable.

[thesometimesaint]

Freedom:

I am a trained Psychiatric Social Worker. I do know exactly what I'm talking about.

[Freedom]

Freedom:

I am a trained Psychiatric Social Worker. I do know exactly what I'm talking about.

This is like saying I am a trained plumber, I therefore know to manufacture pvcv piping. You are not a psychiatrist a neurologist or a person suffering from a mental illness. You do not know what you are talking about.

[Bikeemikey]

Doesn't the BOM teach that everything is black and white?

Nope.

[Freedom]

It is one thing to work as a social worker, dealing with crisis management and assisting the most vulnerable it is quite a different thing to be trained to diagnose what is causing people be become vulnerable and knowing how to treat it. There is extensive training and certification involved. There are people sitting beside you in church that appear perfectly normal, people you would never expect to see as a social worker, that are suffering from a debilitating mental illness - there is a measurable chemical difference, sometimes a physiological difference, that causes them to suffer. As a social worker, you have never received this training. It is the difference between a structural engineer who understand how to build the building, and an interior designer who knows how to put the space to good use. There are measurable degrees of illness, but you cannot put a normal person on one end and someone with bipolar condition on the other. Someone with a bipolar condition may feel the same degree of depression as someone without a mental illness - the difference is that they have virtually no control over the feeling. It can be very mild. Social workers never deal with the mild cases so in their line of work, they would have no experience or expertise in this area.

There are people who hear voices, and these voices are very real. I know someone who, for what ever reason, lacks the capacity to read numbers. These conditions are not a degree of difference from mentally healthy people, nor does it have anything to do with I.Q. There is something broken. A mental illness is like any other illness. Some of us have cancer, some of us don't - the matters of degree are among those who have cancer. A person without cancer does not have less of a problem with cancer, they don't have any problem with cancer.

[thesometimesaint]

Freedom:

You are claiming that you being a trained plumber, and/or not being a piece of pvcv pipe, means that you don't know anything about plumbing. It's ridiculous on it face.

Ps. That is like saying that a neurosurgeon whom doesn't have brain cancer can't treat you for it.

[Bikeemikey]

Freedom:

You are claiming that you being a trained plumber, and/or not being a piece of pvcv pipe, means that you don't know anything about plumbing. It's ridiculous on it face.

Ps. That is like saying that a neurosurgeon whom doesn't have brain cancer can't treat you for it.

Thats not what I got from Freedoms post.

It is more like if you a specialized plumber in high pressure water mains and someone were to ask you how to deal with a problem on a hydrodam you may not be a good fit.

[wenglund]

Thats not what I got from Freedoms post.

It is more like if you a specialized plumber in high pressure water mains and someone were to ask you how to deal with a problem on a hydrodam you may not be a good fit.

Agreed. It is the sound precept of humility--i.e. knowing when one is out of one's depth and thus not speaking emphatically beyond one's depth.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Freedom]

Freedom:

You are claiming that you being a trained plumber, and/or not being a piece of pvcv pipe, means that you don't know anything about plumbing. It's ridiculous on it face.

Ps. That is like saying that a neurosurgeon whom doesn't have brain cancer can't treat you for it.

Let me restate it - plumbers know how to install pipes, they do not know how to make them. A neurosurgeon's expertise is to deal with neurological problems so no, they cannot treat you for cancer. Cancer is outside their area of expertise. A social worker does not treat mental illness making mental illness outside their area of expertise. You know how to help people socialize, you do not know what is causing them to struggle. You have no training in how to diagnose or treat their problem. They go to an expert for this. Your job is to make sure they are following through with the professional advise they have been given.

[thesometimesaint]

Freedom:

It is one thing to work as a social worker, dealing with crisis management and assisting the most vulnerable it is quite a different thing to be trained to diagnose what is causing people be become vulnerable and knowing how to treat it. There is extensive training and certification involved. There are people sitting beside you in church that appear perfectly normal, people you would never expect to see as a social worker, that are suffering from a debilitating mental illness - there is a measurable chemical difference, sometimes a physiological difference, that causes them to suffer. As a social worker, you have never received this training. It is the difference between a structural engineer who understand how to build the building, and an interior designer who knows how to put the space to good use. There are measurable degrees of illness, but you cannot put a normal person on one end and someone with bipolar condition on the other. Someone with a bipolar condition may feel the same degree of depression as someone without a mental illness - the difference is that they have virtually no control over the feeling. It can be very mild. Social workers never deal with the mild cases so in their line of work, they would have no experience or expertise in this area.

There are people who hear voices, and these voices are very real. I know someone who, for what ever reason, lacks the capacity to read numbers. These conditions are not a degree of difference from mentally healthy people, nor does it have anything to do with I.Q. There is something broken. A mental illness is like any other illness. Some of us have cancer, some of us don't - the matters of degree are among those who have cancer. A person without cancer does not have less of a problem with cancer, they don't have any problem with cancer.

You really don't know what you are talking about do you?

I have that training and certificates. I could before I retired, by law diagnose and treat those with mental health issues.

Of course I know that people in Church have mental health problems. There is nothing that makes Church membership a talisman against mental illness. But Church meetings is hardly the place to hold a individual/group therapy session and/or recommend the needed medications.

Totally depends on the mental illness. Some require medications many do not.

I worked closely with psychiatrists whom do prescribe medications based principally on my diagnosis, and recommendations.

BTW New Mexico allows psychologists to prescribe drugs, and several other states are looking at allowing it also. I'm retired so it won't effect me either way.

