Proper Use Of Labels Or Controlling The Dialogue?

[KevinG]

Using the term apostate to describe someone who has left the LDS church was deemed "unhelpful to the dialogue" in another discussion.

The person who objected admitted to having renounced their faith in the LDS church but still objected to the term.

- - -

Apostate = renunciation of a religious faith or abandonment of a previous loyalty

Middle English apostasie, from Late Latin apostasia, from Greek, literally, revolt, from aphistasthai to revolt, from apo-+ histasthai to stand — more at stand

First Known Use: 14th century

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apostasy

- - -

When asked to provide an alternative descriptor for someone who has left or renounced their faith the poster declined twice.

We have had several similar discussions regarding labels like critic, anti-Mormon, apologist, TBM, etc. and a current thread on the use of the word "cult" as a pejorative, and it seems to me that offering the courtesy of allowing people to define themselves on their own terms is a positive step in understanding. So far as those terms aren't designed to hide real intent or hide wolves in sheep's clothing (i.e. using a milder title like "open minded" to describe someone actively opposed to the church and seeking to pull others away).

What is a better term for those of you who no longer wish to be identified as Mormon but take offense at the word Apostate?

[ERayR]

Using the term apostate to describe someone who has left the LDS church was deemed "unhelpful to the dialogue" in another discussion.

The person who objected admitted to having renounced their faith in the LDS church but still objected to the term.

- - -

Apostate = renunciation of a religious faith or abandonment of a previous loyalty

Middle English apostasie, from Late Latin apostasia, from Greek, literally, revolt, from aphistasthai to revolt, from apo-+ histasthai to stand — more at stand

First Known Use: 14th century

http://www.merriam-w...ionary/apostasy

- - -

When asked to provide an alternative descriptor for someone who has left or renounced their faith the poster declined twice.

We have had several similar discussions regarding labels like critic, anti-Mormon, apologist, TBM, etc. and a current thread on the use of the word "cult" as a pejorative, and it seems to me that offering the courtesy of allowing people to define themselves on their own terms is a positive step in understanding. So far as those terms aren't designed to hide real intent or hide wolves in sheep's clothing (i.e. using a milder title like "open minded" to describe someone actively opposed to the church and seeking to pull others away).

What is a better term for those of you who no longer wish to be identified as Mormon but take offense at the word Apostate?

Um UMMM Well I think apostate fits really well.

[Glenn101]

Maybe they want to be known as "critical thinkers". <grin>

I think that non-believer might be less pejorative.

Glenn

[TAO]

I Just call them critics. I've never known anybody get offended over that word. It isn't overly negative or positive... it just describes their position generally. If they are strong critics, then I call them strong critics to give more emphasis.

You can also use the word 'critical' which helps.

[Tacenda]

I'm on the fence, jury still out. A few months ago I was feeling like the church was all wrong because of history I wasn't aware of but after several long years became aware. But hanging around here discussing the history not normally discussed in church among true believers keeps me from making the leap to apostate.

I listened to Teryl Givens in a podcast today and he said a gentleman just couldn't understand our theology on becoming Gods. Teryl asked him the question "what will you be doing on such and such a day in a million years"? Meaning anything different than what you were doing at the first in heaven. This question stumped the guy and he couldn't come up with an answer. That brought home to me that it may take a million years before one can become a God.

I say this because this doctrine has been a thorn in my side for along time.

So middlewayer here, for now.

[KevinG]

Critic usually works for me. However sometimes it is useful to distinguish where someone is coming from.

Critic - former member

Critic - never a member

Critic - current member

All of these are different perspectives on Mormonism.

In this case when someone introduced themselves as a former Bishop nonbeliever I quipped "sure are a lot of apostate Bishops on the interwebz. Just sayin'" as an admittedly pointed but humorous way of pointing out a lot of critics claim some type of former authority in the LDS church. And yes I know that attitude didn't exactly invite warm fuzzy feelings.

[KevinG]

That brought home to me that it may take a million years before one can become a God.

Relax Tecenda I'm sure your husband thinks you are a goddess right now. If not tell him he needs to read the Lorenzo Snow manual and repent.

[ERayR]

Relax Tecenda I'm sure your husband thinks you are a goddess right now. If not tell him he needs to read the Lorenzo Snow manual and repent.

Yup just a matter of perspective.

[Tacenda]

Relax Tecenda I'm sure your husband thinks you are a goddess right now. If not tell him he needs to read the Lorenzo Snow manual and repent.

I wish...

[CA Steve]

How about deconvert?

[ERayR]

How about using the words that mean what you are trying to say and quit obfuscating,

[zerinus]

Using the term apostate to describe someone who has left the LDS church was deemed "unhelpful to the dialogue" in another discussion.

The person who objected admitted to having renounced their faith in the LDS church but still objected to the term.

- - -

When asked to provide an alternative descriptor for someone who has left or renounced their faith the poster declined twice.

That doesn't make sense. If he objects to the term, he should be able to suggest an alternative. If he can't, then apostate will do.

[CV75]

What is a better term for those of you who no longer wish to be identified as Mormon but take offense at the word Apostate?

As a more general observation of the same dynamic, I find the that pattern of complaining about terms and labels in thread discussions is a defense mechanism by the purportedly offended party to avoid discussing the real issue the so-called offender has brought up.

A similar tactic is to refuse to accept the explanation, or argue over the explanation that is offered when clarification asked, apparently in an attempt to sabotage the dialogue that is being sought.

In either case, instead of offering an alternative view, they act on a more infantile need to attack, combat and defend rather than just engage (or re-engage) in a manner that actually is “helpful to the dialogue.”

