Proper Use Of Labels Or Controlling The Dialogue?

[TAO]

I'd agree with Libs. Generally, it's best to avoid the term 'apostate' (except used in the mildness of terms, to describe historical figures in church history for example), just as it's good to avoid cult (unless you are using it to describe the term sociologically).

[ERayR]

I'd agree with Libs. Generally, it's best to avoid the term 'apostate' (except used in the mildness of terms, to describe historical figures in church history for example), just as it's good to avoid cult (unless you are using it to describe the term sociologically).

If it walks like an apostate. If it sounds like an apostate. Then it is an apostate. The d*** political correctness is stifling communication. If someone doesn't like a label then don't become whatever it is you don't want to be called. Any word in the language can be turned into a pejorative.

Edited September 9, 2012 by ERayR

[Libs]

It has nothing to do with PCness, Ray. It has more to do with civil discourse (if you are thinking of applying that label to people with whom you are trying to have a discussion).

[ERayR]

It has nothing to do with PCness, Ray. It has more to do with civil discourse (if you are thinking of applying that label to people with whom you are trying to have a discussion).

Libs it has everything to do with PC. A word is not a pejorative unless some one makes it one. I could turn your name into a pejorative. In fact there was one poster sometime back that this was done to for a short while. It only underscores my point that language becomes meaningless if everyone is allowed to define words to suit themselves. If we are to let special groups get away with redefining word meanings pretty soon it is all gibberish.

[TAO]

If it walks like an apostate. If it sounds like an apostate. Then it is an apostate.

Wait! We need to bring mfb in here! Remember... just because it looks like a duck... doesn't mean it's a duck!

The d*** political correctness is stifling communication. If someone doesn't like a label then don't become whatever it is you don't want to be called. Any word in the language can be turned into a pejorative.

Of course. You can call them whatever they want on your own. But calling them an apostate isn't very likely to improve communication. If you don't want communication, then feel free to call them apostate. But if you wish to bring them into communication with you, it is ideal to use words they aren't going to find too offensive. Yes, you have to have a certain degree of abrasiveness, but I believe calling them an apostate every few sentences is going just a bit too far (I think most of them would somewhat agree with the statement).

And yeah, any word can be turned into this. You just have to decide where that happy medium is, descriptive, but not overly offensive. Otherwise, it'll just be another argument where they call you 'cult', and 'moron', and you call them 'faithless apostate'.

Edited September 10, 2012 by TAO

[cacheman]

I prefer the term apostate over critic because I'm only critical of certain things in the LDS religion, but I am, technically, an apostate. All in all, it really doesn't matter much to me what I'm called.

cacheman

[Libs]

ERay:

A word is not a pejorative unless some one makes it one.

Yes, and it is often the people who are using those words, to define others, who intend it as a pejorative...not, necessarily, the person who is being "attacked" with those words.

Also, regarding definitions, I was recently informed that strict "dictionary definitions" don't, necessarily, apply. This, when I was questioning why LDS don't call themselves polytheists (as the dictionary definition most certainly seems to fit). But, a lot of LDS do not like being defined that way, even though the definition, technically, fits. The main reason given was that it is used as a pejorative and conjures up a vision of worshiping many false gods.

I, think, the same could be said of the word "apostate". It sounds like someone who turned completely away from God, knowing that is what they were doing....which, is not, generally, the case. Not everyone who leaves the church leaves God. And, those who do, may not believe there is even a God to "leave", so it doesn't really apply. It's just a very negative term, and not representative (for most) of what it means/meant to leave the church.

[Tacenda]

I think a better word than "apostate" would be "disaffected".

[TAO]

I prefer the term apostate over critic because I'm only critical of certain things in the LDS religion, but I am, technically, an apostate. All in all, it really doesn't matter much to me what I'm called.

cacheman

Sounds cool. =) I'll try and remember... though if I forget, I apologize =/.

[Dcharle]

kg – Really?

You have devoted a post so you can figure out what names you can call people on the internet?

Come on, are you really just a 13 year old on your dads computer at night?

Labeling does not help raise the level of discourse, I am all for the lively debate of ideas but labels only entrench people and your message gets lost. This is also why I don’t use cute little fuzzy animals in my name tag, your message gets lost.

I don’t know many people who no longer accept orthodox Mormonism that have completely abandoned all of Mormonism, most still embrace Christian principles. Very few people do a complete 90 degree turn, this is why words like “apostate” do not apply.