Again your ignorance is showing. Don't worry we're all ignorant in one or more areas. Bipolar disease, also known as manic depressive disorder, has two "poles", depression and some form of mania. Depression alone is not bipolar, and is treated differently. Yes we do have drugs that help alleviate some of the symptoms, but they rarely work without having some form of cognitive(talk) therapy. The drugs merely act as a crutch to help the client feel "normal" so there isn't the emotional "push" of compulsion. We have a big problem with the clients feeling normal, then without clearance going off the drugs. So the emotional "push" returns with a vengeance.

I dealt with minor cases a lot. Breathing exercises are beneficial to many with some mild forms of depression. While I don't recommend it, self medication seldom works for severe mental health problems, a good barkeep does almost as good a job at treating mild depression as we in the profession do. Clinical Depression is another matter entirely. There alcohol, or illicit drugs don't help, they only hurt.

Hearing voices, "seeing" things, phantom sensations, and smelling things that are not there are known as hallucinations, and is unrelated to reading numbers . Everyone has them. The human brain always goes to completion. That is why a works. We naturally "see" a human face It is our response to the hallucination that determines mental illness, Reading numbers can be a form of dyslexia, or lack of appropriate education. or brain trauma.

We ALL have some cancer cells running around in our bodies. Most of us will not go onto develop the recognized symptoms of cancer.

[Lamanite]

a good barkeep does almost as good a job at treating mild depression as we in the profession do.

This is the most ignorant asinine thing I've read all week. LOL. I just had to bring my 13 yr old daughter into the room to show her what true ignorance reads like. HA! If the barkeep can't help I know a good crack/meth dealer I can refer.....he has worked wonders for my seasonal depression!

Priceless

[volgadon]

This is the most ignorant asinine thing I've read all week. LOL. I just had to bring my 13 yr old daughter into the room to show her what true ignorance reads like. HA! If the barkeep can't help I know a good crack/meth dealer I can refer.....he has worked wonders for my seasonal depression!

Priceless

There was an old National Lampoon cartoon about the unhappiest man in New York. He had an Irish psychiatrist and a Jewish bartender. "Drinking, drinking, drinking, always drinking! So much to drink! It's not good for your health, so much to drink... Have a little milk instead... A night like this, you shouldn't be out anyway."

What I think TSS was saying is that in cases of mild depression (not clinical), such as a guy getting chewed out by his boss, finding out that his wife had an affair with the encyclopedia salesman, and someone smashed his car's window to steal the sound system, talking to a barman is probably as effective as talking to a social worker. Barmen, after all, have a reputation for being good listeners, and undoubtedly have lots of experience in practical psychological therapy. Since alcohol has a numbing effect, many are going to seek it if they are unhappy. I'm not advocating alcohol use, I've seen the horrific, destructive side, but people do use it, and for better or worse, people turn to barmen for support and advice, just like they would with a psychologist. As Shane McGowan described the musician in "Sally McLenanne," the barman "soothes the soul of pyschos and the men who've had the horn."

[Lamanite]

There was an old National Lampoon cartoon about the unhappiest man in New York. He had an Irish psychiatrist and a Jewish bartender. "Drinking, drinking, drinking, always drinking! So much to drink! It's not good for your health, so much to drink... Have a little milk instead... A night like this, you shouldn't be out anyway."

What I think TSS was saying is that in cases of mild depression (not clinical), such as a guy getting chewed out by his boss, finding out that his wife had an affair with the encyclopedia salesman, and someone smashed his car's window to steal the sound system, talking to a barman is probably as effective as talking to a social worker. Barmen, after all, have a reputation for being good listeners, and undoubtedly have lots of experience in practical psychological therapy. Since alcohol has a numbing effect, many are going to seek it if they are unhappy. I'm not advocating alcohol use, I've seen the horrific, destructive side, but people do use it, and for better or worse, people turn to barmen for support and advice, just like they would with a psychologist. As Shane McGowan described the musician in "Sally McLenanne," the barman "soothes the soul of pyschos and the men who've had the horn."

Yes.....You're probably right. My response is probably a reflection of my own desire to self medicate. Sorry about that Saint!!! (Am I supposed to delete posts like that or just leave them up after I realized I'm probably wrong???)

BIg UP!

Lamanite

[Tacenda]

There was an old National Lampoon cartoon about the unhappiest man in New York. He had an Irish psychiatrist and a Jewish bartender. "Drinking, drinking, drinking, always drinking! So much to drink! It's not good for your health, so much to drink... Have a little milk instead... A night like this, you shouldn't be out anyway."

What I think TSS was saying is that in cases of mild depression (not clinical), such as a guy getting chewed out by his boss, finding out that his wife had an affair with the encyclopedia salesman, and someone smashed his car's window to steal the sound system, talking to a barman is probably as effective as talking to a social worker. Barmen, after all, have a reputation for being good listeners, and undoubtedly have lots of experience in practical psychological therapy. Since alcohol has a numbing effect, many are going to seek it if they are unhappy. I'm not advocating alcohol use, I've seen the horrific, destructive side, but people do use it, and for better or worse, people turn to barmen for support and advice, just like they would with a psychologist. As Shane McGowan described the musician in "Sally McLenanne," the barman "soothes the soul of pyschos and the men who've had the horn."

Barmen for men, hairdresser for women!

[thesometimesaint]

Yes.....You're probably right. My response is probably a reflection of my own desire to self medicate. Sorry about that Saint!!! (Am I supposed to delete posts like that or just leave them up after I realized I'm probably wrong???)

BIg UP!

Lamanite

No problem my friend.