So apostate is a good word, especially when the context or item of discussion involving its use has been well-laid out.

[blackstrap]

I hesitate to say this,but there are a select few of our critics for whom it could be said that they have the mind of Claudia Schiffer.

waiting

waiting

[The Nehor]

I just call them hell-bound baby-eating slaves of Satan. They then derail the discussion with crazy talk about me insulting them. Losers.

[Libs]

Why the need to put negative labels on people? Why not just say "someone who left the church" or "former LDS"?

I don't really care, personally, if someone calls me an apostate, but I don't think it's very kind or necessary.

Critics often use words that they believe are descriptive of active LDS that I don't think most LDS would appreciate, even though the critic believes those words to be accurate descriptions. It's all in the perspective.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Libs

[volgadon]

How about deconvert?

The English language is not that pliable.

[Storm Rider]

The tone of the word apostate carries a position of fighting against the Church or the previous belief system. There are certainly people that the term fits well. I met a good Catholic fellow one time that was previously a LDS; to me he was not an apostate so much as a convert to Catholicism.

The objective is to be accurate and we need to be aware of the tone of some words. When they all match up; I use the term that fits. However, when not everything matches I try to err on the side of kindness. Having said that I openly admit that I am not kind to some people and I don't intend to be kind at those times. At times we need to be forthright rather than pamper the obnoxious.

[The Nehor]

The English language is not that pliable.

Irregardless of that yes it is.

[DavidB]

Using the term apostate to describe someone who has left the LDS church was deemed "unhelpful to the dialogue" in another discussion.

The person who objected admitted to having renounced their faith in the LDS church but still objected to the term.

- - -

Apostate = renunciation of a religious faith or abandonment of a previous loyalty

Middle English apostasie, from Late Latin apostasia, from Greek, literally, revolt, from aphistasthai to revolt, from apo-+ histasthai to stand — more at stand

First Known Use: 14th century

http://www.merriam-w...ionary/apostasy

- - -

When asked to provide an alternative descriptor for someone who has left or renounced their faith the poster declined twice.

What is a better term for those of you who no longer wish to be identified as Mormon but take offense at the word Apostate?

Why do you need labels?

I rarely if every see the use of labels as being anything other than well poisoning and the like.

[KevinG]

Why the need to put negative labels on people? Why not just say "someone who left the church" or "former LDS"?

I don't really care, personally, if someone calls me an apostate, but I don't think it's very kind or necessary.

Critics often use words that they believe are descriptive of active LDS that I don't think most LDS would appreciate, even though the critic believes those words to be accurate descriptions. It's all in the perspective.

Uh Libs... "someone who left the church" or "former LDS" are labels. Just longer labels.

That's what language does. It names things.

In the case of the discussion I had the offended party declined to provide a more suitable label. That's why I started this discussion.

[Libs]

Uh Libs... "someone who left the church" or "former LDS" are labels. Just longer labels.

That's what language does. It names things.

In the case of the discussion I had the offended party declined to provide a more suitable label. That's why I started this discussion.

Yeah, well, you should have asked me.

The thing is "apostate" is kind of a derisive label. It's like calling an LDS a "cultist". I'm sure some people feel that label (cultist) fits, but it still feels like name calling, when it's directed at someone who doesn't accept the label.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Libs

[DBMormon]

Using the term apostate to describe someone who has left the LDS church was deemed "unhelpful to the dialogue" in another discussion.

The person who objected admitted to having renounced their faith in the LDS church but still objected to the term.

- - -

Apostate = renunciation of a religious faith or abandonment of a previous loyalty

Middle English apostasie, from Late Latin apostasia, from Greek, literally, revolt, from aphistasthai to revolt, from apo-+ histasthai to stand — more at stand

First Known Use: 14th century

http://www.merriam-w...ionary/apostasy

- - -

When asked to provide an alternative descriptor for someone who has left or renounced their faith the poster declined twice.

We have had several similar discussions regarding labels like critic, anti-Mormon, apologist, TBM, etc. and a current thread on the use of the word "cult" as a pejorative, and it seems to me that offering the courtesy of allowing people to define themselves on their own terms is a positive step in understanding. So far as those terms aren't designed to hide real intent or hide wolves in sheep's clothing (i.e. using a milder title like "open minded" to describe someone actively opposed to the church and seeking to pull others away).

What is a better term for those of you who no longer wish to be identified as Mormon but take offense at the word Apostate?

Apostate implies negative intentions or motives - one who rebels against the faith. I think someone can leave quietly without being an apostate. I think a nicer term is ex-mormon

or if still on the records - inactive. If they are not a member but once was and they are actively rebelling against the truth in an effort to expose the church for what they see as a false faith (in their view) then Apostate is a Fair Term - But I would error on the side of caution in using it.

Also side note - A member who is not being disciplined by those in authority should hardly ever be called an apostate as that is a judgement call that isn't anothers to make.

Edited September 9, 2012 by DBMormon

[Carborendum]

How about using the words that mean what you are trying to say and quit obfuscating,

What and completely abandon our society built on obtuse and avoidance?!? I mean, where do you get off?!

[Carborendum]

Cult can be applied to many Chrisitan sects. But they are specifically not applied to many of them. Because of this inconsistency, it becomes more credible to believe that the primary usage of the word is for connotation rather than denotation.

When we apply the term apostate, it is usually (and I mean the vast majority of the cases) applied consistently to those who have not only given up the faith, but are in open rebellion against it. Such usage (and consistency) is primarily for the denotation. The connotation is simply an accurate description of most of our feelings towards the same. But it is not the primary driving force for the usage of the word.

That is the difference.

Edited September 9, 2012 by Carborendum