For me, personally, I cannot understand how someone who “supposedly” has a full understanding of all the historical and intellectual problems with Mormonism and of all Joseph Smiths craziness can suspend reason and logic for religious belief.

However, I realize that human psychology is very complex so I try to not personalize the debate. It wouldn’t take much intellectual horsepower for me to use such descriptive adjectives as:

Gullible

Unsophisticated

Simple Minded

And then paste a Wikipedia link to a word like Naïve:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naivety

I do not use these words because I know that believing Mormons are not simple minded people, just like those who no longer accept the Mormon truth claims are not apostate, anti-mormons. Keep the discourse around ideas, and do your best to defend them with sound well thought out rationale, otherwise you run the risk of looking a bit juvenile.

If you need a name to call me Dcharle will work fine…

Show others the respect you demand for yourself. You are excused from this thread. -Ares

Edited September 10, 2012 by Ares

[Calm]

Wait! We need to bring mfb in here! Remember... just because it looks like a duck... doesn't mean it's a duck!

Excellent recall.

[thesometimesaint]

Exmormon.

[Calm]

I think a better word than "apostate" would be "disaffected".

Why not just use exLDS....biggest selling point for me is that it has the fewest letters to type. Or does one have to be off the lists for this to be acceptable as a label too? Now that I am thinking about it, I have seen someone complain that it wasn't fair to call him that since he felt he still maintained emotional and cultural ties with the LDS community due to his heritage and upbringing....few labels it seems are going to satisfy everyone so it seems to me to be the best to define how you intend to use a term (including connotation) and as long as it is reasonable based on common usage and as long as you keep to your definition and don't try to smuggle in anything else, I don't see why this should be a major problem in most cases.

I can see why some may have a particular distaste for the term "apostate" as it has been used historically in church conversations in a more negative way due to wellknown apostate activity in historical events, but if someone is having a more generic conversation that is not taking place solely among church members than using the term as it is used in academic or nonchurch settings seems appropriate where "apostate" in no way is equivalent to "anti-mormon".

Edited September 10, 2012 by calmoriah

[The Grimace]

What is a better term for those of you who no longer wish to be identified as Mormon but take offense at the word Apostate?

I think we are all aware of that the use of the term apostate is used to slander the recipient.

Better terms:

Ex-mormon

Friend

Neighbor

[Tacenda]

Why not just use exLDS....biggest selling point for me is that it has the fewest letters to type. Or does one have to be off the lists for this to be acceptable as a label too? Now that I am thinking about it, I have seen someone complain that it wasn't fair to call him that since he felt he still maintained emotional and cultural ties with the LDS community due to his heritage and upbringing....few labels it seems are going to satisfy everyone so it seems to me to be the best to define how you intend to use a term (including connotation) and as long as it is reasonable based on common usage and as long as you keep to your definition and don't try to smuggle in anything else, I don't see why this should be a major problem in most cases.

I can see why some may have a particular distaste for the term "apostate" as it has been used historically in church conversations in a more negative way due to wellknown apostate activity in historical events, but if someone is having a more generic conversation that is not taking place solely among church members than using the term as it is used in academic or nonchurch settings seems appropriate where "apostate" in no way is equivalent to "anti-mormon".

Most disaffected members have not sent a letter in to have their names removed from church records, therefore technically not ex-mormon.

Secondly, the label "apostate"does bring up connotations of the past. In the early years Danites were sent to exterminate some apostates.

When reading about MMM on the thread the other day I did a little research on BY. There was also another massacre I believe in the northern part of Utah. The Morrisites apparently left the belief and several were killed for being apostates.

Disaffected seems to fit more where apostate is more in line with anti mormon, imo.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Tacenda

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Using the term apostate to describe someone who has left the LDS church was deemed "unhelpful to the dialogue" in another discussion.

The person who objected admitted to having renounced their faith in the LDS church but still objected to the term.

- - -

Apostate = renunciation of a religious faith or abandonment of a previous loyalty

Middle English apostasie, from Late Latin apostasia, from Greek, literally, revolt, from aphistasthai to revolt, from apo-+ histasthai to stand — more at stand

First Known Use: 14th century

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apostasy

- - -

When asked to provide an alternative descriptor for someone who has left or renounced their faith the poster declined twice.

We have had several similar discussions regarding labels like critic, anti-Mormon, apologist, TBM, etc. and a current thread on the use of the word "cult" as a pejorative, and it seems to me that offering the courtesy of allowing people to define themselves on their own terms is a positive step in understanding. So far as those terms aren't designed to hide real intent or hide wolves in sheep's clothing (i.e. using a milder title like "open minded" to describe someone actively opposed to the church and seeking to pull others away).

What is a better term for those of you who no longer wish to be identified as Mormon but take offense at the word Apostate?

I am just agnostic...it would hurt very much for someone to call me "apostate". If there is a true Church, I believe this one would be it. I will never become anti-Mormon.

[TAO]

Excellent recall.

Haha... it was more of a joke. It's an awesome drawing, hehe! =D

In any case, I understand and agree with to a degree about what Erayr was trying to say; that there is only so much you can compromise your language with other people without losing your values, and we have to be careful not to over-compromise in our communications.

[Calm]

Agreed.

[Libs]

I like that drawing ...and I think we have to be careful not to call a "duck" a "rabbit".

Seems like many of the people, who show up on this board, are struggling/questioning LDS, and it would be doing them a disservice to label them "apostate".

[KevinG]

kg – Really?

You have devoted a post so you can figure out what names you can call people on the internet?

Come on, are you really just a 13 year old on your dads computer at night?

Labeling does not help raise the level of discourse, I am all for the lively debate of ideas but labels only entrench people and your message gets lost. This is also why I don’t use cute little fuzzy animals in my name tag, your message gets lost.

I don’t know many people who no longer accept orthodox Mormonism that have completely abandoned all of Mormonism, most still embrace Christian principles. Very few people do a complete 90 degree turn, this is why words like “apostate” do not apply.

For me, personally, I cannot understand how someone who “supposedly” has a full understanding of all the historical and intellectual problems with Mormonism and of all Joseph Smiths craziness can suspend reason and logic for religious belief.

However, I realize that human psychology is very complex so I try to not personalize the debate. It wouldn’t take much intellectual horsepower for me to use such descriptive adjectives as:

Gullible

Unsophisticated

Simple Minded

And then paste a Wikipedia link to a word like Naïve:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naivety

I do not use these words because I know that believing Mormons are not simple minded people, just like those who no longer accept the Mormon truth claims are not apostate, anti-mormons. Keep the discourse around ideas, and do your best to defend them with sound well thought out rationale, otherwise you run the risk of looking a bit juvenile.

If you need a name to call me Dcharle will work fine…

Dcharle it is.

The irony here is you scolded me for using the word Apostate in its proper context (someone who has renounced their faith) as "not helpful to the discourse" while unleashing that beautiful string of insults and invective. I also admire your use of words juxtaposed with a disclaimer that you do not use those words. Clever!

Disagree with me as you want but that gives support my theory that your invoking "offenseasensitiviy" was simply a way to attempt to control the dialogue.

Certainly you have given me a beautiful display of your attitude towards your former coreligionists and a good attitudinal background in which to nest your theories on Joseph Smith's claim to be a prophet of God.

Edited September 10, 2012 by KevinG

[KevinG]

I am just agnostic...it would hurt very much for someone to call me "apostate". If there is a true Church, I believe this one would be it. I will never become anti-Mormon.

By that description you have not renounced or left your faith tradition and therefore it would be improper to refer to you as apostate.

[Danzo]

Most disaffected members have not sent a letter in to have their names removed from church records, therefore technically not ex-mormon.

Secondly, the label "apostate"does bring up connotations of the past. In the early years Danites were sent to exterminate some apostates.

When reading about MMM on the thread the other day I did a little research on BY. There was also another massacre I believe in the northern part of Utah. The Morrisites apparently left the belief and several were killed for being apostates.

Disaffected seems to fit more where apostate is more in line with anti mormon, imo.

Can you elaborate on this "morrisite" group?

[KevinG]

Can you elaborate on this "morrisite" group?

Nothing about Danites or Brigham here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrisite_War

[ERayR]

Most disaffected members have not sent a letter in to have their names removed from church records, therefore technically not ex-mormon.

Secondly, the label "apostate"does bring up connotations of the past. In the early years Danites were sent to exterminate some apostates.

When reading about MMM on the thread the other day I did a little research on BY. There was also another massacre I believe in the northern part of Utah. The Morrisites apparently left the belief and several were killed for being apostates.

Disaffected seems to fit more where apostate is more in line with anti mormon, imo.

Morrisites:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrisite_War

Edited September 10, 2012 by ERayR

[ERayR]

Morrisites:

http://en.wikipedia....i/Morrisite_War

Oops KevinG beat me